WP8 Multitasking Behavior

[AngryNil]

The Touchpad lags. Sorry.

 

[a5cent]

Hey c8m6p. You make some good points, but I think you are confusing a few things. Maybe I can help focus your frustration at the correct entity

WP8 needed to make Multitasking function closer to the way iOS operates. Unfortunately from what I've seen so far, it doesn't. I love WP7, but this is a huge let down for me. Multitasking just feels limited and not really like multitasking at all. Not sure how MS could've overlooked this, and not sure why they did either.

Apps that aren't in the foreground are not necessarily tombstoned. Just as you say, tomestoned apps are removed from memory, but devices with 512 MB RAM can keep multiple apps in memory without tomestoning them. These background apps are simply "dormant". Resuming a dormant app should occur near instantaneously. Unfortunately, some apps aren't able to do this correctly. Upon reactivation, some apps go through all the motions as though they had been relaunched from scratch, even though they were just dormant. This is rather stupid and I agree it takes much too long. Of course that explanation doesn't make your life any better, but the point is this isn't WP's fault, but rather the fault of the app developers not doing their job.

Open an app, navigate within the app, and hit the windows button. Then open the app again from the start screen, the app reboots from scratch as opposed to resuming in the same place you left off.

This isn't related to multitasking at all. I don't know if WP8 will do anything differently here (some say it will), but at least for WP7 this is related to how WP's "back stack" works. It must work this way for WP's physical back-key to behave correctly (you can probably find more info on the web). Furthermore, Microsoft believes tapping a live tile should behave consistently... basically, it's an app launcher... it launches apps... always. In other words: it's not a bug, it's a feature

No way to close apps outright from the multitasking menu. Defendands of this say there's "No need becasue windows phone tombstones the apps so they don't drain battery even though they are open". The truth is that the apps aren't even really open, switching to them from the multitasking menu basically restarts them from scratch. Hence why they don't drain any battery when they're supposedly "open".

As I stated above, apps aren't necessarily closed at all. They are only closed if the device doesn't have enough RAM to keep them open. Anyway, I don't think you actually made your point as why you would need the ability to close apps outright. So what is it?

It looked like incoming calls are just going to be done via push notifications and nothing more. And the "integration" is nothing more than a link to open the Skype app in the people hub

I don't know how incoming calls will be dealt with. I agree this needs to be better than just a push notification. Integration does go a LOT deeper than just the link in the people hub though, most notably background VOIP processing. This allows you to keep on talking in Skype, Viber etc. while navigating through other apps. In WP7 leaving Skype puts it to sleep and cuts off your communications channel.

 

[c8m6p]

Thanks for the response.. I do agree that some apps function better than others when it comes to multitasking.. There are a definetely a lot of sub-par written apps but the good ones are definetely good. Getting better apps on WP8 is a different subject, all together though.

As far as the home screen being an "app launcher", okay, if that's a feature I don't really get it. If a program is open, why should clicking on an icon kill the existing instance of the program and open a new one from scratch? And the behavior is not consistent, either. I can get several instances of the "messaging" hub open at times but that isn't the case with other apps.

I just think behavior should be consistent. Clicking on an "already-open" app on the homescreen (ir if you get a toast notification for that app!) should just relaunch it where you left off previously, i.e. bring that app to the foreground. That's more "true multitasking behavior" in my mind.

As far as why we need an x button? Some of us don't want 8 programs open at once, you said it yourself, apps can be kept in memory, so therefore to free up memory you'd want to close programs. An x button would be the quickest, most efficient method to close out of apps, without having to go into the app and press "back" several times to close out of it.

If WP has true multitasking (i.e. background processes) then including a little "x" to close the program would be the most efficient way to close out of a program and stop the background processes.

Thanks for the polite response, by the way, it's refreshing to see someone not take criticism as a personal insult. I can't stand iOS and don't want to go to Android, but I think WP has potential and I've used it for a long time so I see its shortcomings. Even still I think the Lumia 920 is the best phone out there and will probably get it when it comes out

Hey c8m6p. You make some good points, but I think you are confusing a few things. Maybe I can help focus your frustration at the correct entity

Apps that aren't in the foreground are not necessarily tombstoned. Just as you say, tomestoned apps are removed from memory, but devices with 512 MB RAM can keep multiple apps in memory without tomestoning them. These background apps are simply "dormant". Resuming a dormant app should occur near instantaneously. Unfortunately, some apps aren't able to do this correctly. Upon reactivation, some apps go through all the motions as though they had been relaunched from scratch, even though they were just dormant. This is rather stupid and I agree it takes much too long. Of course that explanation doesn't make your life any better, but the point is this isn't WP's fault, but rather the fault of the app developer not doing their job.

This isn't related to multitasking at all. I don't know if WP8 will do anything differently here (some say it will), but at least for WP7 this is related to how WP's "back stack" works. It must work this way for WP's physical back-key to behave correctly (you can probably find more info on the web). Furthermore, Microsoft believes tapping a live tile should behave consistently... basically, it's an app launcher... it launches apps... always. In other words: it's not a bug, it's a feature

As I stated above, apps aren't necessarily closed at all. They are only closed if the device doesn't have enough RAM to keep them open. Anyway, I don't think you actually made your point as why you would need the ability to close apps outright. So what is it?

I don't know how incoming calls will be dealt with. I agree this needs to be better than just a push notification. Integration does go a LOT deeper than just the link in the people hub though, most notably background VOIP processing. This allows you to keep on talking in Skype, Viber etc. while navigating through other apps. In WP7 leaving Skype puts it to sleep and cuts off your communications channel.

 

[brmiller1976]

The Touchpad lags. Sorry.

The TouchPad isn't really a good example of a webOS mobile device.

 

[AngryNil]

The TouchPad isn't really a good example of a webOS mobile device.

Why? Dual-core Snapdragon S3 and 1GB RAM.

 

[a5cent]

I just think behavior should be consistent. Clicking on an "already-open" app on the home-screen (ir if you get a toast notification for that app!) should just relaunch it where you left off previously, i.e. bring that app to the foreground. That's more "true multitasking behavior" in my mind.

Consistency means that the same action always leads to the same outcome. Having the same action (tapping a live tile) lead to differing outcomes (launching an app OR bring an app to the foreground) would be inconsistent. WP's current behavior may not be what you want, but you can't argue that it isn't consistent.

As far as the home screen being an "app launcher", okay, if that's a feature I don't really get it. If a program is open, why should clicking on an icon kill the existing instance of the program and open a new one from scratch?

This baffled me for a long time too. Unfortunately I don't know how to explain it concisely. Maybe someone else here does. Otherwise you'll just have to trust me that Microsoft knew what they were doing. Changing this behavior to what you suggest could potentially lead to some really funky back-button behavior under certain circumstances and you wouldn't like that either. iOS and Android encountered similar issues and advised their app developers to integrate software based back buttons into their apps as a workaround... I feel adding a back button to software when we already have a hardware back butting isn't elegant either (lesser of two evils?).

If WP has true multitasking (i.e. background processes) then including a little "x" to close the program would be the most efficient way to close out of a program and stop the background processes.

Well, maybe. How often have you wished for the ability to close the dialer, the app from which you make phone calls, from the task-switcher which would amount to hanging up (I've never felt that urge so far)? Remember that VOIP calls will work exactly the same way. Hang up and background VOIP processing gets terminated. For music and file transfers background processing doesn't get terminated even if you do close the app, so an explicit close function wouldn't do anything in that scenario (background music can be paused/stopped from the lock screen and background file transfers can be paused/cancelled from their download page). That leaves background location as the only viable candidate, but even then it's just a shortcut for entering the navigation app and pressing the back button. Don't know... maybe I'm wrong, but that single use-case isn't entirely convincing. Then again, I haven't seen WP8 yet either so I reserve the right to change my mind

Thanks for the polite response, by the way, it's refreshing to see someone not take criticism as a personal insult.

Why should I? I'm not the guy that designed WP... wish I was though

 

[AngryNil]

No one here realistically wants full multitasking on a current day phone, unless you don't care for great user experience, maintained performance and smoothness. If you don't care for those, you should be on Android anyway.

Background agents already exist for Windows Phone. What you want is an expanded range of them. There's no need to resort to buzzwords like "full multitasking", that is not the solution for mobile.

 

[Panathas]

I don't have problems with the WP multi-tasking approach. BUT, please find a solution for instant messengers! Whatsapp in that form is a pain. Messengers HAVE to start in less than 1 second!

 

[c8m6p]

Consistency means that the same action always leads to the same outcome. Having the same action (tapping a live tile) lead to differing outcomes (launching an app OR bring an app to the foreground) would be inconsistent. WP's current behavior may not be what you want, but you can't argue that it isn't consistent.

I guess. But there are really only two situations to what I'm describing.

1. App is closed. Click on the app on the home screen, app opens from scratch.

2. App is open. Click on the app on the home screen, app comes to foreground, where you last left off, with no load times (!) since the app is already open.

That's really it. I don't think it's too confusing, and to me, makes more sense than the way it's currently done.

This baffled me for a long time too. Unfortunately I don't know how to explain it concisely. Maybe someone else here does. Otherwise you'll just have to trust me that Microsoft knew what they were doing. Changing this behavior to what you suggest could potentially lead to some really funky back-button behavior under certain circumstances and you wouldn't like that either. iOS and Android encountered similar issues and advised their app developers to integrate software based back buttons into their apps as a workaround... I feel adding a back button to software when we already have a hardware back butting isn't elegant either (lesser of two evils?).

I hear you. Agreed, having two back buttons is definetely not elegant. I don't mind the way it currently works, but I wish the browser had its own back button independent of the hardware back button.

Well, maybe. How often have you wished for the ability to close the dialer, the app from which you make phone calls, from the task-switcher which would amount to hanging up (I've never felt that urge so far)? Remember that VOIP calls will work exactly the same way. Hang up and background VOIP processing gets terminated. For music and file transfers background processing doesn't get terminated even if you do close the app, so an explicit close function wouldn't do anything in that scenario (background music can be paused/stopped from the lock screen and background file transfers can be paused/cancelled from their download page). That leaves background location as the only viable candidate, but even then it's just a shortcut for entering the navigation app and pressing the back button. Don't know... maybe I'm wrong, but that single use-case isn't entirely convincing. Then again, I haven't seen WP8 yet either so I reserve the right to change my mind

Why should I? I'm not the guy that designed WP... wish I was though

Well, here's another example. Say I'm looking at photos on facebook and one of my friends wants to use my phone. Therefore, I want to close out of facebook and give my friend the phone.

The way it works now: Hit back, hit back, hit back, hit back, hit back.

The way it "should" work (imo): hold back button, click x.

A more elegant solution, no? I can understand your argument of how apps don't really hog up too many resources, which is great for the OS. But sometimes you just want to close an app as quickly as possible.

Again, thanks for the responses. I definetely understand your side of the argument as well.

 

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

I guess. But there are really only two situations to what I'm describing.

1. App is closed. Click on the app on the home screen, app opens from scratch.

2. App is open. Click on the app on the home screen, app comes to foreground, where you last left off, with no load times (!) since the app is already open.

That's really it. I don't think it's too confusing, and to me, makes more sense than the way it's currently done.

I'm not sure, I personally like it the way it currently is. It reads to me as a justification for the X button to close windows though this new format. After all, I'm actually the weird one... if I reclick an app I want it to reload from scratch. I'm evidently weird as a result, but that's just the way I am.

Well, here's another example. Say I'm looking at photos on facebook and one of my friends wants to use my phone. Therefore, I want to close out of facebook and give my friend the phone.

The way it works now: Hit back, hit back, hit back, hit back, hit back.

The way it "should" work (imo): hold back button, click x.

A more elegant solution, no? I can understand your argument of how apps don't really hog up too many resources, which is great for the OS. But sometimes you just want to close an app as quickly as possible.

Again, thanks for the responses. I definetely understand your side of the argument as well.

Are you holding the phone while you show them it? If so, perhaps pushing the Start button could work, although just be careful not to reopen it by accident by pushing back one too many times, as I've done! If not, then they could quite easily just reopen the app anyway and find it that way... I'm not sure if there's really a case here, although I understand the point you're trying to get across.

 

[a5cent]

Well, here's another example. Say I'm looking at photos on facebook and one of my friends wants to use my phone. Therefore, I want to close out of facebook and give my friend the phone.

The way it works now: Hit back, hit back, hit back, hit back, hit back.

The way it "should" work (imo): hold back button, click x.

A more elegant solution, no? I can understand your argument of how apps don't really hog up too many resources, which is great for the OS. But sometimes you just want to close an app as quickly as possible.

Again, thanks for the responses. I definitely understand your side of the argument as well.

I see your point too. I'm not arguing against it either. I'm just trying to put myself into Microsoft's shoes. Microsoft would likely tell you to press the windows-button and pass your friend the device. The windows-button IS the closing button as far as WP is concerned. Why care that the Facebook app is still in memory? Users shouldn't have to think about technical details like that. That is so 1990's, a.k.a. androidish

Microsoft would likely also add, and I would agree, that an app which builds up such a deep back-stack (half a dozen clicks to exit) is simply poorly designed. I can tolerate pressing the back-button up too three times to exit an app, but any more gets very frustrating. H3ll, deep back-stacks are nerve wrecking one way or another, even without the intent of closing the app. The back-button simply shouldn't be a major part of an apps navigational experience. Those apps that do use the back-stack in this way are often remakes of iOS or Android apps, where the developer failed or refused to design a UI more appropriate for WP. It sounds like the Facebook app you are using is one of them.

So, what is Microsoft to do, given that such poorly designed apps with deep back-stacks exist? Add a feature to close apps from the task-switcher? Possibly, but I'm sure Microsoft is worried this would encourage even more developers to make use of deep back-stacks, as it makes those apps halfway tolerable. I'm fairly certain this unintended "encouragement" is Microsoft's main reason for holding back on this feature.

And yes, as always, exceptions exist... IE being one of them, were deep back-stacks do make sense. As far as I can tell, these types of apps are exceptional cases, and I find exceptional cases shouldn't be handled in a general way by the OS. Hence, for apps such as IE, I would prefer a "close tabs and exit" entry in the menu.

All just random thoughts...

 

[X0LARIUM]

I don't know why people can't accept flaws in an OS. Back when I had HD7, WinPhone 7.5 Mango, WhatsApp did take a while to load. ANd this was the case with most apps.
That's that. I think this is called positive criticism. Though I want this to be solved, I don't care if it is a coding error, OS issue or its cause of the Bermuda Triangle. I just want it to be solved, like the OP.

 

[AngryNil]

I don't know why people can't accept flaws in an OS. Back when I had HD7, WinPhone 7.5 Mango, WhatsApp did take a while to load. ANd this was the case with most apps.

I don't think anyone is complaining about the general vibe of the post, but rather the specifics - incorrect identification of what is wrong and a suggested resolution that is imperfect.

Microsoft is providing a background VoIP API so that calls can be received in the background and can be continued in the background. Microsoft needs to provide something similar for chat clients so Whatsapp can keep receiving messages in the background reliably.

Of course, they also have to fix the silly relaunching behaviour - apps should resume from the start screen and when you get a push notification from Whatsapp, for example. For most apps, like say your RSS client, that doesn't require any change to "tombstoning", app freezing or the implementation of "full multitasking".

 

[a5cent]

@rockstarzzz Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I missed your post.

It's not all up to Microsoft. Developers need to make sure their apps work correctly too. In the example you've provided, it's the developer's fault, not that of Microsoft.

If it was up to me, I would force-remove these apps from the marketplace until they are corrected, but that would drastically lower the WP app count... as it is now, app count is more important than quality, so that ain't happening.

"resume" screen has nothing to do with devs. None of the devs can actually get rid of that screen, if they can, they would have.

Where did I say developers had direct control over the "resume" message (they do have indirect control over it though)? The OP was referring to any app that wasn't in the foreground as being tombestoned. That was incorrect. Most (if not all) of the apps in the task-switcher are simply dormant. Switching to any dormant app should be almost instantaneous, in which case the OS won't need to display the "resuming" message. Any other behavior is a bug, unless the app really was tombestoned, in which case any non-trivial app is unlikely to get around that message being shown due to it being relaunched.

Gimme an example of an app with FTS please? Are there any apps that don't show me a resume screen or don't load from the scratch?

I can fast-task-switch between my four most used apps all day long (Viber, MyStocks, Wonder Reader, IE) without ever encountering the "resume" message. Are we possibly not talking about the same thing?

 

[a5cent]

Though I want this to be solved, I don't care if it is a coding error, OS issue or its cause of the Bermuda Triangle. I just want it to be solved, like the OP.

I see your point my friend. On the other hand, as we are publicly complaining about something, shouldn't we at least make certain we are directing our criticism at those who can actually do something about it? Isn't that much more likely to have the desired affect?

Microsoft certainly is far from perfect *cough*, but they take far too much FLAK for things they have little or no control over (that is the price they must pay for supporting an entire PC hardware industry and allowing any user to install anything from the internet)

 

[brmiller1976]

Why? Dual-core Snapdragon S3 and 1GB RAM.

It's a poorly-conceived effort to dump webOS on an Android tablet.

I'd look more to the Pre 2 or Pre 3 as a "mobile device."

 

[c8m6p]

Microsoft is providing a background VoIP API so that calls can be received in the background and can be continued in the background. Microsoft needs to provide something similar for chat clients so Whatsapp can keep receiving messages in the background reliably.

Of course, they also have to fix the silly relaunching behaviour - apps should resume from the start screen and when you get a push notification from Whatsapp, for example.

Thanks for the response. I am the OP, I apologize for mislabeling these issues as "tombstoning" or "full multitasking", as that's not the proper nomenclature for the issues I'm describing.

What you're describing is 100% correct. If MS 'fixes' the above issues then it would certainly make using the OS a quicker, more efficient experience. There's no reason why a push notification for an App that's already open should force the user to wait until the current instance of the app is killed and a brand new one is open. It should just resume the current instance of the App.

My hope is that MS realizes this as a "bug" of sorts and offers a fix in WP8. If it isn't fixed upon WP8 launch, I'm getting the sense that the behavior is by design, for some reason.

I've seen preview videos of the native photo app in WP8 "resuming" as opposed to "restarting" upon being clicked on from the home screen.

But then again, the Skype video as mentioned in my original post "restarted" when clicked on from the home screen.

I guess all will be revealed on Monday. We've waited long enough, let's see what's in store.

 

[AngryNil]

It's a poorly-conceived effort to dump webOS on an Android tablet.

I'd look more to the Pre 2 or Pre 3 as a "mobile device."

I don't agree with "poorly conceived", since it wasn't like they rushed it out after a month of development, but fair enough if you want to compare phone vs phone. I don't think you can make the case that the Pres are smooth on a iOS (and debatably, WP) level.

My hope is that MS realizes this as a "bug" of sorts and offers a fix in WP8. If it isn't fixed upon WP8 launch, I'm getting the sense that the behavior is by design, for some reason.

Absolutely. If it's not fixed, then it will simply indicate to me that Microsoft isn't building a product for me to use. And I'm one of their little 3%. If they are building a product that even I don't like, then I wish them luck with Windows Phone.

All these problems definitely do add up. Microsoft's biggest ace in the hole for me is that it seems that LG will be making the sole Nexus phone this year. If it was Samsung, HTC or Sony, I'd probably jump on it.