Petitioning to make Microsofts Windows Phone open source.

[AgentTheGreat]

EDIT: This poll is about making Windows Phone 8.1 (even partly) open source, and is not about Windows 10 Mobile because obviously that would be impossible due to so much shared code between Windows 10 and Windows 10 Mobile.

Hello guys.

I have been around on Windows Central for a relatively long time, and I watched as the platform slowly went to its grave step by step, mostly because of Microsoft's own doing. But that's not what I'm spending any more time on to debate anymore. I just point out that I was very bitter about the whole thing on Windows(Phone)Central for a long time.

Since Microsoft has given up on mobile completely (Andromeda aside as a mysterious project that may or may not be a phone or a tablet or a foldable new category) I got dreaming how nice it would have been if Microsoft, as embracing of Open Source initiative they've become recently, decided to open source Windows Phone 8.1. Maybe not 10 Mobile - because it has too much operational Windows 10 in it - but just 8.1 as an offshoot of Windows 8.1.

In other news, recently it was revealed that Microsoft is embracing PWAs or Progressive Web Apps (in coordination with Google) which means there will be a host of new website/apps that all OS's will embrace (Apple will have to join in too eventually).

So my mind married these two ideas: what if we could make Microsoft open source a dead platform (WP8.1), and developers could introduce newer versions of IE there where PWAs are supported...we could have a great little ecosystem of WPs that are as modern as they come, and is maintained by a Linux-like community of developers coming up with awesome things.

Those who think an Android launcher can do the same thing need not comment honestly, you've missed the whole point of Windows Phone from the Start (pun intended).

What do you guys think? Do you think Microsoft would do that, or are patents a problem for them or what? Do you think we can get a big enough community together to petition for something like this?

 

[DOGC_Kyle]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

Far, far too much code is used in Windows.
You have to remember that WP8 was based on Windows NT, which backs every modern version of Windows on every device. Name any component that makes up the OS, and unless it's front-end (like the start screen maybe), it's probably shared with something currently in use on desktop.
W10M is even worse given that it shares almost everything with literally what MS is working on right now.

They would literally have to open-source most of Windows (basically everything MS has made over the past decade) for this to be worthwhile.

WP7 is more likely. I don't think CE is still in use anywhere (made obsolete by Windows IoT), nor is Silverlight. Not sure what other major components there are - DX is one though - so they'd need to go back through WP7 and remove all of that BEFORE they can do anything with open-source. Silverlight they almost certainly could, but the rest will take serious work - and it's really not worthwhile given that there is very little use for the CE-based WP7, or for Silverlight.


Also, not sure if you're aware of what happened with webOS, which is where a lot of WP fans came from - it DID get open-sourced by HP, but it's not very active at all. The current contributors have little interest in supporting the original hardware - instead focusing on Android hardware. It's not the kind of thing you'd want to use daily, it's more just for fun.
Open-source WP7 or WP8 would likely see the same thing - won't really help existing users, simply because there are so few. Pretty much any WP fan will be using W10M, rather than WP7/8, largely due to UWP and continued support (many apps are either broken or discontinued on WP7/8), and overall in terms of features, it's much better (albeit less elegant) than WP7/8.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

Far, far too much code is used in Windows.
You have to remember that WP8 was based on Windows NT, which backs every modern version of Windows on every device. Name any component that makes up the OS, and unless it's front-end (like the start screen maybe), it's probably shared with something currently in use on desktop.
W10M is even worse given that it shares almost everything with literally what MS is working on right now.

They would literally have to open-source most of Windows (basically everything MS has made over the past decade) for this to be worthwhile.

WP7 is more likely. I don't think CE is still in use anywhere (made obsolete by Windows IoT), nor is Silverlight. Not sure what other major components there are - DX is one though - so they'd need to go back through WP7 and remove all of that BEFORE they can do anything with open-source. Silverlight they almost certainly could, but the rest will take serious work - and it's really not worthwhile given that there is very little use for the CE-based WP7, or for Silverlight.


Also, not sure if you're aware of what happened with webOS, which is where a lot of WP fans came from - it DID get open-sourced by HP, but it's not very active at all. The current contributors have little interest in supporting the original hardware - instead focusing on Android hardware. It's not the kind of thing you'd want to use daily, it's more just for fun.
Open-source WP7 or WP8 would likely see the same thing - won't really help existing users, simply because there are so few. Pretty much any WP fan will be using W10M, rather than WP7/8, largely due to UWP and continued support (many apps are either broken or discontinued on WP7/8), and overall in terms of features, it's much better (albeit less elegant) than WP7/8.

Well, I think there are far more WP8.1 users than there are W10M users, given the fact that many better selling hardware did not get an upgrade to W10M. In the W10M wold only the 950 and XL, plus maybe a few HP Elite devices really exist. Then there is the 6x range that Microsoft made themselves, which wasn't really a big deal.
Most WP and WMs are, I think, still running WP8.1 and not 10M. It would be nice if we could have stats on this.

Regarding the WP8.1 being based on NT, I'm not sure because I don't know Windows to its core, hardware abstraction layer but wouldn't you think Microsoft could keep the core of the OS closed source but open up the higher level code? I'm sure there is a line that can be drawn to both protect Microsoft's IP and also allow frameworks to be opened up, like what happened with .NET Framework.

P.S. those who really find W10M appealing should already feel completely at home with Android. Honestly IMO W10M was definitely not a successor to whatever WP was: it was slow and laggy and incomplete. Android is much more mature I think and has fixed a lot of the problems that it had before, and is certainly more mature than W10M. So I think in general W10M users would move on to Android anyway, and as I said I don't expect them to be the bigger majority of the Windows on phones platform.

 

[DOGC_Kyle]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

Regarding the WP8.1 being based on NT, I'm not sure because I don't know Windows to its core, hardware abstraction layer but wouldn't you think Microsoft could keep the core of the OS closed source but open up the higher level code? I'm sure there is a line that can be drawn to both protect Microsoft's IP and also allow frameworks to be opened up, like what happened with .NET Framework.

Yes.
The NT base doesn't really matter a lot - but here's the thing, you're not getting an open-source OS in that case. Silverlight could absolutely go open-source, but what would people do with that? The shell used on WP8 could probably go open-source (although it is likely that tiles and such are still in use on W10 which means this cannot happen, in addition they are pulled from online too), but again, of little use - would really only allow it to be brought onto Android as a launcher or something.

Open-source is not a way of modifying software on existing hardware, the primary benefit would be making it work on other hardware. While yes, it CAN be used to make changes then rebuild and redeploy onto older hardware, this would require a variety of tools for unlocking the hardware and reflashing the modified components. Most of which could have been done anyways without the need for open-source.


I don't know the numbers for WP8 vs W10M, but active WP8 users are probably few, and that number is not going up. Even with open-source, you still can't backport UWP, you can't get most apps, you won't have the low-level access to make emulators much better (than running them as a normal app), you can't get back any online functionality. Other than maybe some customization or enabling some hidden broken features that never got finished, much less polished, there's not much of a point.

And there's probably a reason that MS dropped these legacy components anyways. Silverlight was replaced by UWP, WP8 shell was replaced by the XAML shell. If the source became available, I bet that it would immediately become visible WHY MS dropped them. They weren't built to be expandable - and so they still won't be expandable. They needed to be re-written - which is what MS did - so why would anyone else want to use them instead of just writing their own?


I'm also guessing you've never used W10M? On the Elite x3 it is fast and polished like WP8 was, probably even better (comparing my x3 to my L920 with WP8.1). Absolutely in line with any modern phones. You are right that the design is a bit less cohesive, but it's not bad at all (still way better than Android, which has gotten better but is still not great). If you weren't disappointed with WP7>WP8>WP8.1 changes, you wouldn't be disappointed by WP8.1>W10M changes.


Anyways, back on topic: It would be cool to see a big open-source push from MS, but I would rather they use their time and resources to work on new, modern software - not the predecessors, which have few (if any) advantages from a development perspective.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

Yes.
The NT base doesn't really matter a lot - but here's the thing, you're not getting an open-source OS in that case. Silverlight could absolutely go open-source, but what would people do with that? The shell used on WP8 could probably go open-source (although it is likely that tiles and such are still in use on W10 which means this cannot happen, in addition they are pulled from online too), but again, of little use - would really only allow it to be brought onto Android as a launcher or something.

Open-source is not a way of modifying software on existing hardware, the primary benefit would be making it work on other hardware. While yes, it CAN be used to make changes then rebuild and redeploy onto older hardware, this would require a variety of tools for unlocking the hardware and reflashing the modified components. Most of which could have been done anyways without the need for open-source.


I don't know the numbers for WP8 vs W10M, but active WP8 users are probably few, and that number is not going up. Even with open-source, you still can't backport UWP, you can't get most apps, you won't have the low-level access to make emulators much better (than running them as a normal app), you can't get back any online functionality. Other than maybe some customization or enabling some hidden broken features that never got finished, much less polished, there's not much of a point.

And there's probably a reason that MS dropped these legacy components anyways. Silverlight was replaced by UWP, WP8 shell was replaced by the XAML shell. If the source became available, I bet that it would immediately become visible WHY MS dropped them. They weren't built to be expandable - and so they still won't be expandable. They needed to be re-written - which is what MS did - so why would anyone else want to use them instead of just writing their own?


I'm also guessing you've never used W10M? On the Elite x3 it is fast and polished like WP8 was, probably even better (comparing my x3 to my L920 with WP8.1). Absolutely in line with any modern phones. You are right that the design is a bit less cohesive, but it's not bad at all (still way better than Android, which has gotten better but is still not great). If you weren't disappointed with WP7>WP8>WP8.1 changes, you wouldn't be disappointed by WP8.1>W10M changes.


Anyways, back on topic: It would be cool to see a big open-source push from MS, but I would rather they use their time and resources to work on new, modern software - not the predecessors, which have few (if any) advantages from a development perspective.

I didn't mean for this open WP to run on older hardware, and I don't think I ever hinted at that. Also I'm not sure you are aware that Silverlight is long gone - it was a WP7 thing that WP8 and 8.1 supported, but the primary method of writing apps for WP8.1 was through WinRT or "Store" apps, which were the precursor to UWP and not the UWP itself. As a matter of fact the WinRT framework is still there and is the core of UWP even today, it's just that with UWP you can target specific functionality of each device like PCs, XBox and the phone and code for those.

So what I am suggesting only concerns WP8.1, and it's a way of looking at 8.1 the way the Linux community looks at their distributions. If we could, for example, upgrade an open source IE on WP8.1 with new features and add support for the PWAs in the process, or upgrade the Photos, dialer, messaging, etc. on 8.1 then we'd basically have a fork of WP without needing to modify the NT Kernel working inside.

Technically, there is no benefit that UWP brings that concerns the mobile device itself. UWP is only beneficial to the developer and eventually Microsoft: it was supposed to make the developer's job easier in creating a single app for multiple platforms, but there is nothing that UWP, as an idea, has that can benefit one single platform so "losing" UWP on WP8.1 really means nothing.

I have played around with W10M. Windows Phone's whole point was "fast and fluid" but I don't really get why the latest version of Android today, is somehow worse than the latest build of W10M. Just go to the messaging app on WM, and move around the environment. Look at the animations - or rather, lack there of - and see for yourself how W10M is not "fast and fluid" even compared to Android, but I really don't want to get into that debate because I have very strong opinions on W10M and the direction Microsoft took with WP. Let's just say I strongly disagree with "If you weren't disappointed with WP7>WP8>WP8.1 changes, you wouldn't be disappointed by WP8.1>W10M changes." As I said, I've observed the whole thing from the very beginning to today. It can't be "polished" on Elite X3 unless the developers took special care of this one single model and added a bunch of effects and whole redesigns in some areas to make it much different than the W10M I know...which I don't think is the case.

 

[RumoredNow]

TL;DR

That's some mighty tall walls of text building up.

They don't even want to acknowledge they had WP7/8 or W10M as products at this point. Release the code to live on? Nah.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

TL;DR
They don't even want to acknowledge they had WP7/8 or W10M as products at this point. Release the code to live on? Nah.

I don't think they have a hostility towards those products. They just don't care, because they simply gave up and that's a done deal. Releasing the code wouldn't really bother them. It would become a side project like all of these small little things they do, or their employees do in their free time...like Orchard.

 

[DOGC_Kyle]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

So what I am suggesting only concerns WP8.1, and it's a way of looking at 8.1 the way the Linux community looks at their distributions. If we could, for example, upgrade an open source IE on WP8.1 with new features and add support for the PWAs in the process, or upgrade the Photos, dialer, messaging, etc. on 8.1 then we'd basically have a fork of WP without needing to modify the NT Kernel working inside.

At that point, why not use Android? Either way, it won't be "true WP" given the large number of components that almost certainly can't be open-sourced, and if you just wanted something that looks and feels like WP, you'd be better off forking Android and working from that point.

Basically what I'm saying, if you're gonna make an OS, you might as well start with a solid foundation that works on a variety of hardware, is designed to work with a large existing platform, and most importantly, is easily expanded and built upon. WP doesn't really meet any of those... so I don't think it is an ideal foundation for anything else.

You could build a "shell" on W10 using UWP and XAML and it would look and feel like WP (well, a bit different, but it's still pretty similar) without a ton of work.
You could rebuild the WP experience as an Android launcher, and it would take more work, but would look and feel like WP if done well.


Let's say mobile IE was open-source. Sure, you could add in PWAs. But you can also get the same thing from Edge, Chrome, Firefox, or any other browser - so why use an old version of IE? Furthermore, why fork IE when you could fork Chromium or any other open-source browser that already does everything you'd need it to? You could always build a WP-style UI around it.

If the intention is to continue using WP as-is (or on new hardware), then it would be a fun experiment, nothing more really.
If the intention is to build a new OS on top of WP (forking it), then it would retain most of WPs problems (as mentioned above), or you'd be rewriting large sections of it, possibly using other open-source solutions.
If the intention is to build an OS that looks and feels like WP, you could use anything, such as Android, webOS, Ubuntu.

Why else do you think MS essentially started fresh with W10M?


I would much rather MS working to open-source components of their current products - such as EdgeHTML (it's already separated from Edge itself), UWP, maybe even some apps (VS Code was a great start).

Open-sourcing implies that there is something of value in it, for other developers to use and expand on. I honestly can't think of anything like that in WP7 or 8.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

Open-sourcing implies that there is something of value in it, for other developers to use and expand on. I honestly can't think of anything like that in WP7 or 8.

I think what you are saying is WP is and was Android with a launcher. I really can't argue about that...anymore. The essence can't be easily described by words. If I felt that was readily possible, to use Android, the one OS we know neither Samsung nor LG nor Xiaomi can control to behave, I wouldn't really be thinking about WP at all. I'd just buy a good Droid and install Launcher 10 or whatever on it.

I actually made the poll to see how many people feel the way I feel. So far, not many. I'll wait for others to see if they join in.

 

[nate0]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

I actually made the poll to see how many people feel the way I feel. So far, not many. I'll wait for others to see if they join in.

I and many others feel the way you feel. There's too much IP wrapped up in it. Then there's converting closed source to open source. Tons of legal stuff tons of work compiling tons of work for what is no longer supported anymore. As nice as it sounds it will never happen.

Edit 1: Now here's an idea...how about all who Support the pole have to be willing and able to support Microsoft in this effort meaning they have to be prepared to build the open source packages and compile all that is needed. Maybe that might be a proposition closer to consideration instead of stating it as if Microsoft needs to or owes us an open source initiative...

Edit 2: I am going to take back my "As nice as it sounds it will never happen." Because as soon as I say the word never, I am asking for trouble...
@AgentTheGreat,
What is your plan? Are you planning to just see what people think, or do you really want to do this and be a part of it? I really do not see how this would be possible, unless Microsoft opened up their doors to a project team that they hosted or supported that was also a community of users like us who are willing to sign over time and effort to support it. However, I am also uneducated in what exactly or how this could be done, so who knows what other obstacles or paths would need to be looked at that maybe only internal Microsoft auditors would know about.

 

[LightenSkies]

I would see no point of opening up Windows Phone 8.1 let alone Windows 10 Mobile. With that said. I would rather see Microsoft unlock the bootloader on all there Lumia phones and make a damn android for the phone. Or best yet give us options to install any OS we want onto the Lumia's Though we all know none of that will ever happen. That is why you getting all the no votes. Cause they will not do it.

 

[jmshub]

As much as I loved Windows Phone, it failed in the marketplace when it had the full backing of Microsoft. How would it ever get any support as a poorly supported open source project? App support will dry up, and it'll continue to fail.

Not to mention as DOGC_Kyle said, Microsoft wouldn't open source this in a million years. There has got to be a ton of code that is shared with Windows.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

As much as I loved Windows Phone, it failed in the marketplace when it had the full backing of Microsoft. How would it ever get any support as a poorly supported open source project? App support will dry up, and it'll continue to fail.

Not to mention as DOGC_Kyle said, Microsoft wouldn't open source this in a million years. There has got to be a ton of code that is shared with Windows.

As I mentioned, the app support situation will change when PWAs are properly introduced. Everyone would agree to a single app standard, and you'd just enable support for that standard and BOOM. You have an ecosystem with as many apps as any other OS.

Then there is the idea of having a small WP project that is maintained by WP enthusiasts, and is not supposed to become a breakthrough, 3rd major OS in the market. The point is not to go head to head with Android and iOS: we just want to keep WP alive, having Kickstarter hardware choosing to use WP as a lightweight, fast, modern OS...just like they did with BLU Win HD w510u, BLU Win HD LTE x150q, and MCJ Madosma Q501.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

Re: Petitioning to make Microsoft make Windows Phone open source

I and many others feel the way you feel. There's too much IP wrapped up in it. Then there's converting closed source to open source. Tons of legal stuff tons of work compiling tons of work for what is no longer supported anymore. As nice as it sounds it will never happen.

Edit 1: Now here's an idea...how about all who Support the pole have to be willing and able to support Microsoft in this effort meaning they have to be prepared to build the open source packages and compile all that is needed. Maybe that might be a proposition closer to consideration instead of stating it as if Microsoft needs to or owes us an open source initiative...

Edit 2: I am going to take back my "As nice as it sounds it will never happen." Because as soon as I say the word never, I am asking for trouble...
@AgentTheGreat,
What is your plan? Are you planning to just see what people think, or do you really want to do this and be a part of it? I really do not see how this would be possible, unless Microsoft opened up their doors to a project team that they hosted or supported that was also a community of users like us who are willing to sign over time and effort to support it. However, I am also uneducated in what exactly or how this could be done, so who knows what other obstacles or paths would need to be looked at that maybe only internal Microsoft auditors would know about.

The whole point of open sourcing the project would be to offload support to the community.

I would be a part of the plan, and I would develop for Windows Phone if it were open sourced (as a matter of fact I have an app coming out in a month or so specifically targeting WP8.1, to show what we missed. Will work on W10M too).

As for the rest of your comment about how Microsoft would need to open the doors to a new project team, again, I point out they have done this multiple times with different projects on opensource.microsoft.com. I suggest you take a look.

 

[nate0]

@AgentTheGreat
What reasons do you see why Microsoft would not do this or would be reluctant?

 

[AgentTheGreat]

@AgentTheGreat
What reasons do you see why Microsoft would not do this or would be reluctant?

Well, honestly knowing Microsoft, doing something "cool" to excite the consumer space is just unlike them nowadays. To me, Windows 10 is just a pile of mediocrity and is a far cry from "needing Windows to wanting Windows to loving Windows". I'll just let the Mail and Calendar app do the talking for me on this one. But that's just how I feel about them now.

As for more serious reasons, I think (1) the amount of work needed to decide what to open up and what to keep closed source as others pointed out (just as an attempt at PR to win us over again) may be a deterrent, as well as (2) any patented stuff that's been used that just can't be released.

Also from a strategic perspective, if Microsoft does have any plans for their own devices then (3) maybe they would be reluctant to create any type of "competition" - even though I'd argue from the looks of it they aren't going to target the mass consumer space anyway and their plans only concern the enterprise.

But I think the most likely reason is that they just don't care to even think about this. I am attempting to bring it to their attention.

To summarize, I think if they take the time and put some effort in to release WP in a half-closed, half-open, extensible state then they can gain back through PR the consumer loyalty they terribly lost with one mistake after another. And it goes well with their new Open Source loving side. They could leave the OS to those employees and communities who really loved working on stuff in a fun way, instead of in a "we got to beat Apple and Google" way since they already have projects like this.
Also the project does have potential as PWAs, unlike UWP, are going to have a future. WP can still remain a Microsoft brand and keep the Microsoft name in the traditional *consumer* mobile space without needing much heavy lifting from them.

 

[DOGC_Kyle]

release WP in a half-closed, half-open, extensible state then they can gain back through PR the consumer loyalty

IMO this will do more harm than good.

Releasing an unfinished, old, outdated product that doesn't even run on new hardware? Yes, it might be free, and yes, open source community may work on it and improve it. But do you really want this to be anyone's first interaction with WP?
It got a ton of bad PR when it was polished, active, and new - how do you expect it to go now?
I know you're suggesting it's not to compete with the big two, but if not, it's probably not generating any PR anyways.


If PWAs have such a future, I do think the best way is for a new open-source project for it. Not WP. If MS wants to open-source everything that makes PWAs work (for example EdgeHTML I'm guessing, not 100% sure as I haven't looked into PWAs a lot), that would be the better way to go.

It's also likely easier for them to build something with the intent of it being open-source, rather than basically having to go through everything in WP and make a presumably large number of changes to suit open-source. It's very easy to start a new open-source project; extremely difficult to go back through an entire OS worth of code (which is some cases may date back many, many years), and figure out if it can be open-sourced.

Open-source shouldn't exist just to feel good - it should have something real to contribute. If they're going to open-source anything, it should be the active projects that were built to be expandable - not the old projects that were cancelled for that exact reason.

 

[AgentTheGreat]

But do you really want this to be anyone's first interaction with WP?

Seriously?! WP is DEAD! There WILL BE NO MORE INTERACTION, EVER! That is, if what I suggest won't happen.

I still get the feeling you think I'm talking about a mass market release where everyone gets invited to marvel at the new OS of the future! That's absolutely not what I am suggesting.
As I said, there are multiple open source projects you don't even hear about, and there are many people working on them, each using the product the way they want. The Orchard CMS is an example.

I am simply suggesting doing the same with WP. Yes, I realize that's an entire OS compared to the previous projects, but the concept certainly won't be new.

And who says the new version wouldn't run on new hardware?
And who says the WP code wasn't scaleable?

Even the WP7 code was reusable. It was just that the CE core didn't fit Microsoft's vision of having a single OS and converging all of these together. And then you go on to assume that it was the code's fault...actually no, it was Microsoft's fault. They could have easily added features to WP8.1 and kept going, their strategic vision kept changing, making that path inconvenient for them.

As far as I am concerned, as a developer, a code base giving you that much tuned performance, capable of receiving such big updates as the notification center, etc. is perfectly good and capable of scale. What it would scale into, was not what Microsoft wanted and that's all. They didn't want just a phone OS and that's why they killed it.
Those who created WP7, 7.5, 8, 8.1 were certainly no newbies and amateurs at writing extendable code.

You wouldn't get big OEMs creating WPs. You would probably get versions of WP running on Android devices; or you'd get small OEMs who have previously experimented with WP and WM like BLU. The point is, if it is open sourced and people actually get a chance to work on it you *can* get something worthwhile out of it.
As for your argument about how back when it had support from Microsoft and was "polished" it didn't make it big, (1) actually Microsoft was lousy at supporting it, always being behind the trend and having some crappy apps and (2) the app situation doomed it and as I originally said, I see potential in PWAs to come and mitigate the situation in not so far off future.

 

[nate0]

I personally would rather see Microsoft stop horsing around and do it right this time around. So what no more Lumias. Now what? Microsoft needs to stop and think what they need to do next from a "Windows for every Person" perspective. Andromeda might be it, but I have a funny feeling it's not...

 

[AgentTheGreat]

I personally would rather see Microsoft stop horsing around and do it right this time around. So what no more Lumias. Now what? Microsoft needs to stop and think what they need to do next from a "Windows for every Person" perspective. Andromeda might be it, but I have a funny feeling it's not...

I have the same feeling. It seems to me Microsoft is done with the consumer space altogether, and basically what I am asking is "now that you're leaving, please leave that project to us".