02-19-2015 08:16 AM
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  1. missionsparta's Avatar
    Now that all the "I hate RT" cry babies have gotten their way, where do real Windows Tablets go from here?

    Let's be honest. The Surface Pro line are not really tablets. They are laptops disguised as tablets. They are made to replace your laptop. The RT devices were more affordable and not geared to those that wanted a laptop, but more something in line with an iPad. So why people that wanted a Pro (obviously looking for a laptop replacement) cried about the RT (something completely different than what they were looking for) is beyond me. That is like consumers looking at MacBook, b*tching that the iPad is a pile of junk and should be killed off.

    I unfortunately just veered off my original question - now that RT is going to be long forgotten, what happens with the next line of Surfaces? I hate to tell you guys, but Windows 10 is not tablet friendly. It is just a frankienstined desktop, and desktops have never done well on real tablets. The only real option I see is 7"-8" devices running the same version OS as Windows Phones, which I guess would be fine, but I just wish they would clarify this. Because right now, Microsoft has left their true tablet customers out to dry.
    Last edited by missionsparta; 01-24-2015 at 05:59 AM.
    01-24-2015 05:48 AM
  2. astondg's Avatar
    The same OS, Windows 10, will run on phones, tablets & desktops. In 'tablet mode' it still looks just as tablet friendly as W8.1 to me, is there something particular that you think won't work?

    Also as far as I can tell MS has made no specific announcement RE ARM tablets & WinRT. The fact that they are still telling devs to write Windows apps to prep for W10 suggests that the WinRT platform is still alive, we'll have to wait for an announcement on the WinRT only version of Windows.
    portalfocus likes this.
    01-24-2015 06:00 AM
  3. missionsparta's Avatar
    Best way I can describe it, is Windows 8 Start screen felt made for touchscreens. Using this update, the tablet mode feels clunky and just an after thought. To much concern seems to be put into the outdated start menu, instead of moving forward with touch.
    01-24-2015 06:07 AM
  4. JamesDax's Avatar
    smdh.... it just boggles the mind.
    HeyCori likes this.
    01-24-2015 07:32 AM
  5. rhapdog's Avatar
    The early builds of Windows 10 Tech Preview have been concentrating on Enterprise and Desktops. The Tablet Mode stuff will be enhanced long before it is released. They have said this a number of times.

    Trying the Tech Preview now and judging that MS is leaving out true Tablets is just not an accurate representation. It's in development. Leave feedback as to what it is you want through the feedback app. Microsoft is listening and is implementing so much as fast as they can.

    Patience. It's not there yet. But it is the most promising OS in the direction they are taking than any OS I could have imagined.
    01-24-2015 09:50 AM
  6. missionsparta's Avatar
    The early builds of Windows 10 Tech Preview have been concentrating on Enterprise and Desktops. The Tablet Mode stuff will be enhanced long before it is released. They have said this a number of times.

    Trying the Tech Preview now and judging that MS is leaving out true Tablets is just not an accurate representation. It's in development. Leave feedback as to what it is you want through the feedback app. Microsoft is listening and is implementing so much as fast as they can.

    Patience. It's not there yet. But it is the most promising OS in the direction they are taking than any OS I could have imagined.
    II'm tired of hearing "Microsoft is listening" if they truly were listening, they would have dumped Xbox Video and Music and brought us Zune back.
    emark858 likes this.
    01-24-2015 01:38 PM
  7. JamesDax's Avatar
    II'm tired of hearing "Microsoft is listening" if they truly were listening, they would have dumped Xbox Video and Music and brought us Zune back.
    lmao
    portalfocus likes this.
    01-24-2015 01:46 PM
  8. rhapdog's Avatar
    Zune was considered by quite a few to be a disaster. I for one don't want Zune.

    I want Xbox Video and Music, but working the way I want it to work.

    It's kind of like saying, "God always answers your prayers," and 10 million people pray to win the same lottery. God's answer is obviously going to be "No" to a lot of people, even though he may have been listening. (Doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, it's the principle I'm trying to convey here, so let's just stick with the idea of how that is said to work, not whether or not it's real.)

    If they have 100,000 people saying, "We want Zune back! Dump Xbox music and video!", but they have 10,000,000 people saying, "Don't bring back Zune, we want Xbox!", what are you going to get? I'm not saying this is what has happened, but it's worth thinking about at least.
    01-24-2015 01:49 PM
  9. YCSJ2980's Avatar
    I hope your are right. Cause right now there is a ton of work that needs to be done on the tablet side of things. The Charms bar options we had needs to be integrated into the action center we now have when we swipe in from the right. Especially the option to get back to the start screen, which far as I can tell can only be done now by pressing the home button or by finding the taskbar start button. Swiping down from the top needs to give us the app commands and the option that it currently gives us should be left to those coming in with a mouse cursor. And internet explorer needs to have a touch friendly version again for those of us who use the tablets. If this is there I can't seem to find it anymore. Also in tablet mode we appear to currently be unable to select anything from the desktop. We have to click off of tablet mode just to press the item in question.

    Yes it's a beta, I undertstand that, and all my feedback is being sent to microsoft, as I'm supposed to be doing as a beta tester and I hope they will be able to make a wonderful product when it does come to market. But wow there is a ton of work that needs to be done on the tablet side. At first I thought that they were launching windows 10 too late. Honestly now? I'm wondering if they will have enough time between now and then to make it actually work well.

    ​YCS
    01-24-2015 02:13 PM
  10. JamesDax's Avatar
    There are a lot of people that had no business installing this Tech Preview.
    01-24-2015 02:18 PM
  11. missionsparta's Avatar
    Zune was considered by quite a few to be a disaster. I for one don't want Zune.

    I want Xbox Video and Music, but working the way I want it to work.

    It's kind of like saying, "God always answers your prayers," and 10 million people pray to win the same lottery. God's answer is obviously going to be "No" to a lot of people, even though he may have been listening. (Doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, it's the principle I'm trying to convey here, so let's just stick with the idea of how that is said to work, not whether or not it's real.)

    If they have 100,000 people saying, "We want Zune back! Dump Xbox music and video!", but they have 10,000,000 people saying, "Don't bring back Zune, we want Xbox!", what are you going to get? I'm not saying this is what has happened, but it's worth thinking about at least.
    Te he funny thing is, if you put everything you want into Xbox Music and Video, you would end up with Zune. Xbox Music and Video doesn't do ONE thing better than Zune did.
    01-24-2015 04:17 PM
  12. Richard Culverhouse's Avatar
    I agree with the OP about the RTs. I say this as a proud Surface 2 owner.
    jwpear likes this.
    01-24-2015 04:58 PM
  13. Ebuka Allison's Avatar
    , "Don't bring back Zune, we want Xbox!",.
    Said no one ever
    01-24-2015 05:01 PM
  14. missionsparta's Avatar
    Said no one ever
    II know.. He literally is the first person I have ever heard say he prefers Xbox Music and Video over Zune. I'll bet my house, that if you did a survey there is way more people that want Zune back than those that want to just stick with Xbox.

    But this is how Microsoft works. They claim they are listening. So what happens on their suggestion page? There were ten million votes to bring Zune back....and they blocked anymore votes from going to it.

    We will listen to you.....then tell you 'No'.
    01-24-2015 05:25 PM
  15. Wevenhuis's Avatar
    I agree with the first sentiment of windows 10. Having used windows 7 on a deskop and now windows 8.1 on my surface pro, I see a deveopment happening where windows 10 seems geard more to the desktop/pc. A good look at windows 10 and skimming away all the new introduced features, I see the tablet screen of the OS as a maximiized version of the the start menu. This is quite the opositie to the windows 8 design where the desktop was an app on the windows startscreen. I think one reason many people were frustrated by it, because it was clearly a better tablet than desktop experience. It may be subtle but after using a surface pro for over 2 years now, it's enough to slowly define what is a good tablet and what is a good desktop experience.

    In my experience windows 10 follows more closely the lines of a kind of follow up to what I experience with windows 7. At start there is the desktop and there is the start menu.

    Windows 8.1 seen from the start screen perspecitve, to me is a true tablet experience. In this environment its nice to have live tiles as app shortcuts and widgets simultaneously to glance at everything important to you. With a touchscreen there is no need of a mouse or keboard and it is a natural environment to pick up the device with your hands and navigate the OS with your fingers as an input device. Wth the adition of a digitizer stylus it even feels natural to hold the tablet in portrait mode in your hands and start dooding or handwriting notes as if you were holding a piece of paper in onenote or another similar note taking or drawing/doodling app.
    With the desktop mode the user experience with touch diminishes fast. The windows in desktop moe are small, unnatural and fidgety to move around, closing/minimizing the windows with x/minus is a frustating affair with the stylus or finger, because the target buttons are so small. this is also the case or shortcuts and functions in the lower right corner of the taskbar.

    A good tablet experience is an experience of "more coarse motor skills". The desktop demands from the user input to be more refined, almost pixel perfect. You need extra tools to improve the transition of those movements. Thats why I find a mouse useful in a desktop environment.

    This is why I believe, and have experienced that the modern UI a startscreen with live tile apps was and still is the right tablet experience for windows. This is also the case fro the swipe gestures and the charms bar. I have got used to it, and it is a good end user experience for a tabet environmnt. If microsoft wants to make a good desktop and tablet exprience, they probably have the first part correct. But for tablet, they need to continue with what they have in windows 8. I am satisfied with the general layout, and I really only fined myself wanting the charmsbar functionality back in windows 10 and just ask for general impovements of the apps, improved functionality of the live tiles and more integrated stylus functions. I think that says something of how good the basic tablet layout experience is with windows 8. Puts a smile on my face thinking about it.

    I'm not sure the current continuity implementation is the correct one. Desktop should be desktop mode and tablet should be tablet mode, and not this current fancy transition of the start menu.
    jwpear likes this.
    01-24-2015 06:21 PM
  16. FinsUpDNC's Avatar
    Microsoft has no mobile strategy for devices over 8 inches. They are releasing a version of Windows 10 for Arm that will run on devices 8 inches and smaller. That will have more phone UI. However, over 8 inches there will be no mobile first strategy. This is a mistake in the long and short run. While I know iPad sales have slowed, they still sell. People just treat them more like PCs than phones..so the upgrade cycle is not two years like analysts expected. There is no reason a version of WOA can't run on the SurfaceRT tablets except for an arbitrary 8 inch rule. RT never had what it needed which was touch office and settings that means you could get rid of all of the desktop. Now that it might be available, they are killing off RT.

    So just like those who bought into Windows Phone 7....we now can add RT. Sure you want me to buy glasses that will cost a lot of money? Right....because your track record of supporting new products is great!
    Wasim Wes Adetunji and jwpear like this.
    01-24-2015 09:44 PM
  17. PepperdotNet's Avatar
    "It's not optimized for tablets and touch use"

    Well DUH. It is not finished yet. Thus the name "Preview"

    A lot, most actually, of the complaints are people thinking that a technical preview is equivalent to an RTM release.
    JamesDax, jojoe42, HeyCori and 3 others like this.
    01-24-2015 11:42 PM
  18. Michael Alan Goff's Avatar
    II'm tired of hearing "Microsoft is listening" if they truly were listening, they would have dumped Xbox Video and Music and brought us Zune back.
    ​I'd hate to be around you if your idea of listening means people have to do everything you say.
    JamesDax, rhapdog, HeyCori and 2 others like this.
    01-24-2015 11:57 PM
  19. techiez's Avatar
    II know.. He literally is the first person I have ever heard say he prefers Xbox Music and Video over Zune. I'll bet my house, that if you did a survey there is way more people that want Zune back than those that want to just stick with Xbox.

    But this is how Microsoft works. They claim they are listening. So what happens on their suggestion page? There were ten million votes to bring Zune back....and they blocked anymore votes from going to it.

    We will listen to you.....then tell you 'No'.
    Yes ppl want zune features, true, but who said Ms isnt listening let them bring out new XBM for W10 and lets see.
    01-25-2015 01:35 AM
  20. anguslhs's Avatar
    Yep, I know this is still technical preview, but for now, Tablet Mode for Windows 10 still has lots of work to be done.

    If they decided to keep the taskbar in Tablet Mode at last, the buttons for controlling the volume, network settings, and calling up the Action Centre in the System Tray should definitely be enlarged. The other icons/buttons should be hidden. The time should be enlarged, and the date should be put alongside the time.

    I don't really think that people really need Task View when using a tablet, but they do need to switch between apps quickly. The old Windows 8-style 'left charm' should stay the same, so there is no need for a second tap to switch to the other app, especially when the taskbar is there if you don't want to cycle through the apps one by one.

    Icons/Buttons in File Explorer (or some 'traditional' Windows apps) should be enlarged as well, since there is no difference at all for Tablet Mode. Hopefully by the time 'Spartan' is here, the UI will change to a more Metro IE-style UI instead of the Chrome-like UI, which is horrible for tablets.
    robinleck likes this.
    01-25-2015 02:42 AM
  21. poiman's Avatar
    Just a quick question. Since the charms bar is gone, how do you search or share inside a full screen app now?
    01-25-2015 05:17 AM
  22. ajst222's Avatar
    As far as RT goes, Microsoft is done with it. And it appears that Microsoft will be done with tablets running a "mobile" OS, and I think that's a good thing. They're still competing with the iPad and Android tablets, but Windows tablets will have the upper hand as they run full Windows.
    01-25-2015 08:24 AM
  23. ajst222's Avatar
    Just a quick question. Since the charms bar is gone, how do you search or share inside a full screen app now?
    Swipe down from the top (or put the mouse pointer at the top of the screen), and you'll see the hamburger menu
    poiman likes this.
    01-25-2015 08:25 AM
  24. jwpear's Avatar
    I completely agree with the original poster. I installed the January preview last night on my Dell XPS 12--which is a 2-in-1 that I thought would be good to test this build with. I was shocked at how poorly this latest build of Windows 10 works as a tablet OS. I sort of expected it to be better in this release. I understood MS was initially focusing on the desktop/enterprise users, but thought the consumer focus would be more apparent in this release--that's how folks billed this week's event. This release is disappointing.

    Here's where I think it is bad:
    1. The touch focused start menu looks like a garbled mess of ideas. I have a list of apps and a mess of different groups of apps that seem to be haphazardly placed around. The start tiles are too small for touch and there is a lot of wasted space. It all just feels amateurish.
    2. The keyboard doesn't automatically pop up (or go away when no longer needed) in any app.
    3. There is no Metro/Universal IE. Wow, I didn't realize just how much I love Metro IE--chromeless browsing, swipe to go back. And that beautiful touch keyboard just pops up automatically when I go to type in a URL or form field in Metro IE--amazing and I miss it.
    4. Every app starts in windowed mode, even if my XPS is in tablet mode. I thought continuum was in this build.
    5. App switching is a nightmare in tablet mode. Who the heck, other than the desktop users, want to have to move their hands from the side to tap on an app in the MIDDLE of the screen. It just ruins the smooth experience. It was nearly perfect in Windows 8.1. It would have been perfect if they had included individual desktop apps in the app list.
    6. There's no swipe from the right to get to the start menu and other settings. I get notification center--a great idea--but not what I want to see on the right side every time I swipe with my left thumb. Why can't start, settings, and notifications all be there in some form? Granted, all of my devices still have the start button on the button, long side. This may be less of an issue with newer hardware.


    I can't believe it, but I think the current incarnation of Windows 10 makes Windows 8.1 look wonderfully refined for touch hardware--dedicated tablets and 2-in-1's. I did not expect that to happen. I'm puzzled why the touch interactions had to be undone to make the desktop experience better. I could see improving desktop and refining touch, but why completely take away what was working well for touch? It almost seems like they're just doing things just to be different from the Windows 8 team and not really thinking about their users.

    Before folks start bashing, I use both desktop and touch. My family and I use true desktops/laptops and multiple touch devices, including a Surface Pro, Surface 2, Acer Iconia W3 (piece of crap I picked up at Build), and the aforementioned XPS 12. I'm a developer and a heavy desktop user, so I understand the issues Windows 8 desktop users have (although I easily adapted). I also love both Surface devices and use them regularly. I think 2-in-1s are brilliant. And I think the touch experience in 8.1 is fantastic, so much so that my iPad 2 just collects dust.

    I very much understand this is a work in progress and things may get worse before they get better. We're seeing true work in progress--the dirty mess we all have as we're refining things in development. But as a developer, I don't quite understand why they would undo so much of the touch user's experience to improve the desktop user's experience. I'm crossing my fingers that it is just a work in progress and it will get better. I fear that they may just swing too far back to the desktop and touch may be back to the second class citizen it was before Windows 8. I believe the 2-in-1 is the only way MS will remain viable in the consumer space. If they can't pull that off and have Windows work well for both desktop and touch users, I don't believe they will make it. Say what you will, but MS must win over the younger users. If they do not, the Windows will die and Chrome OS/Android will be the Enterprise OS in 10-15 years. As we've seen with Windows 8/8.1, virtually no one (except we enthusiasts) is going to buy a Windows tablet.

    A few hours of playing certainly isn't enough for me to form a good opinion, so I'll play around with it more and log my thoughts with Microsoft. Hopefully, they will improve the touch experience.
    01-25-2015 09:50 AM
  25. jwpear's Avatar
    more people that want Zune back
    I have been trying really hard to like Xbox Music. I force myself to use it because I want to be one of the eight people that support Microsoft and Xbox Music. But is it no Zune! Bring back Zune as a universal app!

    Is there an Xbox Music API? Maybe we should just write a Zune app using their APIs.
    01-25-2015 09:58 AM
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