05-21-2015 11:49 PM
133 12345 ...
tools
  1. travis_valkyrie's Avatar
    Just want to point out that this biased article does not represent ALL iOS and Android developers. To be fair the article only pointed out the negatives by providing negative feedbacks from lazy, ignorant developers who cares about user base and money. The tweets themselves aren't even enough for a reliable sample size, there's like barely any responses, even if they include the emails. Statistically speaking, this is a highly biased article with a small sample size = not accurate.

    How about publishing an article which includes major and minor, big or small, multiplatform developers. That would be a more reliable source, and would produce a more accurate response judging the fate of Windows 10's app ecosystem.

    So please, don't be affected by this poorly written article. It's very pathetic how they've rushed into judging the development tools first without even experiencing it. It looks like they've skipped all the facts and experiments and went straight to the conclusion. All I can say is, if they're gonna bash a Microsoft product, at least do it right.
    Last edited by travis_valkyrie; 05-01-2015 at 08:01 AM.
    05-01-2015 07:49 AM
  2. rhapdog's Avatar
    I will admit I am not a developer ...
    In fact according to the Windows blog post
    "Universal Windows apps are there to allow the same app to be written for Windows 8.1 Store and Windows Phone 8.1 with little code changes. Note that it’s not the same as linking a Windows and Phone app in the Store – this can be done in the non-Universal model as well; here I’m referring to actual code sharing, whether the apps will be linked in the Store or not. Almost everything can be shared, and obviously some things will have to change, such as UI layout, or usage of special features of one platform or the other. But, as it turns out, most code, and even XAML can actually be shared; and that’s a real advantage we didn’t have before."

    So it having a 'separately maintained code" isn't true at all. Unless I am missing something.
    The "separately maintained code" comes in from all the differing UI coding that must be done. With Windows 10, these are automatically reformatted on conditioning, and you don't have to have separate code for the UI on separate devices. You just code it for changes according to screen size and everything will automatically adjust. This is why with the phone continuum, it was the exact same Excel on the phone and full screen on a large monitor. It adjusts, and is the same exact code. Not a "mostly same" where parts have to be maintained separately. Big difference, and even a bigger difference on maintenance and such.

    Which we will then see a bunch of crap ports with no native aspects and complaints in the future about app quality. Calling it :D
    Agreed on that point. Pretty much get that anyway.

    The way I see it, these devs are being ignorant and lazy. They're also many that don't see the fact that Windows 10 is a universal OS, so if you screw the phone user base thinking that there's no incentive for them, then they're not seeing the big picture the PC/laptop, Xbox and tablet communities. There are far more users there than on phones. To those devs who don't want to adopt, I wish them well; eventually they'll come to and realize the profit margin they're missing because they fail to adopt. This is truly remarkable; no other software company is going full scale like Microsoft has. This is the new Microsoft, not the domineering company of the 1990s and early 2000s.
    As a consolation, the ignorant and lazy are rarely the successful. Those who are smart and work hard are generally the most successful. That's with any career path.

    Just to explain the maintenance of apps (even if it is generated from iOS or Android code).

    As I am a developer, I would see it from the following stand point.
    I can develop an app for iOS and Android and easily port it to WP and Windows.
    So when I have an update for Android and iOS, I can port the updated code to WP and Windows, easily with the current announcements.

    So update and maintenance wouldnt be an issue.
    Thank you for this. As a "retired" (mostly) developer who was in development for 35+ years, I have to agree. This is going to be so much easier to maintain across so many devices, it makes me want to get back into the action. Just no time. I'm too busy these days with enjoying life for a change. ;)
    05-01-2015 07:59 AM
  3. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Just to explain the maintenance of apps (even if it is generated from iOS or Android code).

    As I am a developer, I would see it from the following stand point.
    I can develop an app for iOS and Android and easily port it to WP and Windows.
    So when I have an update for Android and iOS, I can port the updated code to WP and Windows, easily with the current announcements.

    So update and maintenance wouldnt be an issue.
    If for every $1 in WP, the developer makes $500 on iOS and $300 on Android. The incentive is too low even for that little work.

    Another interesting point is for developers It would be better if Windows Mobile dies. Two platforms is already enough work. If developers support Windows is essentially helping the platform to survive and that only increase the amount of work and the costs in the long run.
    Last edited by Spectrum90; 05-01-2015 at 11:25 AM.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:11 AM
  4. Spectrum90's Avatar
    The "separately maintained code" comes in from all the differing UI coding that must be done. With Windows 10, these are automatically reformatted on conditioning, and you don't have to have separate code for the UI on separate devices. You just code it for changes according to screen size and everything will automatically adjust. This is why with the phone continuum, it was the exact same Excel on the phone and full screen on a large monitor. It adjusts, and is the same exact code. Not a "mostly same" where parts have to be maintained separately. Big difference, and even a bigger difference on maintenance and such.
    With Universal apps in 8.1, developers already can reuse almost all their code including part of the UI code, in a shared project.
    Windows 10 improves marginally the solution. It's not a game changer.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:19 AM
  5. EBUK's Avatar
    With a potential billion extra customers...
    The potential market is far smaller than one billion.

    Can you name an app available in either Google Play or the Apple App store that EVERY Android / iOS user has installed (and not subsequently removed)?

    Now name an app that every Windows device user will install on their device...

    If for every $1 in WP, the developer makes $500 on iOS and $300 on Android. The incentive is too low even for that little work..
    More to the point, why should any of those developers TRUST Microsoft to deliver what they are promising? So many MSFT technologies have been half-baked, cumbersome, or bloated monstrosities, especially ones recompiled for other platforms - anyone remember Word 6 on the Mac?

    Microsoft has a quarter century history of screwing over competitors; it's not easy to accept that Microsoft has suddenly changed into the good guy. The turn around is eyed with suspicion or disbelief.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:42 AM
  6. tgp's Avatar
    The potential market is far smaller than one billion.
    While I generally agree with what you mean on this post, you are technically incorrect. Potential would mean how many devices it could be installed on.

    Sent from whatever device I happen to be using today using Tapatalk
    a5cent likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:46 AM
  7. jjmurphy's Avatar
    Taking a dataset from twitter, even an informal one is a joke.

    If I'm a rabid nutjob fan or Microsoft hater, I wait for someone from a big tech blog to ask publicly if I'm interested in the new Windows development opportunities. Of course I'll use twitter as a public spewing ground even if I'm not a developer, just to protect my precious platform.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 12:39 PM
  8. jjmurphy's Avatar
    The potential market is far smaller than one billion.
    I don't think you know what potential means.
    05-01-2015 12:40 PM
  9. Visa Declined's Avatar
    It's been mentioned a few times in this thread that developers are focusing on the "phone" part, and ignoring the fact that these will be "desktop/tablet apps" also.

    Right now, the Windows 8 store isn't that good, and a lot of people don't even use these apps on their PC's. I think developers know this, and it's making them not really enthused about the "universal app" vision Microsoft has. Their focus is on mobile phones, and Windows Phone's low market share is something that's probably on their mind quite a bit.

    Also mentioned in this thread, "who would ignore a billion users?" ...how many out of a billion, mostly desktop users, will care about or even use Windows apps? It's hard to say, but right now, the number of people who use apps on their x86 machines has got to be pretty low, especially in comparison to those who use apps on competing mobile devices. I know for me, I use my Windows 8.1 machine to browse the web, play PC games, and use Photoshop. I don't use Windows apps at all. If I was using a Surface tablet, I imagine I would use Windows apps a lot more.
    nmco9 and prasath1234 like this.
    05-01-2015 12:45 PM
  10. neo158's Avatar
    The potential market is far smaller than one billion.

    Can you name an app available in either Google Play or the Apple App store that EVERY Android / iOS user has installed (and not subsequently removed)?

    Now name an app that every Windows device user will install on their device...
    Another one who is only looking at it from the phone perspective and not the Windows 10 ecosystem as a whole.

    You need to look up what "potential" means because what I know it means and what you THINK it means are two different things!!!

    What has that got to do with apps being ported to Windows, not only that but people have different usage scenarios for their devices so no two users are going to have the same apps installed. If you want me to name apps then how about the Gmail app on Android, Safari on iOS and Calendar on WP.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 02:20 PM
  11. xandros9's Avatar
    Adjusted thread title to better fit the sample size - my statistics class comes in handy!
    05-01-2015 02:29 PM
  12. EBUK's Avatar
    I don't think you know what potential means.
    Then you are wrong.

    This figure of one billion is what MSFT hopes to achieve in three years' time. It is a desire, a wish, an aim; it is not a reality. Until there are one billion devices running Windows 10, then the potential one billion extra customers does not exist.

    Why limit it to 1 billion? There are nigh on 7 billion people on this planet.
    Last edited by EBUK; 05-01-2015 at 02:56 PM.
    prasath1234 and nmco9 like this.
    05-01-2015 02:44 PM
  13. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    This figure of one billion is what MSFT hopes to achieve in three years' time. It is a desire, a wish, an aim; it is not a reality. Until there are one billion devices running Windows 10, then the potential one billion extra customers does not exist.
    The key factor will be the number of Windows 7 users who upgrade to Windows 10.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    Jazmac, ajayden, Guytronic and 2 others like this.
    05-01-2015 02:49 PM
  14. vish2801's Avatar
    Exactly, King manage to maintain Candy Crush Saga on WP despite it being an iOS port.
    Seeing the reviews Candy Crush got in different WP markets, King must have underestimated their popularity in WP community. They should be thanking MS for making such easy tools that the ported app is so smooth on even 512 mb ram phones that it felt native until yesterday.
    Jazmac, neo158, ajayden and 1 others like this.
    05-01-2015 03:03 PM
  15. TechFreak1's Avatar
    It is far too early to write this off, it has just been almost 2 days since the announcement and the tools aren't publicly out yet.... This whole aura of negativity is just retarded.

    I'd understand it if was say 6 months in (with the Windows 10 launch was imminent) and there wasn't any movement at all.

    If the bigger devs with deep pockets are quick to write this off without even trying the tools... well then.. that just speaks volumes. They aren't devs at all but just pen pushers with their own agenda.

    Many of us started out as devs because they either saw a gap unfilled or wanted to delight users with new experiences be it on their phone, tablet or PC. To address either of those, one would imagine by being multi-platform would gain you access to a much bigger audience.
    Guytronic and a5cent like this.
    05-01-2015 03:56 PM
  16. Jazmac's Avatar
    If for every $1 in WP, the developer makes $500 on iOS and $300 on Android. The incentive is too low even for that little work.

    Another interesting point is for developers It would be better if Windows Mobile dies. Two platforms is already enough work. If developers support Windows is essentially helping the platform to survive and that only increase the amount of work and the costs in the long run.
    Are you a developer?
    05-01-2015 04:00 PM
  17. Jazmac's Avatar
    It is far too early to write this off, it has just been almost 2 days since the announcement and the tools aren't publicly out yet.... This whole aura of negativity is just retarded.

    I'd understand it if was say 6 months in (with the Windows 10 launch was imminent) and there wasn't any movement at all.

    If the bigger devs with deep pockets are quick to write this off without even trying the tools... well then.. that just speaks volumes. They aren't devs at all but just pen pushers with their own agenda.

    Many of us started out as devs because they either saw a gap unfilled or wanted to delight users with new experiences be it on their phone, tablet or PC. To address either of those, one would imagine by being multi-platform would gain you access to a much bigger audience.
    Exactly.
    I find it troubling how posters that post the most negative comments get more attention than those posting progressive comments. Its like they live in this well of pure hopelessness. Every advance in the platform that gets us excited and hopeful, we have to read from their very depressing view of the world. Same people beating up on Microsoft ever since WP7 and Windows XP landed. The same retarded view is all they seem to know.
    05-01-2015 04:10 PM
  18. Torcher Death's Avatar
    Then you are wrong.

    This figure of one billion is what MSFT hopes to achieve in three years' time. It is a desire, a wish, an aim; it is not a reality. Until there are one billion devices running Windows 10, then the potential one billion extra customers does not exist.

    Why limit it to 1 billion? There are nigh on 7 billion people on this planet.
    Sure its just an estimate, but lets not forget that Win 10(desktop) is going to be a free upgrade for Win7, 8 & 8.1 for the 1st year & apparenlty they will also allow pirated copies to upgrade. Then there are the Windows phones, tablets, xbox, 2 in 1's & lasty Hololens as well. To me the 1 billion estimate sounds to be on the lower & safer side. Would've been easier to prove if someone published details with actual numbers rather than just percentages available now.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 10:36 PM
  19. ajayden's Avatar
    The key factor will be the number of Windows 7 users who upgrade to Windows 10.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 (2013) using Tapatalk
    That is evident where I live. People who have not upgraded to a newer version due to the cost factor, are now waiting for the release of Windows 10, as it is a free upgrade.

    Also, important to notice, is the corporate environment where atleast one firm that I know, has atleast around 1000 computers still running Windows 7 and they are happy to upgrade for free.

    So surely, there are people getting ready to embrace Windows 10, just for the fact that it is free.
    05-01-2015 11:09 PM
  20. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    That is evident where I live. People who have not upgraded to a newer version due to the cost factor, are now waiting for the release of Windows 10, as it is a free upgrade.

    Also, important to notice, is the corporate environment where atleast one firm that I know, has atleast around 1000 computers still running Windows 7 and they are happy to upgrade for free.

    So surely, there are people getting ready to embrace Windows 10, just for the fact that it is free.
    It won't be a free upgrade for Enterprise. Windows 10 for Enterprise: More secure and up to date
    05-01-2015 11:20 PM
  21. tgp's Avatar
    It won't be a free upgrade for Enterprise. Windows 10 for Enterprise: More secure and up to date
    Technically, you're correct; it's not free. But the Enterprise version of Windows is only available to partners and to customers with Software Assurance. Partners get Microsoft licenses for free anyway, and those on Software Assurance get updates at no (extra) charge. Nobody really buys Enterprise.
    05-01-2015 11:32 PM
  22. TechAbstract's Avatar
    I know many companies I work with are skipping 8 and waiting for Windows 10. I will be very busy upgrading their computers to Windows 10.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:41 PM
  23. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I know many companies I work with are skipping 8 and waiting for Windows 10. I will be very busy upgrading their computers to Windows 10.
    There are also many companies that won't be getting 10 for quite some time, as they've just recently upgraded from XP to 7.
    tgp likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:45 PM
  24. TechAbstract's Avatar
    There are also many companies that won't be getting 10 for quite some time, as they've just recently upgraded from XP to 7.
    Well, if they don't within 1 year then they will have to pay. Simple as that. I doubt many will skip.
    prasath1234 likes this.
    05-01-2015 11:46 PM
  25. tgp's Avatar
    Well, if they don't within 1 year then they will have to pay. Simple as that. I doubt many will skip.
    For a business, there is a lot more cost to upgrading than the cost of the license. Labor, testing, compatibility, updating proprietary software, and whatever else goes along with it. Windows 7 is supported until 2020, and by then Windows 10 will not be current, at least not what we are getting soon. Also, large companies often don't jump on a product such as Windows right after it's released.

    I work for a small IT company, and we never did upgrade to Windows 8. We waited until 8.1 was released, and went directly to that from 7. Vista was also completely skipped. And since we're a Microsoft Partner, we do not pay for the licenses, so that cost was not a factor.
    Laura Knotek and nmco9 like this.
    05-01-2015 11:58 PM
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