06-12-2015 12:31 PM
27 12
tools
  1. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Hi folks. As is the case for many, I love the idea of W10 but find the implementation disappointing and impractical in a modern touch ecosystem. I keep hearing that the problems are resolved/are being resolved but whenever I try to confirm such on these forums or elsewhere I am told it's not true and that W10 is still very much focussed on legacy non-touch devices.

    So, after the success of a number of excellent modding projects that corrected the issues W8 had on legacy non-touch devices, what is in the works for W10? Now that W10 is pretty much in feature lockdown before release I imagine thoughts will be turning towards the practicalities of making the needed mods.

    To be clear (but not exhaustive) I am talking about keeping the W8 good stuff such as:

    - Swipes to access menus instead of hamburgers
    - Swipe between tasks without having to go through task selector gubbinry
    - Full screen web browsing
    - Wide screen style horizontal scrolling in both start screen and apps (though retaining vertical scrolling when in portrait mode would be cool)
    - Automatically switching to desktop mode when launching/switching to a desktop or desktop apps and to tablet mode when launching/switching to metro apps and returning to the start screen without having to fiddle with the settings every time and avoiding forced full screen desktop apps whilst keeping metro touch apps appropriately full screen
    - Ability to block Windows Update server access, adding an interface to check the updates as they are released and choose which to allow (not simply 'delay' them)
    - Ability to swipe the task bar on and off and to mod it to work like a more configurable version of the old charms menu, adding universal share, search and devices icons and making it bigger to suit touch (also returning it to a more traditional task bar arrangement when launching/switching to desktops and desktop apps)
    - Whilst on the desktop, left click start button (or use Windows hardware/keyboard logo button) to access start screen and right click start button to access new style start menu

    I will try to add a more comprehensive list if I get the time, but I think most of us are aware of the pinch points that hit touch devices.

    So, anything on the horizon via the WC grape vine? Or are there any mods we can already make without the need for professional modders?

    Please share your info, and any practical modding ideas and concepts you have.
    Last edited by AndyCalling; 06-09-2015 at 09:22 AM.
    06-09-2015 09:10 AM
  2. swanlee's Avatar
    I hope stardock steps up and does something cause it is plain as day MS is dead set on letting Tablet users out to dry with a Win 7 like touch experience.

    MS is not listening, their's been tons of feedback in the feedback app, tons of discussions on the official insider forums, plenty of tweets. They just don't care at this point.

    All I really need is 3 simple things and MS doesn;t seem to care enough to implment them


    1. Swipe Taskbar on/off --- I want to swipe down to remove the taskbar, swipe up to make it appear again.
    2. Full screen MS Edge browser to replace Metro IE and import Metro IE live tile bookmarks
    3. Swipe to scroll through open apps.


    These small fixes would correct about 90% of my touch issues with Win 10.
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-09-2015 11:41 AM
  3. TheCudder's Avatar
    Has Microsoft not implemented "swipe" to deploy hamburger menus? This is one reason why hamburger menus work so well in Google's G-Mail & YouTube apps. I'd rather lose swipe to task switch and gain app level swipe in to deploy the hamburger menu.

    Start Screen: Swiping in from the left panel to the center screen should deploy "All Apps".
    In apps: Swiping in from the left panel to the center screen should deploy the "App" specific hamburger menu.

    Task-switcher, tap the task-view icon, it's located low enough on the screen and close enough to the start button that swiping any really isn't any quicker or convenient.
    jojoe42 and AndyCalling like this.
    06-09-2015 12:07 PM
  4. AndyCalling's Avatar
    I hope stardock steps up and does something cause it is plain as day MS is dead set on letting Tablet users out to dry with a Win 7 like touch experience.

    MS is not listening, their's been tons of feedback in the feedback app, tons of discussions on the official insider forums, plenty of tweets. They just don't care at this point.

    All I really need is 3 simple things and MS doesn;t seem to care enough to implment them


    1. Swipe Taskbar on/off --- I want to swipe down to remove the taskbar, swipe up to make it appear again.
    2. Full screen MS Edge browser to replace Metro IE and import Metro IE live tile bookmarks
    3. Swipe to scroll through open apps.


    These small fixes would correct about 90% of my touch issues with Win 10.
    For your points:

    1) This is a big thing for me too. From watching Youtube vids of W10 builds ot seems the ability to even hide the task bar has gone, but this is only in very recent builds and could be a bug? If the hide comes back it could potentially adapted with a third party mod. Let's hope.

    2) This idea would be good to help with the transition, but it is a temporary thing. Before you 'upgrade', make a Favourites folder for tiles and then tap each tile in turn and add to this folder. The after 'upgrading' you will find it a bit easier to go to the tile favourites folder and tap each link to add to the Start screen. A bit of a pain, but only on day 1.

    3) This is a real big issue that will really hit my productivity. Really hoping for a third party patch for this. Scouring Bing for signs of a project, but worryingly I see no ships.
    06-09-2015 02:49 PM
  5. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Has Microsoft not implemented "swipe" to deploy hamburger menus? This is one reason why hamburger menus work so well in Google's G-Mail & YouTube apps. I'd rather lose swipe to task switch and gain app level swipe in to deploy the hamburger menu.

    Start Screen: Swiping in from the left panel to the center screen should deploy "All Apps".
    In apps: Swiping in from the left panel to the center screen should deploy the "App" specific hamburger menu.

    Task-switcher, tap the task-view icon, it's located low enough on the screen and close enough to the start button that swiping any really isn't any quicker or convenient.
    I'm not sure how far MS have instigated left swiping. From looking at Youtube vids left swipe only brings the task manager. Thanks for the tip about getting the task manager via a button but that one does seem to actually be swipeable. Unfortunately that doesn't come close to the W8 swipe straight through the apps.

    I would love a short left swipe to bring out the hamburger menu, and a long swipe to pull out the next app. I'm hoping for signs of a swipe mod to allow this.
    06-09-2015 02:55 PM
  6. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Windows 10 works well in touch devices. You are really asking for a gesture based OS. A mainstream OS shouldn't use gestures as the primary interaction model, you should check smaller players for that, like Jolla or BlackBerry.
    06-10-2015 09:14 AM
  7. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Windows 10 works well in touch devices. You are really asking for a gesture based OS. A mainstream OS shouldn't use gestures as the primary interaction model, you should check smaller players for that, like Jolla or BlackBerry.
    I think you're talking about legacy OSs. The modern world include both touch and wimp. It is perfectly possible to combine these. With a third party start menu, W8.1 achieves this with ease. I believe, with some third party work, so can W10. Until it does, W8.1 will remain king on all but legacy devices.
    06-11-2015 08:44 AM
  8. Spectrum90's Avatar
    I think you're talking about legacy OSs. The modern world include both touch and wimp. It is perfectly possible to combine these. With a third party start menu, W8.1 achieves this with ease. I believe, with some third party work, so can W10. Until it does, W8.1 will remain king on all but legacy devices.
    Windows 8/8.1 was a total failure in touch devices, not to mention PCs with touch screens. A gesture based UI is not the best choice because gestures are hard to discover and hard to learn.
    A gesture based UI could be a good choice for a niche OS targeting power users.
    jojoe42 likes this.
    06-11-2015 09:14 AM
  9. paulsalter's Avatar
    when are gestures hard to learn on touch devices

    iOS, OSX, Android, WP, Win8 they all have gestures and are not for just niche or power users
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-11-2015 09:23 AM
  10. astondg's Avatar
    Windows 8/8.1 was a total failure in touch devices
    I find W8/8.1 to be really easy to use on my Surface Pro 3 and the learning curve with W8 on my original Surface was no more than 10 min. So I don't see how it can be called a total failure.

    In fact Apple just added some of the same multitasking and snap features, with gestures, to iOS 9.

    I find the current W10 TP much more frustrating for touch on my SP3 and I still wouldn't call it a total failure.
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-11-2015 09:28 AM
  11. Spectrum90's Avatar
    when are gestures hard to learn on touch devices

    iOS, OSX, Android, WP, Win8 they all have gestures and are not for just niche or power users
    Gestures are hard to discover and learn because there is no visual indication of their existence. Gestures are good as an alternative way of doing habitual tasks, or as the primary way of doing non-essential tasks.


    I find W8/8.1 to be really easy to use on my Surface Pro 3 and the learning curve with W8 on my original Surface was no more than 10 min. So I don't see how it can be called a total failure.
    10 minutes is a lot, the average Joe doesn't have 10 minutes to learn that kind of stuff. The UI should be transparent to the user, as close as possible as removing any learning curve. Software companies shouldn't introduce new interaction models in a mature market with trained users unless the new interaction model is significantly better and generates amazing gains of productivity, and that gains are easy to understand.
    TheCudder likes this.
    06-11-2015 10:01 AM
  12. paulsalter's Avatar
    Gestures are no harder than using any other method, things evolve and we have to learn new things

    I am sitting here now in windows, I want to open a new app, where are the visual clues telling me what to do
    I am new to windows and want to close a program, where are the visual clues telling me how to do this
    I want to shut my computer down, where are the visual clues
    there are no visual clues for mouse usage, why should touch be different

    touch/mouse/keyboard, you need to spend a little time learning how they work
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-11-2015 10:12 AM
  13. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Windows 8/8.1 was a total failure in touch devices, not to mention PCs with touch screens. A gesture based UI is not the best choice because gestures are hard to discover and hard to learn.
    A gesture based UI could be a good choice for a niche OS targeting power users.
    Did you find wimp hard when you moved from dos to Windows 1 or 2, or Gem? How did you discover the new way back then? I suggest you use the same strategy. Examine, experiment and learn. It has always worked before. Give up on it now and you'll find you cease to progress.

    Even my pensioner father, who holds a special hatred close for obscure computer use, finds his Surface and his Logitech T650 touch PC on W8.1 a breath of fresh air to use. Would you consider him a 'power user'? If so, you may be reading from a different script to the rest of us.

    This, however, is getting off topic. Please provide constructive input related to how we can adjust and mod Win10 to suit modern touch devices as well as W8.1 does. If you want to dispute the whole concept, please start another thread. This is an important and ongoing process that needs consideration for those that have moved on from reliance on wimp alone.
    06-11-2015 10:48 AM
  14. Spectrum90's Avatar
    Did you find wimp hard when you moved from dos to Windows 1 or 2, or Gem? How did you discover the new way back then? I suggest you use the same strategy. Examine, experiment and learn. It has always worked before. Give up on it now and you'll find you cease to progress.
    There are 1.5 billion users trained with the classical Windows interface. There are 2 billion users trained with the "classical" touch interface. Microsoft tried to make all those people learn a new interaction model that doesn't provide any significant gain. The result was that almost everybody hates Windows 8 in PCs, hybrid devices and touch devices.

    Even my pensioner father, who holds a special hatred close for obscure computer use, finds his Surface and his Logitech T650 touch PC on W8.1 a breath of fresh air to use. Would you consider him a 'power user'? If so, you may be reading from a different script to the rest of us.
    It's not impossible to learn, It's hard to learn and without any good reason to motivate the user to make that effort.

    This, however, is getting off topic. Please provide constructive input related to how we can adjust and mod Win10 to suit modern touch devices as well as W8.1 does. If you want to dispute the whole concept, please start another thread. This is an important and ongoing process that needs consideration for those that have moved on from reliance on wimp alone.
    Yes, it's getting off topic. My point was that Windows 10 is far better than Windows 8 for touch and hybrid devices, let alone PCs. So, the market for the product you're describing is insignificant and nobody will develop it.
    06-11-2015 11:41 AM
  15. paulsalter's Avatar
    In reply to the original post

    I agree with your comments and am just hoping that these features come
    From what I read the feedback app is going to remain in win 10 when its released, so hope more tablet users feel the same and provide feedback about how thing need changing

    desktop users happy to start with, tablet users next on the list
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-11-2015 12:07 PM
  16. Asskickulater's Avatar
    I hope stardock steps up and does something cause it is plain as day MS is dead set on letting Tablet users out to dry with a Win 7 like touch experience.

    MS is not listening, their's been tons of feedback in the feedback app, tons of discussions on the official insider forums, plenty of tweets. They just don't care at this point.

    All I really need is 3 simple things and MS doesn;t seem to care enough to implment them


    1. Swipe Taskbar on/off --- I want to swipe down to remove the taskbar, swipe up to make it appear again.
    2. Full screen MS Edge browser to replace Metro IE and import Metro IE live tile bookmarks
    3. Swipe to scroll through open apps.


    These small fixes would correct about 90% of my touch issues with Win 10.
    1) Why? That taskbar is used in place of a notification bar, which every other tab has, and no one cares about it.
    2) Every modern app including edge can go Fullscreen in windows 10
    3) I don't know anything about the touch screen aspects as I don't have a device to test
    06-11-2015 01:40 PM
  17. AndyCalling's Avatar
    There are 1.5 billion users trained with the classical Windows interface. There are 2 billion users trained with the "classical" touch interface. Microsoft tried to make all those people learn a new interaction model that doesn't provide any significant gain. The result was that almost everybody hates Windows 8 in PCs, hybrid devices and touch devices.



    It's not impossible to learn, It's hard to learn and without any good reason to motivate the user to make that effort.



    Yes, it's getting off topic. My point was that Windows 10 is far better than Windows 8 for touch and hybrid devices, let alone PCs. So, the market for the product you're describing is insignificant and nobody will develop it.
    Quoting training figures is irrelevant and does not justify avoiding change. It is no harder to learn than wimp was, in fact it is easier for many (pensioner example given). It is more intuitive and direct. There are a significant number of posts and threads on here and on the MS forums that show you wrong wrt 'almost everybody hates Windows 8'. Again, this is off topic. You may find it hard to learn, but I don't believe that the few who are so easily confused (and it is very few if my pensioner technology allergic father finds it simple) should be considered a valid anchor to progress. This, however is supposed to be about modding W10, not W8.1. You are free to start another thread on that topic if you wish. Please consider yourself ignored for non-constructive off topic posting. Please do not respond to my posts again, as your posts will not be seen or engaged with.
    06-11-2015 01:45 PM
  18. AndyCalling's Avatar
    In reply to the original post

    I agree with your comments and am just hoping that these features come
    From what I read the feedback app is going to remain in win 10 when its released, so hope more tablet users feel the same and provide feedback about how thing need changing

    desktop users happy to start with, tablet users next on the list
    Really? A good sign, that. However, I am hoping that an alternative to relying on MS is possible for many aspects of W10. Two angles of attack are better than one.
    06-11-2015 01:47 PM
  19. AndyCalling's Avatar
    1) Why? That taskbar is used in place of a notification bar, which every other tab has, and no one cares about it.
    2) Every modern app including edge can go Fullscreen in windows 10
    3) I don't know anything about the touch screen aspects as I don't have a device to test
    1) The notification centre is not the same as the task bar. The new task bar is great for the desktop and a real improvement, but why have it taking up space when not needed? I can't see the need. The notification centre is hidden on Windows Phones until swiped and was pretty much universally cheered.

    2) Unfortunately you are not correct here. There is no way to make Edge web pages full screen. It just spreads the controls further. Try Internet Explorer in Win8.1 and you'll see what I mean. Are there any alternative metro browsers to Edge in W10? That would be the way to mod around this limitation. Firefox Metro was very poor but there are some good options on the phone. Anyone know of any that are set to become universal apps?

    3) Me neither (not one I'm prepared to use as a test device) so I've used Youtube to see the current builds. I am hoping someone with more devices to spare will have more ideas re. tweaks. Watch this space!
    06-11-2015 01:59 PM
  20. Lonestar6's Avatar
    There's an app called TouchMe Gesture Studio in the Windows Store which lets you map a host of gesture types (multi-finger swipes, pinches, taps, etc) to a long list of functions. I found it so useful I bought a copy for my Surface 3 (there's a free version, but I forgot what the limitations were for that version). I suspect with a few tweaks to support Windows 10 this app can go a long way to restoring some of touch usability lost from Windows 8.1.
    06-11-2015 02:43 PM
  21. AndyCalling's Avatar
    Take a look at this link:

    http://www.windowscentral.com/opera-...app-later-2015

    Could Opera offer full screen metro browsing for W10? Very interesting.
    06-11-2015 02:56 PM
  22. DavidinCT's Avatar
    Why go nuts trying to mod it at this point, as I am running a project with a few people to try to hack Windows Media Center into WIndows 10. I thought about it, the RTM will be out in a little over a month and 1/2, Why bother ?

    Just wait till the RTM so we know what we are getting 100% and if the need is there, then hack away....
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-11-2015 07:16 PM
  23. Asskickulater's Avatar
    1) The notification centre is not the same as the task bar. The new task bar is great for the desktop and a real improvement, but why have it taking up space when not needed? I can't see the need. The notification centre is hidden on Windows Phones until swiped and was pretty much universally cheered.

    2) Unfortunately you are not correct here. There is no way to make Edge web pages full screen. It just spreads the controls further. Try Internet Explorer in Win8.1 and you'll see what I mean. Are there any alternative metro browsers to Edge in W10? That would be the way to mod around this limitation. Firefox Metro was very poor but there are some good options on the phone. Anyone know of any that are set to become universal apps?

    3) Me neither (not one I'm prepared to use as a test device) so I've used Youtube to see the current builds. I am hoping someone with more devices to spare will have more ideas re. tweaks. Watch this space!
    Windows phone doesn't do that anymore, an option to hide the taskbar unless swiped up couldn't hurt though, I really don't see it as a big issue. And sorry, I checked the current build and its gone, it was there in a previous build under the elipses menu next to the zoom though, so I'm betting its only temporarily disabled.
    06-11-2015 08:13 PM
  24. paulsalter's Avatar
    3) Me neither (not one I'm prepared to use as a test device) so I've used Youtube to see the current builds. I am hoping someone with more devices to spare will have more ideas re. tweaks. Watch this space!
    I have given up on the TP for now, various reasons

    However come launch day I will be upgrading my Laptop, mainly using as a desktop but it does have touch screen, so I will be able to fully check out how tablet mode works

    How this goes in the months after release will make me decide if I want 10 on my tablet
    06-12-2015 03:06 AM
  25. Daniel Ratcliffe's Avatar
    I've not really been looking into this myself however I would like to. I'm wanting those gestures of Windows 8. Yeah I can learn 10's way of doing things if necessary but the workflow of 8 just felt effortless. It just made sense to me.
    AndyCalling likes this.
    06-12-2015 03:45 AM
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