05-30-2013 06:03 PM
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  1. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    There was a great article/entry on kotaku that had some great opinions on why the used game market is being used as an excuse to cover up the real issues in gaming. I have said for the longest time used games aren't the issue. Its the poor decisions and ballooning cost of game development. No way anyone can make a case that this is a sustainable model. And its only gonna get worse. I would be surprised if the industry makes it half way through this next gen without some kind of scenario reminiscent of the '83 crash.
    05-26-2013 01:20 PM
  2. Reflexx's Avatar
    There was a great article/entry on kotaku that had some great opinions on why the used game market is being used as an excuse to cover up the real issues in gaming. I have said for the longest time used games aren't the issue. Its the poor decisions and ballooning cost of game development. No way anyone can make a case that this is a sustainable model. And its only gonna get worse. I would be surprised if the industry makes it half way through this next gen without some kind of scenario reminiscent of the '83 crash.
    Game development for AAA games is expensive. And the problems studios face isn't always because of poor decisions. But they just don't have wiggle room because games cost so much to make.

    Since crystal balls dont exist there will always be things that could have been done better. Most companies can take this. Many game companies can't because they are bleeding money already.
    05-26-2013 03:15 PM
  3. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    Game development for AAA games is expensive. And the problems studios face isn't always because of poor decisions. But they just don't have wiggle room because games cost so much to make.

    Since crystal balls dont exist there will always be things that could have been done better. Most companies can take this. Many game companies can't because they are bleeding money already.
    If you spend 100 to 200 million on developing a game, project that the game will sell x amount and it doesn't, leading to layoffs and studios shutting down, that is poor decision making. And at this point, many publishers and studios don't need a crystal ball to know this. They continue to make these games that aren't making the development cost back.
    05-26-2013 03:52 PM
  4. Reflexx's Avatar
    If you spend 100 to 200 million on developing a game, project that the game will sell x amount and it doesn't, leading to layoffs and studios shutting down, that is poor decision making. And at this point, many publishers and studios don't need a crystal ball to know this. They continue to make these games that aren't making the development cost back.
    That's the "hardcore" game market.

    You can't half-*** your way to a AAA title.
    05-26-2013 04:06 PM
  5. ncxcstud's Avatar
    That's the "hardcore" game market.

    You can't half-*** your way to a AAA title.
    You got that right. Game Dev Tycoon kills you for trying to half it...
    05-26-2013 08:30 PM
  6. usnberry's Avatar
    I'm a huge Microsoft supporter, I have spend many of thousands of dollars on their products from my PocketPC 1.0 all the way up to every version to WP8 and every game system, PC too (plus tons of games)

    You wana know what ? I never hacked any of my Xbox systems, my PS3 is modded like crazy. If Microsoft blocks used games like they are planning to, I will mod my xbox and buy used games to play on it. Sure I will lose my achievements and wont be able to play on line but, I can play the games I want, with out being robbed. It wont be on day one, I know that but, give it 6-8 months, the hackers always find a way, they always do. I don't want go that route but, I will, if I have to.

    If the fee is like $5 for used games, that is understandable because they already made money off the game when it was sold. There is very high chance, the game I buy used, I would not of gotten at full price anyway and would not be willing to pay $60 for a game that I don't MUST HAVE. So, By Microsoft being greedy (is where I see a full retail cost for a month old used game), they will lose sales. I know I am not the only one who buys a lot of used games and for the reason of value in game.

    I can live with a small fee but, a used game costing the same price of retail after fees, then I guess I will be playing a lot less games for the "one" or spend more on a PS4 (if they are not doing this). I will be buying both.

    PC market, is different if you buy retail games, If you uninstall the game, and resell it, it will reinstall and play, I believe the license says you can do this as long as you do not keep any part of the program on your PCs. Kind of how Microsoft's licenses are for Windows (retail copies) where you CAN resell as long as you keep none of the software on your systems.

    I guess this will have to go back to a government case, just like Music CDs.. Microsoft is trying to own the media you pay for, you should have a right to do with the media (your copy) as you choose. When you buy something, it's worth money to a point (a dollar value used, like todays market), you know if you buy a game and you don't like it or don't want to keep it, you can sell it to a friend, eBay or get ripped off by game stop. The point I am making is what Microsoft is doing is taking the Media that you own and make it worthless or worth very little.

    Maybe it's me, I just think it's wrong and should be illegal. That is something for the courts to decide. I don't think this will last very long as there will be a lot of people battling this one. Say 6 months after release, a large class action lawsuit will appear, I would almost bet on it.
    You can't hack an Xbone and if you did, it would get banned and be worthless as it requires internet.

    Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
    05-26-2013 08:46 PM
  7. Odog4ever's Avatar
    There is no fee paid out by the buyer/seller. GameStop (and similar used game retailers) will be taking a cut of the profits they get from used games and giving it to MS//Sony and game publishers. That's the "fee" being referred too.

    They seller/buyer is not involved because they never had a say on what these retailers did with the profits anyway. It's kinda like ordering food at a restaurant, as long as your food comes out delicious knowing all the disgusting **** that happens in the kitchen is not necessary (and you would probably lose your appetite if you did know). MS execs took everybody on a tour of the disgusting kitchen of the games industry.
    05-27-2013 12:04 AM
  8. TonyDedrick's Avatar
    That's the "hardcore" game market.

    You can't half-*** your way to a AAA title.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that a game be mediocre. What I am saying is that there is no way the current model can sustain this industry. Indie games, for example, have shown AAA quality can be produced at a fraction of the cost. But like its siblings(movies and music) its much easier to go with names and content that will sell and take very few risk. Its why we see so many movie sequels/remakes/reboots and artist who all sound-alike.

    As far as half-tushing it, that's been another issue with some developers trying to find other ways to further punish gamers for their mistakes. Lets put out a incomplete game @ $60 and charge them an additional $20 to unlock stuff that should be available on the game day one and in many cases, is already on the disc.
    05-27-2013 08:44 AM
  9. Flagz's Avatar
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that a game be mediocre. What I am saying is that there is no way the current model can sustain this industry. Indie games, for example, have shown AAA quality can be produced at a fraction of the cost. But like its siblings(movies and music) its much easier to go with names and content that will sell and take very few risk. Its why we see so many movie sequels/remakes/reboots and artist who all sound-alike.

    As far as half-tushing it, that's been another issue with some developers trying to find other ways to further punish gamers for their mistakes. Lets put out a incomplete game @ $60 and charge them an additional $20 to unlock stuff that should be available on the game day one and in many cases, is already on the disc.
    And the truth is, your right, that is half assing. Countless games are half assed nowadays and as long as they can have a avid follower of the studio, they studio can do what ever they please. I hate seeing companies say "This DLC will be launching on Release for an additional $19.99 or 1600 MSP!"
    05-27-2013 08:59 AM
  10. Reflexx's Avatar
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that a game be mediocre. What I am saying is that there is no way the current model can sustain this industry. Indie games, for example, have shown AAA quality can be produced at a fraction of the cost. But like its siblings(movies and music) its much easier to go with names and content that will sell and take very few risk. Its why we see so many movie sequels/remakes/reboots and artist who all sound-alike.
    Indie games can be fun. But they aren't AAA blockbusters. It's not like music, where a small and talented group of people can make something rivaling the quality of the big houses.

    Even in films, Indies can be entertaining. But you're not going to come close to something with even a modest amount of special effects.

    Like it or not, there is a very real demand for games with cutting-edge graphics, complex AI, and other things that push technology. These things cannot be done by an Indie studio.

    These things require large teams of people to work long hours for years. And these people all have to earn a living.

    As far as half-tushing it, that's been another issue with some developers trying to find other ways to further punish gamers for their mistakes. Lets put out a incomplete game @ $60 and charge them an additional $20 to unlock stuff that should be available on the game day one and in many cases, is already on the disc.
    Ever think that the reason they do that is because the games just cost so much to make?

    Though I do agree that the system is broken.

    Studios work their tails off, but often times big publishers hold the purse strings. And the publishers take a big cut (often the vast majority) of the profits.But studios don't have much choice unless they have $20 million lying around.

    It would be nice if there were more situations like Bungie's, where they can be owned by a publisher for a while and achieve success, then can buy their independence after they've made a name for themselves.

    And as for this system not being able to sustain itself... that's pretty obvious. That's why there is a used game solution that developers have been clamoring for. Where the developer could make a cut of a used game sale. That could make up for the prohibitive costs associated with creating expensive products that the public wants.
    05-27-2013 12:11 PM
  11. smoledman's Avatar
    Only AAA titles will got for $60 on launch. The average will be most likely $40.
    05-27-2013 03:18 PM
  12. HeyCori's Avatar
    I believe used prices will either go up or used games will remain at a higher price point for a longer time. Microsoft is most likely developing a system where everyone gets a cut of used games, even "used" digital games. So not only will Gamestop get paid but so will publishers. Microsoft might even develop a system where they get a cut of the profit for digitally trading games too. The only thing I'm worried about is being able to lend a game to a friend or reselling through other outlets like ebay or Craigslist. However, I think a satisfactory system will be worked out.

    Personally, I'm not against publishers getting a cut as long as I can still buy and sell used games. I always try to buy new to support the developers but I realize the importance of used games. I really hope the additional funds go towards keeping devs on the payroll. Game development is such a volatile industry. Layoffs happen so often that it's hard to keep track. I have a friend that works for EA and even though he makes 60k a year, job security is a real issue to him. You'd think EA would consider him a valued member of the team to pay him that much. Nope, EA will drop him and his team the second sales dip below expectations.

    I remember reading an argument between two people about the importance of Nickelback. One guy was saying that, as ludicrous as it sounds, Nickelback is very important to the music ecosystem. Nickelback's awesome (read: terrible) music sells in the millions and brings in massive profits for the record label. Labels use those profits to sign/fund better bands but they're also riskier investments because they're new. So in a roundabout way, Nickelback's success actually makes it easier for other bands to get signed (granted, whether bands should sign with record labels is also arguable).

    To relate that to video games. Franchises like Call of Duty, Halo or Madden have huge sales but they also have huge turnovers on the used market. Say EA sold a million used copies of Madden 2014, even if EA's cut was just $1 that's still a million dollars they can put towards paying devs or investing in new, riskier IPs. That sounds like a win-win. Gamestop gets paid. EA gets paid. And devs get to keep their job. That's a fee I would gladly pay because, long-term, it should theoretically improve the industry.
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    05-28-2013 11:14 AM
  13. tk-093's Avatar
    It will be interesting as to what happens, and keep in mind PS4 will have something in place too. Both systems allow you to install the game and at that point no longer need a disk to ever play it again.

    Used games, movie rental stores, gamefly, swapping games with a buddy... all that is going to change... big time... I believe BluRay has the ability to stamp each disk with a unique serial number so that will likely be how they control it.

    Some type of online requirement is going to have to exist for the X1 and PS4, otherwise maybe the fallback will be if you can't get online, you need to keep the disk in the drive? I bet that will be the offline fix.
    05-28-2013 12:58 PM
  14. Coreldan's Avatar
    Some type of online requirement is going to have to exist for the X1 and PS4, otherwise maybe the fallback will be if you can't get online, you need to keep the disk in the drive? I bet that will be the offline fix.
    That actually seems like a pretty good solution. I mean if the disc is still in your posession, I suppose you can't have sold the game or anything :D

    However problem comes with non-retail/digital downloads, these would still be left with no offline-fallback with that idea. Except considering that to sell/trade the digital game, you would certainly have to be online and be able to access some used games-market, most likely. So to be able to sell a used digital game, you need to be online so at the very moment you sell it away, it would at the same time render the installed game useless.
    05-28-2013 01:08 PM
  15. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    That actually seems like a pretty good solution. I mean if the disc is still in your posession, I suppose you can't have sold the game or anything :D

    However problem comes with non-retail/digital downloads, these would still be left with no offline-fallback with that idea. Except considering that to sell/trade the digital game, you would certainly have to be online and be able to access some used games-market, most likely. So to be able to sell a used digital game, you need to be online so at the very moment you sell it away, it would at the same time render the installed game useless.
    Remember, there will be no difference at all between physical and digital. It's simply a different delivery method. Buying a used game at GameStop will be no different from buying a used game in the marketplace.

    You will buy a used game from GameStop if you don't want to download it. Technically, there doesn't even need to be any to prevent people from copying and burning the disc. The physical disc is only for delivery. You can not use the physical disc to exploit the system at all anyways. If you alter the files on the disc, the console is going to compare the files with the latest game files in the cloud. If the files don't match, they will update/patch them.

    No serial number is going to be on the physical disc or tied to it. It will simply be whether you have the game registered to your account or not. If someone takes your disc, and then puts it in their system, it will prompt them to purchase the game. If they purchase the game, it will not affect you at all.

    If you want to get money for the game, you need to give up your registration. Simple as that. Otherwise, give the game away. It won't affect anyone. It just simply give someone else an easier delivery method.
    Reflexx likes this.
    05-28-2013 01:29 PM
  16. Coreldan's Avatar
    Remember, there will be no difference at all between physical and digital. It's simply a different delivery method. Buying a used game at GameStop will be no different from buying a used game in the marketplace.

    You will buy a used game from GameStop if you don't want to download it. Technically, there doesn't even need to be any to prevent people from copying and burning the disc. The physical disc is only for delivery. You can not use the physical disc to exploit the system at all anyways. If you alter the files on the disc, the console is going to compare the files with the latest game files in the cloud. If the files don't match, they will update/patch them.

    No serial number is going to be on the physical disc or tied to it. It will simply be whether you have the game registered to your account or not. If someone takes your disc, and then puts it in their system, it will prompt them to purchase the game. If they purchase the game, it will not affect you at all.

    If you want to get money for the game, you need to give up your registration. Simple as that. Otherwise, give the game away. It won't affect anyone. It just simply give someone else an easier delivery method.
    My post was more about the "offline fallback" rather than the whole DRM stuff in general.
    05-28-2013 01:40 PM
  17. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    My post was more about the "offline fallback" rather than the whole DRM stuff in general.
    I know. I was trying to explain everything because it also answers that question. There is no offline fallback. This system is designed around an internet connection. You need to be online to register a new game. You need to be online regularly to continue playing that game. And you need to be online to sell/trade that game.
    05-28-2013 01:49 PM
  18. Coreldan's Avatar
    Probably, but it was more so brainstorming how could the need for constant online checking be "bypassed". There are still handful of scenarios where having the X1 offline is a viable idea, such as internet outages, vacations in location with electricity but no internet, etc.

    Although nowadays when just about all phones can tether internet, it shouldn't really be a problem either
    Robert Carpenter likes this.
    05-28-2013 02:51 PM
  19. tk-093's Avatar
    I know. I was trying to explain everything because it also answers that question. There is no offline fallback. This system is designed around an internet connection. You need to be online to register a new game. You need to be online regularly to continue playing that game. And you need to be online to sell/trade that game.
    I don't think all of that is set it stone yet. We don't know for a fact that there is no offline fallback. I'm sure they would like to avoid it, but let's face it, there is a still a good chunk of people who are not online.

    This is how I would do it... I think the disk will be important. As I mentioned on a Blu-Ray you can encode a specifc ID number on each disk you create. When you install that disk it pretty much ties your Live account to that specific disk. If for some chance you are unable to get to the internet for the spot check, the game could pause and say to continue please enter the install disk. That way offline people are covered.

    As for rentals, they could stamp special disks with a range of ID numbers that the One reads as rental disks and requires they be in the drive even after install.

    That's what I would do anyway. :)
    Reflexx likes this.
    05-28-2013 02:58 PM
  20. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    Probably, but it was more so brainstorming how could the need for constant online checking be "bypassed". There are still handful of scenarios where having the X1 offline is a viable idea, such as internet outages, vacations in location with electricity but no internet, etc.

    Although nowadays when just about all phones can tether internet, it shouldn't really be a problem either
    I think the optimal solution is to do exactly what they are doing, but increase the "online DRM checks" to a 1 week interval. I think 1 week without internet is a very reasonable timespan that would cover most vacations and scenarios.

    Couple this with a way to authenticate your game DRM using a cell phone, and that should be more than enough for modern times.
    05-28-2013 03:00 PM
  21. tk-093's Avatar
    I think the optimal solution is to do exactly what they are doing, but increase the "online DRM checks" to a 1 week interval. I think 1 week without internet is a very reasonable timespan that would cover most vacations and scenarios.

    Couple this with a way to authenticate your game DRM using a cell phone, and that should be more than enough for modern times.
    One week seems like a long time. You could rent a game and install it on you and your 5 buddies X1s and play the heck out of it in one week.
    05-28-2013 03:06 PM
  22. SnailUK's Avatar
    I think the optimal solution is to do exactly what they are doing, but increase the "online DRM checks" to a 1 week interval. I think 1 week without internet is a very reasonable timespan that would cover most vacations and scenarios.
    I'd disagree.

    With your model, you can easily buy a game, install/activate it, then sell it the same day, and have a week to complete it.

    In my mind, i'd keep the one day rule, and if that fails, then revert back to a disk check. Which allows a genuine user to keep using the game indefinitely, as long as you have a disk.
    05-28-2013 03:09 PM
  23. Bicpug's Avatar
    A lot of AAA games cost so much because the devs have gotten used to ******* the money away hiring hollywood actors for cut scenes,i goto the movies to see hollywood actors; If you must have cut scenes use unknowns who can act.
    05-28-2013 03:10 PM
  24. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    One week seems like a long time. You could rent a game and install it on you and your 5 buddies X1s and play the heck out of it in one week.
    That is why you need to be connected to install/register a game. The one-week period is after a connection has been established.

    I don't think game rentals are going to be possible with Xbox One. The only way for game rentals to work is if they have a "rental code". You need to enter the rental code to install/register the game. If you use the code, your friends won't be able to use it because the code is already used.

    Therefore, the scenario you described is not possible. :)
    05-28-2013 03:13 PM
  25. Robert Carpenter's Avatar
    I'd disagree.

    With your model, you can easily buy a game, install/activate it, then sell it the same day, and have a week to complete it.

    In my mind, i'd keep the one day rule, and if that fails, then revert back to a disk check. Which allows a genuine user to keep using the game indefinitely, as long as you have a disk.
    Valid point, but it raises another question. What is the difference between selling the game the day you bought it, or waiting a week to sell it?

    In the gaming world, an open box is an open box whether it was purchased last week or yesterday.

    What are you gaining by doing this?
    05-28-2013 03:20 PM
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