10-02-2017 07:01 PM
58 123
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  1. aj173's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    07-27-2017 11:14 AM
  2. techiez's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.

    Agreed, and probably MS already understands this, most likely they want to pitch the Windows on Arm devices in niche categories with enterprise focus, like PDAs, handhelds and other mobile devices to be used by field staff with custom developed applications. Enterprises want such devices. However its a fan fantasy that surface phone will be MS comeback to consumer mobile space, and the lack of apps will be negated by presence of desktop apps, I havent seen any logical reasoning so far just noise that why will not ppl want a full desktop on mobile.

    only developer in interest in UWP can save windows mobile and it is not going to happen with the help of WoA.

    I do believe the rumors that the so called surface phone or any other mobile device will not have WoA but a different version similar to current W10M as it makes more sense.
    a5cent likes this.
    07-29-2017 01:56 AM
  3. covfefe's Avatar
    Docking. Dock your phone at work. Dock into your car's entertainment system. Dock on a plane. Dock on a train. Dock in your house. Dock with a mouse. Dock it here. Dock it there. You can almost dock it anywhere.
    07-29-2017 04:20 AM
  4. TgeekB's Avatar
    Docking. Dock your phone at work. Dock into your car's entertainment system. Dock on a plane. Dock on a train. Dock in your house. Dock with a mouse. Dock it here. Dock it there. You can almost dock it anywhere.
    Maybe in 20 years or so, when all those places have docks.
    VetDuarte, Elky64 and techiez like this.
    07-29-2017 07:20 AM
  5. Williaml99's Avatar
    What Surface Phone? :)
    sniperboywc and anon(5383410) like this.
    07-29-2017 09:58 AM
  6. Elky64's Avatar
    I see no point in MS trying to replicate the desktop experience on mobile, in my opinion they need to stick to the K-I-S-S rule, or at least they should have. Besides the fact working on such a small device for a period of time would become such a pain (imo), just don't think technology is there yet where I'd be sustainable.
    Last edited by Elky64; 08-01-2017 at 04:46 AM.
    sasivarnan likes this.
    07-29-2017 11:18 AM
  7. Joe920's Avatar
    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    I asked a while back what people would do differently with WoA, and the responses don't really show anything that would sway the common user imo. Personally I'd love it for docking and use with audio peripherals, and I can see the enterprise market going for it, but the average user not so much.

    https://forums.windowscentral.com/wi...ws-10-arm.html
    techiez likes this.
    07-29-2017 03:28 PM
  8. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Docking. Dock your phone at work. Dock into your car's entertainment system. Dock on a plane. Dock on a train. Dock in your house. Dock with a mouse. Dock it here. Dock it there. You can almost dock it anywhere.
    Dr. Seuss in da house!!
    Joe920 likes this.
    07-29-2017 05:47 PM
  9. AndyHolliday123's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    Apps. If you can run say bluestacks and install any Android app then the os has a good chance. If you can't install Android or ios apps then phones running Windows are McDoomed simple as that.
    07-31-2017 09:40 AM
  10. AbstractKiller's Avatar
    Full feature support would be the main benefit. The core kernel/OS would receive frequent updates.

    Where those features/updates benefit a CShell enabled UI/feature/function then the benefit would be felt on mobile at the same time as the Desktop/Tablet/Xbox/IoT equivalent.

    There seems to be a complete misunderstanding of the convergence of OneCore and the purpose of 'Windows on Arm' and Adaptable CShell.

    Cshell is what you see - the UI/UX User Interface/Experience. Cshell is an interpretive layer that sits on top of the core/kernel exactly the same as the existing Shell, but the fuss is all about how this new adaptable shell is context-aware and will shift to fit the display/interface at any given moment.

    As a 'traditional' mobile it would look and function exactly as Windows 10 Mobile currently does - plug in a screen and *magic* it's Windows 10 Desktop (assuming WoA and Cshell ever arrive in full).

    Windows on ARM is pivotal in the above being possible on a mobile device (without a x86/x64 processor).

    Windows on ARM introduces multiple emulation, kernel and driver-level interfaces, or in laymans terms allows these various parts of the windows system, it's hardware and software to communicate. Intel and AMD based x86/x64 processors communicate in a completely different language to the ARM-based processors common in tablets, IoT devices and smartphones.


    Neither Windows on ARM or CShell are a magic bullet on their own - the combination of these development (if ever released to phone) would ensure the future development of the platform and extend its' feature-set.


    The sad, insulting, truth to all this is that Microsoft have tested WoA - it works (*on existing sod*ing 820 chipsets, cough 950, cough Elite X3*), they have already accidentally released a mobile build that includes CShell, but they refuse to say diddly-squat about mobile, give any indication of commitment and leave us all to wish, pray, attack each other and the Windows Mobile Insider and Mobile communities implode.
    07-31-2017 09:46 AM
  11. nik mourouzis's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    Maybe ms is seeing or possibly developing something we can't see yet. I doubt it, but when they brought the surface it was something completely new.
    07-31-2017 09:52 AM
  12. Donny James's Avatar
    Full feature support would be the main benefit. The core kernel/OS would receive frequent updates.

    Where those features/updates benefit a CShell enabled UI/feature/function then the benefit would be felt on mobile at the same time as the Desktop/Tablet/Xbox/IoT equivalent.

    There seems to be a complete misunderstanding of the convergence of OneCore and the purpose of 'Windows on Arm' and Adaptable CShell.

    Cshell is what you see - the UI/UX User Interface/Experience. Cshell is an interpretive layer that sits on top of the core/kernel exactly the same as the existing Shell, but the fuss is all about how this new adaptable shell is context-aware and will shift to fit the display/interface at any given moment.

    As a 'traditional' mobile it would look and function exactly as Windows 10 Mobile currently does - plug in a screen and *magic* it's Windows 10 Desktop (assuming WoA and Cshell ever arrive in full).

    Windows on ARM is pivotal in the above being possible on a mobile device (without a x86/x64 processor).

    Windows on ARM introduces multiple emulation, kernel and driver-level interfaces, or in laymans terms allows these various parts of the windows system, it's hardware and software to communicate. Intel and AMD based x86/x64 processors communicate in a completely different language to the ARM-based processors common in tablets, IoT devices and smartphones.


    Neither Windows on ARM or CShell are a magic bullet on their own - the combination of these development (if ever released to phone) would ensure the future development of the platform and extend its' feature-set.


    The sad, insulting, truth to all this is that Microsoft have tested WoA - it works (*on existing sod*ing 820 chipsets, cough 950, cough Elite X3*), they have already accidentally released a mobile build that includes CShell, but they refuse to say diddly-squat about mobile, give any indication of commitment and leave us all to wish, pray, attack each other and the Windows Mobile Insider and Mobile communities implode.
    Great comment. I couldn't have said it better. But to answer your last paragraph. Microsoft doesn't want to invest the time and money to fully build out a non buggy version of the OS for he Elite x3 and 950 since the user base is so small. They also did all they could do to get the user base to where it is now. So they created this situation on purpose. The demo video we saw on CSHell here on windows central they did say it was very buggy. With the cost of development and time, I think they'd rather just focus on the future than the past.
    07-31-2017 09:54 AM
  13. Peter Libbrecht's Avatar
    Wireless docking, like miracast, but more performant
    07-31-2017 10:06 AM
  14. Xsled's Avatar
    It isn't really about a 'phone' for MS anymore. Sure, they will build a device to resemble what we see as a phone today, but that is just a reference point just as the Surface line already is today. It is about having windows on any screen size and any form factor. The devices that will come from that will depend on market demand, just like the pc space.
    ralexand56 likes this.
    07-31-2017 10:10 AM
  15. FearL0rd's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    no I don't trust on MS anymore for mobile.
    CraigCole likes this.
    07-31-2017 10:13 AM
  16. Asif Shadab Malick's Avatar
    It wont. But thd world exists upon hope. And windows phone fans are a part of it too. Hope. Shawshank redemption.
    07-31-2017 10:26 AM
  17. epakrat75's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    What you've done has been possible since the iPhone. I did it. RDP is not something everyone is aware of or knows how to use. It is a barrier to cross.

    On the other hand, being able to install real Windows apps directly from the Windows store is something that people won't have problem with because many have already been trained to do it. Apple has only done this on their Desktop OS while MS will be the first to do it on both desktop and their mobile platform. That's big IMO.

    However you've probably never natively run full Windows 10 on a Windows 10 phone unless you're an insider. There are many advantages to running a native app vs remotely running one on an actual computer. You can't run apps offline if you're using RDP and you're always at the mercy of whatever network your on. If you're on your own, you might be ok but outside the internet is hardly infallible. Lol.

    Whether it will be a savior or not will be about what existing barriers are broken down, whether the performance / latency improvements as well as direct access to otherwise unavailable hardware will be used in beneficial ways. Windows already has the largest software catalog of any OS and bringing that to a mobile platform has the potential to be HUGE.

    Do you prefer to use a website for a particular service on your mobile device or it's native app? Why?
    07-31-2017 10:27 AM
  18. pallentx's Avatar
    It absolutely wont be what the enthusiasts hope. The dream of Windows on phones as a legitimate 3rd consumer platform choice is done. Its over. I hate that because its still my favorite OS, but its reality.

    True, its not "dead, dead". There will be small-ish touch devices that run windows. They will be niche devices, mostly enterprise oriented. They aren't going to be anything that will resurrect the dream of Windows being a good 3rd consumer phone option. They wont sell in big numbers. They wont get significant developer support. They don't change the consumer landscape as we know it.
    dgr_874, a5cent and techiez like this.
    07-31-2017 10:29 AM
  19. Asif Shadab Malick's Avatar
    btw, most of the time i try to pist something on WC, y do i get this error mesg: "No DrupalSession".
    07-31-2017 10:30 AM
  20. Vittorio Vaselli's Avatar
    I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

    I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.
    Having desktop Windows on phone will not help, that the reason it will never happen. Is something made up by blogs and fans.
    techiez likes this.
    07-31-2017 10:34 AM
  21. real0395's Avatar
    Full feature support would be the main benefit. The core kernel/OS would receive frequent updates.

    Where those features/updates benefit a CShell enabled UI/feature/function then the benefit would be felt on mobile at the same time as the Desktop/Tablet/Xbox/IoT equivalent.

    There seems to be a complete misunderstanding of the convergence of OneCore and the purpose of 'Windows on Arm' and Adaptable CShell.

    Cshell is what you see - the UI/UX User Interface/Experience. Cshell is an interpretive layer that sits on top of the core/kernel exactly the same as the existing Shell, but the fuss is all about how this new adaptable shell is context-aware and will shift to fit the display/interface at any given moment.

    As a 'traditional' mobile it would look and function exactly as Windows 10 Mobile currently does - plug in a screen and *magic* it's Windows 10 Desktop (assuming WoA and Cshell ever arrive in full).

    Windows on ARM is pivotal in the above being possible on a mobile device (without a x86/x64 processor).

    Windows on ARM introduces multiple emulation, kernel and driver-level interfaces, or in laymans terms allows these various parts of the windows system, it's hardware and software to communicate. Intel and AMD based x86/x64 processors communicate in a completely different language to the ARM-based processors common in tablets, IoT devices and smartphones.


    Neither Windows on ARM or CShell are a magic bullet on their own - the combination of these development (if ever released to phone) would ensure the future development of the platform and extend its' feature-set.


    The sad, insulting, truth to all this is that Microsoft have tested WoA - it works (*on existing sod*ing 820 chipsets, cough 950, cough Elite X3*), they have already accidentally released a mobile build that includes CShell, but they refuse to say diddly-squat about mobile, give any indication of commitment and leave us all to wish, pray, attack each other and the Windows Mobile Insider and Mobile communities implode.
    Regarding your last paragraph, I think the issue is that they technically could get it to work completely on an 820 chipset but the experience may suck and it probably isn't economically worth doing that with a small user base. Though, I do agree with you about their communication to consumers.
    07-31-2017 11:00 AM
  22. cr_buck's Avatar
    There is one main benefit. Reduction in hardware expenditures, license expenditures, and device support costs for business. Having a server for RDP is expensive and requires expensive licensing and still requires a phone to accomplish if you are going to use a phone. Cloud services are cheaper than on prem RDP and since most staff do tasks that modern mobile processors can do you can get rid of the desktop/laptop as well. That means no paying for a server, server software licensing, extra bandwidth, extra IT staff, laptop/desktop and phone, laptop/desktop software licensing and support. If done properly such a device could mean even enterprise could avoid buying everything but the cloud service. The phones could be cloud managed via Azure AD and Office 365 with limited hardware on prem. Most staff also wouldn't need a desktop or laptop since the same phone could do even basic desktop tasks like office if they wanted it. Since the number of devices support is reduced you can also reduce support staff costs. With limited need for device provisioning staff could be up and running too almost completely hands off by IT. This could apply to SMBs and Enterprise. Of course the larger number of devices would mean enterprise would reap the largest savings.

    In short, if done right, a huge decrease in the hidden costs of technology.
    07-31-2017 11:02 AM
  23. xsonwong's Avatar
    Um...we just want to see the commitment from MS again...
    07-31-2017 11:14 AM
  24. cBickmeier's Avatar
    I see two benefits that could be a real game changer.

    The first is a more efficient development pipline (as described by AbstractKiller), that would lead to shorter development cycles across the whole Windows universe.

    The second point is, that da Surface "Phone" will not be a "phone" that could be compared to an iPhone or Galaxy. It will be a mobile PC that can handle phone calls and creates a whole new category of devices that could realy attract consumers and could shake up everything.

    You ask yourself: why?

    1. Imagine a Surface "phone" (or lets call it "Surface Mobile") that has a formfactor like the X3 but can transform itself to a tablet and can dock to external devices (Display, Keyboard, mouse, Webcam etc. and perhaps external GPU) and transform to a "real" PC. In this scenrio consumers could ask themself if it makes sense to purchase a phone, a tablet, a Notebook and a PC when they could just purchase a Surface Mobile (and the benefits of having a "tablet everywhere" and no Need for syncing different devices.

    Imagine the following scenarios:

    1. You have a workdeskt in your office and your home Office where you can dock your SM and continue working without syncing etc.

    2. You have a notebook-dock (like that for the X3) when you need a "real" PC on the go

    3. You can dock your SM to your TV and it brings up the Xbox-UI that can be controlled with a xbox-controller that is connected to the dock (for Netflix, Webbrowsing, Music, showing your Pictures and lightwight gaming)

    4. You can wreless doch you SM to a hotel TV and work while on the go

    5. You can wireless project a "real" Desktop to every Windows Computer and use your PC on the go (for example with the PC from a collegue)

    6. You can project a "real" desktop with the integrated (or attached) table top projector on the table and use your "real PC" everywhere

    7. I dont know, but I think there are many more scenarios :-)

    So... yes... I'm still optimistic and I think if MS get the SM right, there will be a chance to create a while new device category that attracts businesses AND consumers
    07-31-2017 11:14 AM
  25. macgyverated's Avatar
    Maybe this is an example of looking at the same scenery from two very different angles...

    I use Windows Phone because I like it compared to other platforms. It's fast, fluid, unique, and more interactive than other platforms. As an It pro, I like how it integrates and syncs with my Windows ecosystems at work and at home. I also like that I'm not in the walled garden of iPhone, or the Wild West virus-laden free-for-all of Android, constantly dodging bullets while also divulging the essence of who I am to Google and its partners.

    The reason most of us choose a phone platform has little to do with the"'phone" part of it, and is more about apps and features, along with hardware specs. Making a phone call or sending and receiving text messages is a trivial affair, and one that all platforms perform well. But we buy into phone mostly for the "computer" part of what it does, and less for the raw telephony features, which are largely standardized.

    I want Windows on ARM primarily because I want to retain the features and capabilities I have grown to love about Windows Phone and Windows 10. That those devices will also be able to send and receive calls and texts is almost secondary. Yes, I need those features, but they can easily be integrated into any platform with the right radios. I just happen to want my telephony capabilities on a device that runs full Windows, and with CShell, one that will "act" like Windows Phone when that is all I need. Seriously, I see Windows 10 on ARM with telephony as a killer device. Add in how well it works within the greater Windows ecosystem (particularly in the business world) and it makes FAR too much sense not to have a device like that. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

    Just knowing that I could outfit our field staff with a single device that handles voice and text communication, email, GPS and other location-aware services, x86/x64 applications (like the full Office Suite), and is also app capable... I mean, what else could I ask for?! It would save me tens of thousands on hardware and licenses, as well as halving how many devices I have to update, maintain, and repair. It is a functional nexus that many in my field have daydreamed about, and we are closer than ever to having it in the real world.
    NeilP1969 likes this.
    07-31-2017 11:31 AM
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