Why do people think that Windows 10 on ARM can save Surface Phone?

[aj173]

I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.

 

[MullenWP]

I can think of 3 problems. If these 3 problems can't be solved, WoA doesn't help.
1. Mobile apps. Actually, it's not about the apps that suitable for mobile, but the apps that currently only available on mobile and you can't complete the task with your PC. Maybe you need that to control your smart home device, to participate some event, to check news, or to play video games (e.g., Nintendo Switch). Nowadays more and more services only available on mobile apps, and they don't even have web portal. WoA can only replicate desktop experience, but that's still not enough.
I know some may say the device is for a specific market and it's ok to not having those apps. But is that true? For any individual (other than die-hard fan), that means they need another phone to complete the everyday tasks. Meanwhile, the competitors are also working on docking experience. If there's limitation set for WoA (e.g., only selected apps from Store, like WinS), it's possible that even for the specific market, competitors have better overall experiences.
2. Stability. W10M is so buggy, and the API is so limited and broken. Sometimes I could understand why devs abandon their app or don't fix some issue, not because they are lazy, but because they can't do that: either there's no such API, or the function they depends on is buggy on W10M. I don't think WoA can fix that as well, if not introducing more bugs.
3. Trust. How could devs and customers trust yet another reboot? If it's just the first or second times, it's ok. But this is the 4th time. I assume it will take really great effect to build the trust again this time.

I really hope that besides WoA, there's Android side-load app support (with limitation, e.g., number of apps), so at least problem 1 could really get fixed.

 

[ralexand56]

Windows on ARM won't make a difference. The key here is that LTE chip that every ARM processor comes with that can make a difference. MS will need a game changing mobile device to pull it off, though, meaning original iPhone level game changing hardware. What that lte chip will allow them to do is get subsidized hardware delivered to consumers by tmobile, att, Verizon etc., so that poor people can afford these devices. Once consumers become used to having a full powered, always on pc that can take notes, make calls in a pinch etc. then maybe the sure numbers could drive dev support. But again, that will take some sexy hardware to pull off. All the naysayers saying the game is over doesn't know the tech market very well. Same was said about windows, same was said about Nokia, netscape, Motorola. Market leaders are constantly upended and few people see it coming until it's too late.

 

[GreyFox7]

Maybe in 20 years or so, when all those places have docks.

We used to call that boiling the ocean. When everything has to be replaced or upgraded in order to take advantage of a minor technology enhancement.

 

[AbstractKiller]

Sorry, I got into a bit of a rant in the last paragraph (it's frustrating to follow Microsoft in their efforts, but as a Brit I do love an underdog)...

Yes, certainly: in all fairness I wouldn't take any issue if Microsoft were straight-up and honest - none of us can expect that aged handsets/devices will or should be supported forever - every consumable in this world has an expected end of life (no offense friends here: but the same applies to the x20/x30 ranges - you really shouldn't expect forever support and you can spoof your device type if you want to continue using your 920/930 etc. with latest builds). The point is more that we know builds exist and work (albeit likely doggedly on existing hardware - the positive for X3/950 users may be that the same device spoofing may be an option - to be seen).

My big gripe is that they won't even acknowledge Mobile or Windows Mobilke users (ahem, their "Insiders"!) and tell us "Winter is Coming" - except for minor excerpts or throw-away comments nested within wider announcements. We know they haven't dropped "Mobile" - that would spell the end of Windows (full-stop) - maybe not today, but portability and smartphones dominate browsing and % usage of "computers".

All they need to do is give us some update - even if it is simply an update to their strategy.

I do honestly expect that internal builds are in testing ready for a heavy push of a new generation of hardware (we've already seen the Cshell demo already mentioned) - likely staged:
i) Allow some initial Windows 10 S userbase, telemetry and feedback;
ii) Gain Cloud-Services buy-in and reliance from 3rd Party OS users;
iii) Push WoA Tablets
(All of the above further building both Microsoft dependency and/or users to entice UWP developers)
iv) Surface "Phone" (personally, I think I like "Surface Pocket" best)
v) OEM partners

 

[Lepoete]

I see a 6" phone, or is it a tablet that can make phone calls that have many docking possibilities. Give it a 6" keyboard dock and you can have full Windows with keyboard anytime you want carried in your pocket or attached at your belt (see GDP pocket PC as an example to start with). Give it a desktop dock and it can be your office computer. Dock through USB-C and any PC/laptop can become its monitor (it would be great to also enable auto-mount of drives from the docked computer as well).

Miracast should be there as well like on current W10M phones but I'm not a big fan because it's slow.

 

[Manny067]

I already have full Windows 10 on my Lumia 1520. It's called RDPing through my desktop. It's nice to have full W10 on my phone in a few very specific circumstances, but overall, I fail to see how this will add anything to the mobile experience. It's nothing that great. I also fail to see how leveraging the desktop user base will do anything to bring missing phone-centric apps to Windows.

I hate to go full Thurott on everybody, but I'm just wondering what people are seeing that I'm not. As somebody who's used full W10 on a phone, it just doesn't seem like a savior to me.

I've used Windows phones, and I think they have the coolest display. But our main gripe is the lack of more of the popular apps. Maybe we should conduct a survey to see which ones we would really like to see added, and forget all the thousands of unnecessary ones - just give us the best! I mean, who wants to choose from 100 flashlight apps!

 

[Gunbust3r]

Seeing as it's been months since the announcement of Win 10 on ARM and they are still keeping demos and performance numbers secret tells me it runs like a dog. Atom speed at best and running on an Atom convertible is still painful, will only be worse working in the power/thermal envelope of an handset.

 

[jack69453]

No it will not. On tablets for Prosumers and enterprise it will be great. But for consumers; not even close.

 

[a5cent]

No it will not. On tablets for Prosumers and enterprise it will be great. But for consumers; not even close.

I consider this far too superficial to be of much value. Why will it be great for prosumers and the enterprise but not for consumers? This is thrown around all over the place but never explained.

 

[anon(9065580)]

"Is Windows 10 on ARM really the savior Windows phone fans are hoping for?"

no ...
... ms has already stated it is not meant for phones.

however since ms is ignoring and actively torturing windows mobile users with neglect and obviouse disinterest, the few fans left have been grasping at straws for years now and right now Win10 on ARM is the least sh*tty straw ms has out there ... even as it is declared not to be for mobile at all by ms itself.

 

[jack69453]

a5cent;

Prosumers have money and knowledge of what they want and why they want it. Enterprise have lots of money and specific use cases where this device will make sense. Consumers want a phone, that can do whats app, email, take pictures and look good; without costing too much. Note the difference between the Prosumer and the Consumer. The Prosumer is more discerning and wiling to invest some time in looking for the right match, they are usually professionals in some area or persons who use their devices for more than pleasure. They want bang for the buck and are not afraid to spend. Consumers tend to use their devices almost exclusively for pleasure and they are not willing to do too much reasearch, they also want low prices.

If you look at the demos for Windows on ARM, you would not have seen facebook, or whats app demoed. You would have seen applications used by professionals or prosumers more often than consumers.

Windows on ARM will be pricey, no doubt about that. Which most consumers out immediately as they can get the same or similar features from another platform. Enterprise and Prosumers on the other hand will look for the features that will address the uses cases they have and then make a decision.

 

[CryptoSys]

Good question !

 

[a5cent]

a5cent;

Prosumers have money and knowledge of what they want and why they want it. Enterprise have lots of money and specific use cases where this device will make sense. Consumers want a phone, that can do whats app, email, take pictures and look good; without costing too much. Note the difference between the Prosumer and the Consumer. The Prosumer is more discerning and wiling to invest some time in looking for the right match, they are usually professionals in some area or persons who use their devices for more than pleasure. They want bang for the buck and are not afraid to spend. Consumers tend to use their devices almost exclusively for pleasure and they are not willing to do too much reasearch, they also want low prices.

If you look at the demos for Windows on ARM, you would not have seen facebook, or whats app demoed. You would have seen applications used by professionals or prosumers more often than consumers.

Windows on ARM will be pricey, no doubt about that. Which most consumers out immediately as they can get the same or similar features from another platform. Enterprise and Prosumers on the other hand will look for the features that will address the uses cases they have and then make a decision.

Yes, that seems like a good definition of the differences between consumers, prosumers and enterprise customers.

However, I don't think that explains why W10oA will be great for prosumers and enterprise customers.

You have two arguments

1)
W10oA will be too expensive for consumers.

I disagree. When compared to ultramobile laptops, which is what these will actually be competing with (not smartphones) I fully expect W10oA devices to be price competitive if not cheaper. That's one of the reasons for using ARM to begin with. They are far cheaper than what Intel offers! If they end up being more expensive, then that will be due to a much higher profit margin for the OEMs, which I really don't see happening (due to competition).

2)
Prosumers know what they want and enterprise customers have specific use cases.

While that's true, it doesn't tell us WHY W10oA devices will be what prosumers want or WHAT those use cases are that only W10oA can fullfil. That's the biggest problem with these claims. What is it about W10oA that will get either group to spend money on them (a lot according to your prediction), rather than just keep using what they already have or modernizing with cheap, standard, low-risk and proven x86 ultramobile laptops?

The claim that W10oA will be great for prosumers and the enterprise, but not for consumers, seems meaningless to me before those questions are answered and those answers are widely understood.

 

[a5cent]

Why do people think W10oA can save Surface Phone?

Ignorance. Wishful Thinking. Reading too much propaganda on fan sites.

One of the above.

The entire question is so fundamentally flawed that it must be rejected outright. MS is not even trying to save smartphones. Not a Surface Phone or any other brand.

What MS is trying to save is the UWP.

MS no longer has any notable market share in the smartphone space. Popularizing the UWP via smartphones is therefore not feasible. MS will instead attempt to popularize the UWP via other markets where they are still relevant. In part by making the typical desktop experience more mobile. I hope also by other means, but that remains to be seen.

 

[jack69453]

a5cent;
1)
We have to be careful of what we are talking about so just for clarity I am speaking about a WoA device about the size of a phone since that is what the article is talking about. You seem to be talking about WoA on a ultraportable laptop. So let's acknowledge that we are talking about different things. Read on if you still want to on why a phone running WoA would only be suitable for Enterprise and Prosumers, which is what MS seems to think as well.

Having that in mind, and based on the price of the current enterprise devices; which is where WoA is targeted. A consumer would not pay $400-$500 US dollars for a 5-6 inch Windows PC. When they can buy a 11.6 -15 inch laptop and do more with it. A Prosumer or Enterprise user may do that if it fits what they want to do.

Why is the HP x3 running an Arm based processor cost more than a laptop? Why do Android and Windows flagship phones cost over $400 USD? Do you really believe that going to WoA will cut these prices in half?

Consumers don't tend to buy flagship phones. Unless they are very rich. The United States is not the world. In my country the 950XL is priced at $1,599. About half my monthly salary. Get my point? Consumers are not going to throw that kind of money behind a 5 or 6 inch PC.

Additionally an enterprise phone running WoA will require adaptors or docks to make it work like a laptop, a consumer is not going to want to complicate him/herself with adaptors for a 6 inch PC, when they can get a $400 laptop which they are familiar with.

If the manufacturers bring out a WoA device that is over 11 inches (which is where you seem to be thinking), then yes I can see a consumer purchasing it because now they are getting a familiar looking product to a standard laptop for a similar price. So we agree here.

2)
I'm not going to sit here an spell out what consumers and prosumers want because it varies from person to person. This is why manufacturers produce high end, mid range and low end devices. Obviously there is a difference that they saw in the market.

If you don't know why enterprise users will want a PC in their pocket and why consumers would not that's fine. You should probably do a survey among the prosumers, enterprise and consumers that you know and see what phones they use. I think they results will be very informative for you.

A simple test for you would be to find out the average purchasing price for phones from the three groups. I sure you'd find that the consumer group spends the less.

Why would either group spend on a WoA device? 4G on the tablet devices is one thing the enterprise and Prosumer group will buy them for. Consumers would not care for the most part. They don't tend to walk around with tablets to try to surf the net, respond to email, access files documents or services from the cloud, do social media, spreadsheets or analysis while out of the office.

Enterprise and Prosumer are not going to change their laptops to WoA devices. I never suggested they would discard what they have. Again, you are talking about laptops, I'm talking about phones.

What you can probably do that would help you is list out the features (not benefits of WoA) and then see who would benefit most from those features. Then you would have your answer. But you have to be clear in your mind about who Prosumers are, who Consumers are and who Enterprise users are. If you have them muddled, you goin to have difficulty in seeing why consumers would not want all the same things that the Prosumer is getting and be willing to spend for it.

 

[a5cent]

We have to be careful of what we are talking about so just for clarity I am speaking about a WoA device about the size of a phone since that is what the article is talking about. You seem to be talking about WoA on a ultraportable laptop. So let's acknowledge that we are talking about different things. Read on if you still want to on why a phone running WoA would only be suitable for Enterprise and Prosumers, which is what MS seems to think as well.

No. We are talking about the same thing. The difference is only in how we classify it. You're classifying the device based on size (like a smartphone). I'm classifying the device based on the OS and usage (like an ultra mobile laptop). I find my classification more relevant, but ultimately both size and how it is used have a role to play.

Having that in mind, and based on the price of the current enterprise devices; which is where WoA is targeted. A consumer would not pay $400-$500 US dollars for a 5-6 inch Windows PC. When they can buy a 11.6 -15 inch laptop and do more with it. A Prosumer or Enterprise user may do that if it fits what they want to do.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but this doesn't make sense to me.

Of course a consumer would pay $400-$500 US dollars for a 5-6 inch Windows PC. Consumers pay twice that for iPhones. The question is only whether that device does something that consumers think is worth paying that much money for, or whether a separate Windows ultrabook and iOS/Android smartphone isn't just as good or better.

The same is true of prosumers or enterprise customers. They will also only shell out $400-$500 US dollars for a 5-6 inch Windows PC if the cost is justified by its usefulness.

I'm not going to sit here an spell out what consumers and prosumers want because it varies from person to person. This is why manufacturers produce high end, mid range and low end devices. Obviously there is a difference that they saw in the market.

But why not? Surely it can't be that hard to come up with three or four use cases portraying how this device solves notable and widespread problems in a way that is better than any other device or combination of devices. If it's so hard to do that, then W10oA probably doesn't have any reason to exist.

IMHO these must be unique and useful core capabilities. The elevator pitch if you will. This has absolutely nothing to do with high- vs. mid- vs. low-range devices.

If you don't know why enterprise users will want a PC in their pocket and why consumers would not that's fine. You should probably do a survey among the prosumers, enterprise and consumers that you know and see what phones they use. I think they results will be very informative for you.

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying the device is useless, or that I see no benefit to it. However, I'm pretty sure what I see isn't what most others here see.

It's not the device, but the line: "good for enterprise, bad for consumers" which I take issue with. It's thrown around here as if that were self evident. I'd just really like to know what WCentral staff and people here actually mean by that. I suspect that when we dig down, we'll notice that nobody here really understands what it means, or that everybody takes it to mean something else, making it just another empty phrase.

 

[vacancy job]

The most valuable thing for MS is the windows platform, but unfortunately windows is only running on PC, either a laptop or dekstop. As the whole market trend is towards the mobile, which reflected on the tablet and pc over sales.
They are decreasing year over year, the pc is like more toward the working needs. the golden time of every family has a pc is passed.
that's why MS noticed it and try to bring the windows to everyone pocket, i think it's a good idea.
as for now the phone is pretty much for entertainment, take photos, calls, whatsapp, video and music kinda stuff.
If there's a device can do all these stuff and yet it can provide full windows capability it should deserve some market attention.
i could imagine that if i have a device like that, i can cast my pocket pc to my TV and do some work on it, i don't even need a laptop or monitor to do that.
i can do almost everything on it, that's should be quite a good experience...

 

[swanlee]

So the concept of a single Windows Core for all devices to me means I no longer have to depend on MS's crappy support to have a worthwhile phone I enjoy using. From a consumer standpoint the only thing MS supports well is Windows, everything else consumer related they bail on way to soon.

I can take any tablet/pc/laptop from the last 5-8 years and more than likely slap Windows 10 on it and it will run and for the most part works pretty well.

I want something like that for my phone. I don't want to have to rely on MS to make specific Phone efforts cause we all know they will fail and bail.

A 6 inch ARM PC that runs normal windows and gets phones call and can run Win 32 apps plus App store apps has a viable future just by the fact MS doesn't really have to do anything other than support the normal Windows OS.

I want the Surface phone to be a 6 inch PC that gets phone calls and doesn't require much support from MS cause I have ZERO faith in them for the most part.

I hate android and IOS enough to wait it out with my Lumia 950 until I can get a 6 inch PC that gets phone calls.