The Windows Phone App Gap Thread

[a5cent]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

My apologies in advance for being direct, but that has to be one of most blind allegiance and ridiculous statements I've seen yet from a WP user.

Not understanding a statement doesn't make it ridiculous.

A LOT of developers expect web technologies to eventually replace apps on mobile, very similar to how web technologies have replaced much of what a decade ago would have been desktop software.

Seeing how mobile mirrors the same developments desktop computing has gone through over the last two decades (just a lot faster), there is no reason to believe apps will be spared any more than desktop software has been. The fact that apps are comparatively trivial compared to desktop software just makes this all the more likely, not to mention the substantial financial interests supporting this goal.

Nobody in the software industry who's got at least one eye on the future doubts web technologies will eventually replace apps. The only question is when.

Real time applications, like games, are the time honored exceptions.

 

[a5cent]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Guys make a poll if you want to see what is the general opinion.

At this point it's been clearly established that there is an app gap. A poll just isn't necessary.

There have been too many good contributions in this thread, pointing out exactly what those gaps are. Be it a quality gap, feature gap, a perception gap (WP not mentioned when an app is advertised, even when one exists) or an availability gap. All those gaps exist and there are a gazillion examples for each. There is no debating this. It's just fact.

A far more interesting question than whether a gap exists is: do you care. Some do. Some don't. I don't, but I completely understand those that do.

 

[vEEP pEEP]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

It's not just the App Gap. Personally, I would prefer an official version over 3rd party version.

BUT

I think WP suffers from lack of regular updates of their apps as well.

For the most part - they have all the apps I need. Hoping W10 makes it more attractive to app makers!

Mr. V

I feel like the main reason for most people to not get WP or switchto another OS is the absence of applications and I understand it. I myself am frustrated by the absence of (what else than) Snapchat. While all my friends are snapchatting all I can do is look at my screen hoping that one day I will be able to join them. But that's not what I wanted to talk about.

Few days back there was a leak of information about project Astoria and people talking about getting their desired Android applications to work on W10M. I was excited about the news, so I decided to join the crowd and try some Android apps on my own. I did some research before and found out that Snapchat does't work (I might be wrong), so I went to all my friends with android phones and asked about apps I should try on my W10M.

After about an hour of disscussion no one could suggest a reasonable app for me to install. The reason is simple, I already had them. I already had native apps ( like Uber, Instagram, Shazam), unofficial clients (6tag, 6tin, Telescope) or good alternatives.

For sure there is plenty of apps missing (I can't see any Couchsurfing app, etc.) and there are people needing those apps, but I think we have fairly good base.

I think the reason for people thinking we don't have apps is that they heard it somewhere and/or they just don't know. For most of the users I'm sure there is more than plenty of apps.

So, is there really that huge app gap everyone is talking about?

 

[Mindi B]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Not understanding a statement doesn't make it ridiculous.

A LOT of developers expect web technologies to eventually replace apps on mobile, very similar to how web technologies have replaced much of what a decade ago would have been desktop software.

Seeing how mobile mirrors the same developments desktop computing has gone through over the last two decades (just a lot faster), there is no reason to believe apps will be spared any more than desktop software has been. The fact that apps are comparatively trivial compared to desktop software just makes this all the more likely, not to mention the substantial financial interests supporting this goal.

Nobody in the software industry who's got at least one eye on the future doubts web technologies will eventually replace apps. The only question is when.

Real time applications, like games, are the time honored exceptions.

(Apologies, going slightly OT here)

**Thinking**.

I'm not sure how much I buy into it.

For web apps, Java with its massive overheads and awful performance isn't going to fare well. Perhaps HTML5 is the vehicle for it. We need MUCH better web performance and STRICT standardisation for this to really become a reality.

But how far could the eradication of native apps go? Why would we NOT need native apps, is perhaps the better rhetorical question. Or, would that blend into functionality of the device's OS itself?

Your example of games - Quake Live is a good example of a web app in some ways.

Ironically, W10's philosophy of breaking native "tasks" into native apps is probably the best way to go, the rest is left for Web. So from that perspective, sure, it works already, albeit in a smaller context.

But a total phase out of the native apps philosophy? THAT.. I'm not sure I can't see happening. There's been talk of it - turning the web into pretty much a pure transport layer... sure it can be done, but how practical will it be?

Is the world ready for a completely remote experience? Storage has been remote (i.e. cloud), now commands and tasks, if web apps do really take off, are set to become totally remote.

Our local device is literally set to be a remote hands on device. How practical is this? I guess we'll find out in a few years time...

 

[chmun77]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

It's not just the App Gap. Personally, I would prefer an official version over 3rd party version.

BUT

I think WP suffers from lack of regular updates of their apps as well.

For the most part - they have all the apps I need. Hoping W10 makes it more attractive to app makers!

Mr. V

Well, lack of updates from official apps are considered as app gaps in our context. That IS a gap. And such gap cannot be filled just by Microsoft alone.

 

[oussama ait]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

The problem isn't with the app gap, its with the way the apps work there sa lot of limitations in windows phone that prevent an app to do the same it does on android

 

[chmun77]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Honestly, the way things operate now are extremely inefficient. If companies had any foresight, the would stop the insanity of having to develop for multiple platforms and push web technologies. It's a waste of company resources to have to employ IOS and Android developers. Once responsive web sites start becoming more light weight and efficient, we can stop all of the app nonsense. In reality, apps only make sense for video games. Microsoft were idiots to focus on a consumer oriented phone. You know what makes money in software, business applications. There's a reason companies pay $1500+/year/user for CRM or $1 million/year in maintenance for SAP. Apps for consumers are made to either waste time or get you to spend money. Very few phone/tablet apps are used to make decisions which drive revenue. Apps aren't built for productivity. Microsoft's culture was organized around productivity software. Asking them to connect with consumers was an exercise in futility.

"Once responsive web sites start becoming more light weight and efficient, we can stop all of the app nonsense."

Tell this to Windows Central. Loading their mobile web site is so annoying as compared to the WP Central app. Regardless of I'm viewing the site on Android, or Windows Phone, the Windows Central site is so cluttered and slow on the mobile browser.

 

[a5cent]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

But a total phase out of the native apps philosophy? THAT.. I'm not sure I can't see happening. There's been talk of it - turning the web into pretty much a pure transport layer... sure it can be done, but how practical will it be?

Is the world ready for a completely remote experience? Storage has been remote (i.e. cloud), now commands and tasks, if web apps do really take off, are set to become totally remote.

Our local device is literally set to be a remote hands on device. How practical is this? I guess we'll find out in a few years time...

Those are reasonable issues you raise.

The assumptions I'd dispute are that the technologies underlying the web, over the next decade, will remain exactly as they are today (what will HTML6 enable?) and that anything running on the web will remain an entirely remote experience. The later is already not true today, which is why clearing your local cache is often a step towards fixing problems. The browser downloads and caches parts of web apps, just like the store downloads parts of native apps.

In the web's earlier days (which is exactly where mobile is), something like google maps was technically impossible. AJAX wasn't even a concept, and web forms were the only means of interactivity. All the advances made since then were driven by developers wanting to leverage the browser to do more, so as to deliver more interactive content without having to target every platform natively and individually. Nothing about that has changed.

On mobile we're just still in the web form days. We don't yet have the technology to replace mobile apps with web based solutions without compromising the experience. Responsive web design doesn't change that in the slightest. But those technologies will come.

 

[RaRa85]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Well it really doesn't matter what you guys think the future technologies will be or how Web will replace apps if Windows 10 Mobile doesn't do well enough to last until that theoretical time. When it is out of technical preview and officially released it will have to succeed or the platform we know and love will not exist in the way it does. Not sure if Microsoft has some last resort plan to continue on with launchers or something else but it needs to succeed especially when most of WP unique services are already on competing platforms. I can switch to iOS and not miss a beat as far as Microsoft services go and now even Cortana exists although not as integrated as on WP.

Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk

 

[k12000lt]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Here is another joke to finish.... Many times you open a picture or a video to share, but wait, you cant do it from that place... the app you want to share it is missing from the menu. You have to exit, go another route to do the worlds most simple and basic thing. On a new OS this would be acceptable, but not after 5 years...

This exactly. It's not just app gap and quality of available apps that makes users move away for WP. Despite so many patches, updates and fixes, I do not see MS is successful in resolving such simple issues with the OS.

I browse my music to see and share one single song but ohh...I forgot to turn bluetooth on and pair the devices first..damn I have to it all over again.
I downloaded a pdf attachment, read it in adobe reader. Now I have two option, read it again or delete it from within acrobat reader. I can not see it, share it, email it from within the OS or otherwise.
I received an audio file in whatsapp. Now I can download it and listen it only through whatsapp. I can not delete it, search it in device to listen again or re-share it. It will be there in the device though, just inaccessible. If I have to listen to it again, I have to scroll back hundreds of messages to see the audio and open it in whatsapp.
It's own calender can not be manages from within the device. You need to open it in a web browser to fully manage. Even then it's so broken.

These are just a few of the frustration. I'm using Asus Zenfone 2 now, my first ever android after all those years with Symbian and then WP. I now feel like I can just get most of the OS in just a few clicks. It's the same feeling I had with Symbian 3 except a faster, fluid and polished experience. It does not feel lagging at any point like typical android, much cheaper. Photos are poorer than my L925 but it's not just photos that I do in whole day. Smartphone should be a smart phone first. Then comes camera. No matter how great it's camera is. Make just a camera otherwise and not phone.

I can understand the frustrations of al those loyal users above who tried defending WP form their friends. I was at the same position once. Not anymore.

I had hopes with W10, but after I installed it on my only touch enabled laptop (Lenovo Flex 14-2), it broke the good working handwriting recognition. That was the only thing which I wanted and heard that it's so much improved in W10.

 

[c0wb0ycliche]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Just because much of the function of native apps is possible in web apps (or will be at some point) that doesn't mean that native apps will be phased out - it doesn't make it practical.

If you are the dev behind the Snapchat app, what benefit to do you have making it a browser based app rather than native? The tiny percent of users who aren't using Android or iPhone can use it? That hasn't really seemed to be a motivation.

If anything, it has been going the opposite direction - on mobile devices we are moving away from the web (think about how the iPhone launched with only web based apps) to an app-centric model. Think about your own browser usage on your phone: maybe this is just me, but I really only use the browser when I'm looking something up that is on a site I don't usually look (e.g. video game stuff on forums, reading a news article someone linked to, etc.)

The rest of the time, it is all in apps. I look at Facebook in the app, I read news in Feedly (or the individual news apps like The Atlantic, the Economist) I watch videos in the YouTube app, I chat with my friends in Hangouts and GroupMe, and so on. Now I picked these examples because they are possible via the browser - but that just isn't the paradigm.

In 2005? If you were a business, you had a website.

In 2015? If you are a business, you have an app.

That is just the world of tech today.

The problem with Windows Phone in a nutshell is this:

In the app-centric model of today, using Windows Phone excludes you from connecting to countless companies, services and connected products - it limits your choices (when you can even make them) of which of those you use daily.

I have already given examples (cable companies, smart home devices, newer services like Airbnb) so I won't beat the dead horse, but I think this is the breaking point.

I will give one other example of how this is relevant. Think about the main Google and Microsoft services.

You CAN use Gmail/Drive/etc., on Windows Phone, via mostly the web apps and the native mail client. But it is horrible, and in no way compares to the native apps on Android and iOS. But if you don't want to use them, you can use Microsoft's services - including Bing, Outlook, etc., - and you can use them in ways which are (at least right now) almost impossible to do via web (like Bing's answer to Now on Tap that is out on Android right now.) You have a choice on iOS and Android, and the lack of that choice on Windows Phone is why it is, sorry, doomed.

 

[mikepalma]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

To answer OP:

Yes

 

[lparsons21]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Here's another gap. A cross-platform money app. For instance, Moneydance is a well respected financial manager application. It is available on Windows, Linux (yes even Linux!), Android and iOS. There is an older thread on their support forums asking about bringing it to Windows Phone. Their answer is that it isn't financially viable because of the small WP market share. And unfortunately that is the position of all too many developers.

That's not going to change until/unless MS figures out what it takes to make the WP much more popular. And while I personally would like to see that happen, I don't see anything yet that makes me think it will.

 

[esackbauer]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

I decided to leave Windows Phone after almost 5 years and go to Android with my next phones for me and wife. I take data protection seriously (running own mailserver and Owncloud), and so I won't tolerate apps with an abundance of usage rights. The only possibility to have a decent control over this and use tools like XMPP is Android, best with ROMs like Cyanogenmod or at least Android M.

 

[joeonsunset]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

That's true but there is also the quality and freshness of the apps to consider. The Amazon main app on WP hasn't been updated in forever and is barely more than a web wrapper, whereas the Android Amazon app has Amazon Flow. (I didn't even know what that was until my 'droid friend whipped out her phone a store the other day. My mind was blown... Heck I can't even scan a QR code from the search button on WP anymore.)

Amazon has recently updated Audible, but, it's still in beta and be very careful when switching audio outputs, skipping tracks with the volume control, or exiting the app.

Etc.

 

[EnemiesInTheEnd]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

The only app I'd be missing if I went to Windows 10 Mobile is a Chase app and with Windows 10 being a universal OS of sorts, that may end up coming back to Windows Mobile anyway.

 

[RaRa85]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

The only app I'd be missing if I went to Windows 10 Mobile is a Chase app and with Windows 10 being a universal OS of sorts, that may end up coming back to Windows Mobile anyway.

Yeah there's only a few apps I'm missing as well as I'm not too hard too please. But for photographers WP is missing just about every single remote shutter app that would allow you to control your camera direct from the phone. And the Comcast apps are gold in the Android Play Store. I can see the Comcast apps coming over after Windows 10 Mobile becomes official but I feel like the photography apps like Sony's Play Memories are completely overlooked because of a lack of awareness.

 

[Roderick Aspiras]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

I think this is very subjective. Like you I don't have that issue of app gap because I choose to ignore apps that are not in WP like banking apps since I can live without those. However, people have different wants and needs and for some they simply cannot live without snapchat or banking apps so there is a real app gap situation. You can clearly see this in every ads - you see available in Apple Store and Google Play but never in WP. We can only hope that W10 address that along with this project Astoria thing. If you try to expand this, it gets worse since for example you go to China I don't think the Chinese apps localized there are going to be available in Windows Mobile/Windows Phone same thing in Korea and other parts of the world. So Windows Mobile has a long way to go - like iOS and Android has been to Mount Everest and back and Windows Mobile is just starting its climb.

 

[Cosmin Reti]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

Well i see it this way.
A lot of developers of free great content make money from other apps wich they sell on the store. Microsoft ecosystem already offers: best mail client, best office apps, best calendar... task... etc app, offers good reliable network connections, integrations bla bla, one of the best free cloud (onedrive) and most of all doesn't alow for data mining so much. Nobody asked why there are no Google Apps on windows mobile devices, phones and tablets, but there are on PC where they can track the hell out of everything you do on your own computer. As i see it for many large developers there are no money to make on Windows mobile platform so why would they bother bringing they good free stuff on it ?

 

[a5cent]

re: Is there really an app gap on WP?

If you are the dev behind the Snapchat app, what benefit to do you have making it a browser based app rather than native? The tiny percent of users who aren't using Android or iPhone can use it? That hasn't really seemed to be a motivation.

I disagree with every point you've raised. I don't think it's worth debating though, not to mention off topic, so I'll just answer your one question because I falsely assumed that would be obvious:

For Snapchat, such a hypothetical OS neutral web app would have absolutely nothing to do with supporting users who aren't on Android or iOS. Snapchat currently pays for development of both their iOS and Android apps. Leveraging future web based technologies (i.e. not necessarily browser based) would allow Snapchat to replace those two native apps with one single web app, thereby significantly reducing their development and support costs. For the overwhelming majority of businesses, reducing operating costs are a very powerful motivator. Furthermore, companies will still want/need a traditional web portal. Having all B2C portals employing the same technologies, and having them maintained by the same group of developers further reduces costs, while potentially also improving quality and consistency. That proposition will be almost impossible for any CTO to resist. There are quite a few more arguments to be made for this approach, but I think these two arguments alone are already more than enough...

Anybody who thinks MS' universal apps strategy is an interesting or worthwhile idea should be blown away by this approach, because in contrast to MS Windows-Only approach, this one truly is universal (as always, this excludes real time software such as some games).

Finally, the exact same argument you are making now could also have been made 15 years ago. Why did any company even attempt to make web based applications, when there was no relevant market worth supporting outside of Windows? Well, web apps happened anyway... native mobile apps will get the same competition, for many of the same reasons... eventually...

Well it really doesn't matter what you guys think the future technologies will be or how Web will replace apps if Windows 10 Mobile doesn't do well enough to last until that theoretical time. When it is out of technical preview and officially released it will have to succeed or the platform we know and love will not exist in the way it does.

I'd agree with your point if I also thought W10M was in the situation you think it's in.

I suspect you view W10M as being MS' last ditch effort, with its popularity amongst consumers hanging from a thread which is about to snap, which if it does, will signal the end of MS' mobile OS. That would make for a great tech-movie cliff hanger, but I don't see it that way at all.

I think that thread has already snapped. W10M is already no longer the OS we knew. Whether we still love it is a matter of personal preference. Most just haven't realized it yet. Most of us still view WM as participating in a three way race for smartphone market share, but as far as I'm concerned, MS really was not kidding when they said they no longer see WM as competing with iOS and Android. MS are still competing in the overall mobile landscape, but specifically the smartphone battle is over and lost. W10M is primarily about adapting to the consequences of that lost battle, more than it's about continuing that battle.

However, having lost that battle doesn't necessarily mean WM is going away. WM will stick around as a vehicle for innovation in the run up to whatever comes after the mobile revolution. Maybe MS will eventually come up with something that allows them to revisit the smartphone battle, but for now, it's over.

In the mean time, I fully expect MS to be a significant force in pushing for those technical capabilities enabling OS neutral mobile apps. For reasons partly mentioned at the top of this post, I also think that would have the best chance of actually closing the app gap.