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  1. L Beezy's Avatar
    Eventually WP will gain more ground in the smartphone battle.
    Last edited by L Beezy; 08-07-2014 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Double Post
    08-07-2014 05:20 PM
  2. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    Oh I understand why they're not making the phones, I'm just pointing out it would help the platform massively. All the phones listed above are from Nokia and are iterations of the 800. My point has always been, if a potential customer doesn't like that design then they will not buy Windows Phone period. On android if you don't like the Samsung design you have other choices, you don't have to move away from the platform. I'm not saying WP lacks phones (well that's still debatable), it lacks variety particularly on the high end. I don't get why this is so hard to understand.
    Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk
    08-07-2014 05:29 PM
  3. jleebiker's Avatar
    Well, it's different for everyone. Personally, I'm a specs freak and so are people when it comes to buying computing products. It doesn't matter how stable windows phone is on a lower specs to a customer who has never even used it. What matters to them is that what they are getting with their hard earned money and if it is less for one and more for other in a similar price, most will opt for higher. It's value for money pure and simple IDK why it is so difficult for people to understand.
    I DO understand. You're not understanding what I'm saying. How MUCH of a difference is that 421ppi going to make vs 418ppi? I know you see it as getting value for your money, but it your eye can't perceive the difference in 421 vs 418, who is getting the better value for their device? The person that spent $50 or the person that spent $100? Another example, I buy a car that can go 75mph for $1000. You buy a car that CAN go to 80mph but you are limited to a 75mph speed limit and you spent $10,000. Who got the better value for their money? The person that spent $1000 or the person that spent $10,000?
    Stop looking at the pure raw numbers and look at what is useable.

    And I do get it. Trust me.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-07-2014 05:55 PM
  4. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    People have made a lot of good points. In my opinion, Microsoft can't focus resources on supporting other OEM's until they have a solid Nokia lineup. How can we expect well supported, well designed Windows Phones from HTC and Sony and etc. when Nokia, Microsoft's dominant player, still doesn't have a true high end phone? I love the 1520, and the 930/Icon, but fact of the matter is, the common guy DOES look at numbers. Many of them are just pretending to know what the difference between 2.2 GHz and 2.4 GHz is, or the difference between the 800 and the 801 Snapdragon Qualcomm.
    If Nokia releases high end phones that can compete with any top notch Android device in numbers and beat them in performance(since Microsoft tends to be a tad more efficient than any other OS), they can truly "wow" the consumers.
    If Sony and HTC and Huawei see where Microsoft has gone, how much smaller the app gap is, the numbers of the newest Nokia devices, wouldn't that give them the push they'd need to jump onto the Windows Phone train? Not only that, but put time and effort into making quality phones. I don't doubt the HTC Windows Phones were good, and well built, but I highly doubt they could compete with the design and performance of the One M8.
    Focus on the devices you have and are planning to develop in the near future, and on polishing your OS. With phones that are on the same shelf as the One M8, the G3, and the Galaxy S5, those headlines that were previously talking about the shortcomings of Windows may start talking about the comeback. My opinion, correct me if I'm wrong.
    DoctorSaline likes this.
    08-07-2014 06:11 PM
  5. DoctorSaline's Avatar
    I DO understand. You're not understanding what I'm saying. How MUCH of a difference is that 421ppi going to make vs 418ppi? I know you see it as getting value for your money, but it your eye can't perceive the difference in 421 vs 418, who is getting the better value for their device? The person that spent $50 or the person that spent $100? Another example, I buy a car that can go 75mph for $1000. You buy a car that CAN go to 80mph but you are limited to a 75mph speed limit and you spent $10,000. Who got the better value for their money? The person that spent $1000 or the person that spent $10,000?
    Stop looking at the pure raw numbers and look at what is useable.

    And I do get it. Trust me.
    I think we just had a misunderstanding. When you compare between difference price points then yes budget handsets will always have more value for money than over flagships even more so on WP OS. But when I mentioned 64bit hardware, I meant to talk about comparison at flagship level. Yes, it maybe irrelevant now but it won't be in future. There will be software that maybe specific for 64bit and so on.
    Now, you tell me if you are in a market to buy a handset. And S6, One 2016, G4, Z5/6 have SD810 while 940, 1030, 1530 all have SD805 and they are all priced at $300 with contract or $700 unlocked. Will you prefer SD805 touting WP flagships over others because 64bit is practically irrelevant? You might but most people don't that's why it isn't a good business strategy to release year old hardware at high price despite the fact that greater number may not practically be better.
    IMO WP need an All-In flagships to Wow/Dwarf Android/Iphone flagships next year.
    Last edited by DoctorSaline; 08-07-2014 at 06:32 PM.
    Beijendorf likes this.
    08-07-2014 06:12 PM
  6. fatclue_98's Avatar
    To people that use Android or iOS, there will be a gap if they switch to Windows Phone. I know that there is no convincing you, but oh well.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Did you ignore my last sentence or do you just feel like taking pot shots at every post I write?
    tgp likes this.
    08-07-2014 06:22 PM
  7. ScottGeek's Avatar
    Oh my God, why is it so hard to understand?
    Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk
    Because not everyone agrees with your Opinion? Not a slam... just an observation.

    OEM's like Nokia, Samsung, HTC, even Apple get brand reputation... this is really the Magic as to why Apple can continue to sell basically the same thing over and over * Millions of devices. It means something to people to have an iPhone in their pocket... Not really a big mystery there.

    Samsung and to a lesser degree HTC.... powerful brands for Android. If these OEM's were to apply say 75% of the effort they do with Android towards WP devices? Would this effect Market share for WP? Of course it would.... to what degree? If lots of people who currently use/suffer in their opinion with "Galaxy" devices found a comparable WP device would they try it? Of course they would.... But how would Samsung balance such an effort?

    Diversity in hardware tends to drive up OS usage/acceptance... the obvious proof of that is the PC (or the Windows OS) vs anything Apple in a PC. Who owns the majority of that market? ...For last 30 years? Now this is not always what happens... examples... iPhone/iPad... Xbox, PS3, etc. What's the difference with those... a technology Niche that grew into a market brand.

    Now.... after that deep dive... would Diversity of hardware move WP out of the distant 3rd place? Well, it certainly couldn't hurt. The rub is convincing players like Samsung and HTC that diversifying their hardware is a good move to help battle against Apple vs reducing their Android market share. Yeap, that's the struggle here... You mostly see this with Samsung with their efforts of moving outside the Android box... it's a struggle for Samsung (their Watch device is an example of this as they headed down the road away from Android only to be brought back into the fold with Google Watch).

    Anyway, more choices of OEM's never hurts, unless of course you're an Apple person

    ~ScottGeek.
    Last edited by ScottGeek; 08-08-2014 at 09:24 AM.
    fatclue_98 likes this.
    08-07-2014 06:33 PM
  8. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    I'm not expecting everyone to agree to everything I say, certainly not. But when my point is there is a lack of devices outside Lumias and the reply is a list of Nokia phones you can see where I'm coming from.
    Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk
    csiguy1 and hidayat225 like this.
    08-07-2014 06:37 PM
  9. evilrob's Avatar
    the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool
    Cute. x
    08-07-2014 06:50 PM
  10. evilrob's Avatar
    They also need to get Sony on board and HTC committed beyond the HTC One W8. Great hardware sells and great sales attract developers. It's up to Microsoft to sell that message to other OEMs.
    I totally agree with this. I flirted briefly with the idea of getting an Xperia Z2 because I loved the look and feel - particularly the glass front and back and metal chassis, waterproofness, coupled with a not-s**t camera like the M8/potentially W8.

    Then I remembered I f**king hate Android.
    Tahiti Bob likes this.
    08-07-2014 06:53 PM
  11. trekgraham's Avatar
    Windows Phone has much better variety than IOS, heck even Nokia has more variety than Apple.
    08-07-2014 06:56 PM
  12. evilrob's Avatar
    Some will blame the employees in the [...] phone shops but really can you blame them? On one end you could present your customer with 4-5 state of the art phones or on the other end you could convince them to go with that Nokia phone that's mostly the same as that other one but takes better pictures unless they want that old HTC/Samsung phone that may or may not be still supported. What would you do?
    When I bought my 930 a few days after it was released, I strolled into Phones4U and was met with the usual, "How can I help you today, sir?"

    "I'd like to buy a Nokia Lumia 930 in White, please" I replied. (salient information you may or may not be aware of: the Nokia Lumia 930 in White is a Phones4U exclusive here in the UK)

    "Uhh, I don't think there is a 930 is there?"

    "Yes, there is - it's over there" - whilst pointing to the huge display with freestanding cardboard cutout of the aforementioned handset

    "Oh," he says, disparagingly, "well if that's what you want... walk this way then."

    He then proceeded to show me his Galaxy S5, Galaxy Gear 2 and tell me how amazing the whole setup was, demoing Google Now etc. and he didn't know about the 'early bird' launch offer with:

    1 x DC-50 portable wireless charging plate
    1 x MD-12 portable wireless bluetooth speaker / speakerphone accessory
    1 x WS-2 treasure tag
    1 x 20 Microsoft Store credit

    I had to prompt him for the voucher.

    Was pretty poor all in all.
    08-07-2014 07:08 PM
  13. Tahiti Bob's Avatar
    Windows Phone has much better variety than IOS, heck even Nokia has more variety than Apple.

    Not the point.
    08-07-2014 07:10 PM
  14. rodan01's Avatar
    I totally agree with this. I flirted briefly with the idea of getting an Xperia Z2 because I loved the look and feel - particularly the glass front and back and metal chassis, waterproofness, coupled with a not-s**t camera like the M8/potentially W8.

    Then I remembered I f**king hate Android.
    The sales of the xperia z2 are insignificant, and that's an Android phone. Sales of an xperia z2 running WP would be even more insignificant. The effect in the WP would be close to zero and Sony would lose a lot of money convincing carriers to stock this phone just to sell few units.

    The HTC One will be a good example of this problem, probably sales will be really low, few carriers will stock the phone, and Microsoft will lose money, because surely they're paying HTC to build this phone.
    08-07-2014 07:23 PM
  15. fatclue_98's Avatar
    You don't get the point. The point is WP lacks variety, it's not about having the specs to run the OS but about having a variety of devices. Again, if you don't like the Lumia design, what are you left with? The Ativ S and 8X are old now and were never top of the line handsets to start with (and the 8X was too similar to Lumias anyway). The HTC One W8 is exactly what Windows Phone needs, top of the line hardware that is different. An Xperia, Galaxy, G3 running WP8.1 would be nothing but great new for the platform.
    Excuse me but the Ativ has more features (hardware) than most high-end Lumias. Bigger screen, external storage, removable battery, etc. You complain about Lumias being the same basic design language but it's ok, Apple and Samsung sell the same phones over and over. You then say a customer can be shown 4-5 top end phones that are old and may or may not be supported or a Lumia that takes better pictures.

    I'd love to see your point but you don't make a cohesive one. Judging from other posts on this thread, I'm not alone.
    08-07-2014 07:25 PM
  16. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    As people have pointed out above, part of Microsoft's problem is service in retail stores. Everywhere you go, retailers pull out their shiny new S5's and iPhones.
    Of course this isn't always the case, last time I went to an AT&T I asked the girl attending me to take me to their Windows selection and she immediately brought me to the 1520 telling me how cool she thought it was even though she knew next to nothing about it. Anyways...
    Even Verizon, owned by Microsoft, don't provide consistent support of Windows Phones. It's a problem and its solution could really help Microsoft.
    I apologize for how badly organized and written this is. I'm tired and the typing is lagging. Took me fifteen minutes to write this stupid thing. Took me three tries as well. This website lags so bad sometimes and it pisses me off because it's the only one. Again I apologize having to reload this page and hoping my stuff auto-saved three times really annoyed me.
    08-07-2014 08:20 PM
  17. bigmoneymike's Avatar
    You can buy the Moto G on prepaid for $69 dollars.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    For Verizon... The retail price for the Moto G is 8GB 3G $179.99, 16GB 3G $199.99, 8GB LTE $219.99 and so on.
    08-07-2014 08:26 PM
  18. bigmoneymike's Avatar
    Moto G with a higher resolution screen performs as good if not better than the 635. I know, I have both.

    Currently the new 4G Moto G is 10 more expensive than the 635 in the UK and for a 720p screen, 1GB RAM and a front facing camera you'd be daft not to choose that over a 635.

    (EDIT: And the Moto G has a camera flash too)!
    Yes, the Moto G is the better phone. I'm not sure about european pricing, but the Moto G is is much more expensive then the 635 here in the states. Unless you buy the Verizon version of the phone.
    Last edited by bigmoneymike; 08-07-2014 at 08:43 PM.
    08-07-2014 08:30 PM
  19. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    Honestly, you can't quite put the Moto G in the same class as the 635. The Moto G isn't quite mid-range, but it is far above the Nokia Lumia 635. I do not think it is fair to compare the two phones. I believe that the Lumia 730, when it does come out, will be the only phone worthy of taking the Moto G head on. At least, that's what I think.
    08-07-2014 08:37 PM
  20. bigmoneymike's Avatar
    How do you figure? I don't know what the ratio of high end/low end is for each OS, but Android outsold WP 30:1 last quarter. Previously it had been 20:1.Say Android sales are half low end, and WP is 100% low end. That's still a 15:1 margin. I wouldn't call that "creating demand", at least not a very big demand.
    Oh, I agree that Android outsells Windows Phone. I'm not saying that. Google has a ton of OEMs. However, there is demand for the lower end Lumia phones. We talk about having a 3% market share. That's millions of phones. I would bet that the majority of these devices are the low end 520/521/525/630/635 type devices. Now, Google dominates the smart phone market because they gave away the license to Android early on and every electronics company on earth was able to compete with the Apple directly on the hardware side. Exactly how Microsoft dominated the PC OS business in the 90s. That doesn't mean there isn't value or demand for other products, including the low end Lumia devices.
    08-07-2014 08:42 PM
  21. Zachary Boddy's Avatar
    I'm just joking, but where's Bill Gates to kick everyone's **** on a legal level when we need him? Haha, I remember how he brought Microsoft to power and wish Windows Phones could do the same thing, but Android releasing their platform to everyone makes that impossible.
    08-07-2014 08:55 PM
  22. Jazmac's Avatar
    Back in the WP7-Mango days it was pretty obvious why the OS wasn't successful: it was missing many features and the app gap was massive. Nowadays, most of the important features are there (Digital Assistant, Folders, Notification Centre...) and the app gap is lessening. Yes the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool but because many official apps are now available I would say most people could carry a WP as their daily driver. So why don't they? The obvious answer for me is hardware. Sure Nokia has released some great phones over the last 2 years but let's be honest, they are all rehashed designs, improved iterations of the Lumia 800. I can already hear the screams about Apple and Samsung doing the exact same thing but the thing is Apple is in a world of its own so you can't really compare to them. They could sell 50 toothpicks and get away with it. As for Samsung, sure they keep the same design but every new phone comes with its own suit of new (albeit mostly useless) features that look great on TV or at the phone shop. But more importantly, from a user's perspective, if you don't like the Galaxy S5 design you can go with the HTC One, Xperia Z or LG G3. If you don't like the Lumia design, what are you left with? Well, you're left with checking out the android line-up.
    Some will blame the employees in the aforementioned phone shops but really can you blame them?....
    So far, there hasn't been a lot of flexibility from MS where the design is independent design is concerned. LG, HTC, Samsung and the rest could modify as they please from the hardware, to how the OS is presented. Meaning Blinkfeed and Sense. There is no such distinction on WP or even Iphone for that matter.

    But you are absolutely right that it is up to MS to bring those OEM's in. MS will have to unleash its OS into the valley and let OEM's design. But they should still be required to offer those designs up for approval from MS. I think with Cortana and folders, this could be amazing.
    L Beezy likes this.
    08-07-2014 10:50 PM
  23. Elitis's Avatar
    Another perfect example of blindness. Yes, Lumia devices are, currently, the majority of Windows Phones, but this has already started to change. If you haven't noticed, lately, plenty of devices from other OEMs have been releasing. We're currently being flooded with devices, which is exactly what skyrocketed Android past iOS. It'll take a while before we see major OEMs like LG, Sony, and Lenovo as well as before we start seeing more high-end devices, but right now low-end is what we need to build market-share. As market-share rises, we'll gain more developers.

    WP8.1 Devices released or releasing: List of Windows Phone 8.1 devices - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    trekgraham likes this.
    08-07-2014 11:21 PM
  24. EC Translating Services's Avatar
    Back in the WP7-Mango days it was pretty obvious why the OS wasn't successful: it was missing many features and the app gap was massive. Nowadays, most of the important features are there (Digital Assistant, Folders, Notification Centre...) and the app gap is lessening. Yes the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool but because many official apps are now available I would say most people could carry a WP as their daily driver. So why don't they? The obvious answer for me is hardware.
    Your perceptions are based on the market you live in, in my opinion. For me, as an European living in Asia, WP has 3 main issues and hardware has never been one:
    1) OS lacks basic (really basic) functionalities all others have had since Beta (Keyboard input for pinyin Traditional Chinese - Microsoft Community), (Traditional Chinese with Pinyin €“ Feature Suggestions for Windows Phone). Requested since 2010/2011 in some cases. Some functions are being added now (Notification centre, which is not so good, folders in start which are really good to me). WP is lacking in many markets because the OS itself is lacking too much in too many areas. US users and users with lower needs are a happy bunch. For power users it's a no go. (Lacks screen splitting to take notes with a webpage open for example, Bing Translator doesn't work properly while translating apps for global users who travel are not something you add just to add it. Ask iPhone users abroad and see). Worth reminding once again Skype sucks and Office Mobile won't allow you to open password protected files; lack of whatsoever encryption (for non corporate users) and when encryption is there (bitlocker for corporate users) it's still not US/Microsoft proof, but that's a detail i can skip on.
    2) Apps: they keep counting them...nobody cares about how good they are. I have one app voucher still unused in my wallet and one serial for one more ready to use. Simply can't find anything worth buying not even when it's basically paid with the voucher. On Android i bought a series of apps, like Pleco (75 Euros), Docs to go (which does what Office does just much better, linking me to all my cloud services and allowing for password protected files (It opens native Office files), as well as a few others i need to work. Need a good Office app and there isn't any. I need a good Chinese tool for everyday use and there isn't any (i bought YiXue which is said to be one of the best and it's hilarious; tried all the others.....ugly interfaces, wrong translations, developers who don't reply, etc etc.). Searching for apps in the market is a nightmare itself. You get a lot of trash and useless results. Type "CALENDAR" and 100.000 apps pop up...99% of which are not relevant to your search.
    3) Service and slow updates + they basically don't listen to anyone. Service in my area is terrible....I noticed a remarkable difference between the quality of service when i contact US based operators and when, for some reason, i am redirected to non US call centers (India in particular). Taipei has one of the worst service centers EVER. They have no clue what WP does and in front of you they keep playing with their iPhones or Android devices. Updates here are considered "fast" by many. If we consider how much the OS and Apps are lagging behind, they are terribly slow (let's not forget the items in point 1.

    WP is failing because simply doesn't give GLOBAL users what they need to work and what they want. I do business with the phone. If you don't provide me with the tools to fill the slab memory with what i need i have to look elsewhere. There is no time to wait months to see a keyboard input or open password protected files or have encryption enabled after you had over 4 years to fix all this. Other users (a lot) have similar feelings.

    Hardware is snappy, display is the best of them all (on my 1520) and i never had smoothness issues unlike i have on any Android piece of trash i buy in lack of alternatives. I lack apps and OS functions that i need.
    Mach_E likes this.
    08-08-2014 12:41 AM
  25. trainplane's Avatar
    People have made a lot of good points. In my opinion, Microsoft can't focus resources on supporting other OEM's until they have a solid Nokia lineup. How can we expect well supported, well designed Windows Phones from HTC and Sony and etc. when Nokia, Microsoft's dominant player, still doesn't have a true high end phone? I love the 1520, and the 930/Icon, but fact of the matter is, the common guy DOES look at numbers. Many of them are just pretending to know what the difference between 2.2 GHz and 2.4 GHz is, or the difference between the 800 and the 801 Snapdragon Qualcomm.
    If Nokia releases high end phones that can compete with any top notch Android device in numbers and beat them in performance(since Microsoft tends to be a tad more efficient than any other OS), they can truly "wow" the consumers.
    If Sony and HTC and Huawei see where Microsoft has gone, how much smaller the app gap is, the numbers of the newest Nokia devices, wouldn't that give them the push they'd need to jump onto the Windows Phone train? Not only that, but put time and effort into making quality phones. I don't doubt the HTC Windows Phones were good, and well built, but I highly doubt they could compete with the design and performance of the One M8.
    Focus on the devices you have and are planning to develop in the near future, and on polishing your OS. With phones that are on the same shelf as the One M8, the G3, and the Galaxy S5, those headlines that were previously talking about the shortcomings of Windows may start talking about the comeback. My opinion, correct me if I'm wrong.
    I agree with this. It would be nice for Samsung and Sony to make premium Windows Phone, but it is up to Nokia/MS to lead the charge. Samsung, HTC, Sony and others will only make a serious effort to make a high end Windows Phone if they can see that it sells. MS/Nokia needs to show that. It's also hard for these companies to split their attention on two OSes (Android and WP) but hopefully more will follow HTC's lead with the W8--basically the Android version. Much less R&D than developing a dedicated WP.

    And for those who seem to think the annual releases are incremental, they sometimes are yes. But don't just look at one thing (800 vs 801). The S5 screen is much better than the S4 even though they are both 1080p, is water resistant, has additional sensors, is faster, esp in games, has a slightly better camera, more battery life. It's a bit here and a bit there--true nothing mind-blowing. But if MS skips years (which have and are doing), they fall behind. Not sure why people seem okay with that with MS. Imagine if one of the car makers skips years, or a TV maker does. They'd be clobbered. It's a cut throat industry.
    Mach_E likes this.
    08-08-2014 12:52 AM
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