Ecosystem isn't Windows Phone's Achilles heel, hardware is

[trekgraham]

Windows Phone has much better variety than IOS, heck even Nokia has more variety than Apple.

 

[evilrob]

Some will blame the employees in the [...] phone shops but really can you blame them? On one end you could present your customer with 4-5 state of the art phones or on the other end you could convince them to go with that Nokia phone that's mostly the same as that other one but takes better pictures unless they want that old HTC/Samsung phone that may or may not be still supported. What would you do?

When I bought my 930 a few days after it was released, I strolled into Phones4U and was met with the usual, "How can I help you today, sir?"

"I'd like to buy a Nokia Lumia 930 in White, please" I replied. (salient information you may or may not be aware of: the Nokia Lumia 930 in White is a Phones4U exclusive here in the UK)

"Uhh, I don't think there is a 930 is there?"

"Yes, there is - it's over there" - whilst pointing to the huge display with freestanding cardboard cutout of the aforementioned handset

"Oh," he says, disparagingly, "well if that's what you want... walk this way then."

He then proceeded to show me his Galaxy S5, Galaxy Gear 2 and tell me how amazing the whole setup was, demoing Google Now etc. and he didn't know about the 'early bird' launch offer with:

1 x DC-50 portable wireless charging plate
1 x MD-12 portable wireless bluetooth speaker / speakerphone accessory
1 x WS-2 treasure tag
1 x ?20 Microsoft Store credit

I had to prompt him for the voucher.

Was pretty poor all in all.

 

[Tahiti Bob]

Windows Phone has much better variety than IOS, heck even Nokia has more variety than Apple.

Not the point.

 

[rodan01]

I totally agree with this. I flirted briefly with the idea of getting an Xperia Z2 because I loved the look and feel - particularly the glass front and back and metal chassis, waterproofness, coupled with a not-s**t camera like the M8/potentially W8.

Then I remembered I f**king hate Android.

The sales of the xperia z2 are insignificant, and that's an Android phone. Sales of an xperia z2 running WP would be even more insignificant. The effect in the WP would be close to zero and Sony would lose a lot of money convincing carriers to stock this phone just to sell few units.

The HTC One will be a good example of this problem, probably sales will be really low, few carriers will stock the phone, and Microsoft will lose money, because surely they're paying HTC to build this phone.

 

[fatclue_98]

You don't get the point. The point is WP lacks variety, it's not about having the specs to run the OS but about having a variety of devices. Again, if you don't like the Lumia design, what are you left with? The Ativ S and 8X are old now and were never top of the line handsets to start with (and the 8X was too similar to Lumias anyway). The HTC One W8 is exactly what Windows Phone needs, top of the line hardware that is different. An Xperia, Galaxy, G3 running WP8.1 would be nothing but great new for the platform.

Excuse me but the Ativ has more features (hardware) than most high-end Lumias. Bigger screen, external storage, removable battery, etc. You complain about Lumias being the same basic design language but it's ok, Apple and Samsung sell the same phones over and over. You then say a customer can be shown 4-5 top end phones that are old and may or may not be supported or a Lumia that takes better pictures.

I'd love to see your point but you don't make a cohesive one. Judging from other posts on this thread, I'm not alone.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

As people have pointed out above, part of Microsoft's problem is service in retail stores. Everywhere you go, retailers pull out their shiny new S5's and iPhones.
Of course this isn't always the case, last time I went to an AT&T I asked the girl attending me to take me to their Windows selection and she immediately brought me to the 1520 telling me how cool she thought it was even though she knew next to nothing about it. Anyways...
Even Verizon, owned by Microsoft, don't provide consistent support of Windows Phones. It's a problem and its solution could really help Microsoft.
I apologize for how badly organized and written this is. I'm tired and the typing is lagging. Took me fifteen minutes to write this stupid thing. Took me three tries as well. This website lags so bad sometimes and it pisses me off because it's the only one. Again I apologize having to reload this page and hoping my stuff auto-saved three times really annoyed me.

 

[bigmoneymike]

You can buy the Moto G on prepaid for $69 dollars.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

For Verizon... The retail price for the Moto G is 8GB 3G $179.99, 16GB 3G $199.99, 8GB LTE $219.99 and so on.

 

[bigmoneymike]

Moto G with a higher resolution screen performs as good if not better than the 635. I know, I have both.

Currently the new 4G Moto G is ?10 more expensive than the 635 in the UK and for a 720p screen, 1GB RAM and a front facing camera you'd be daft not to choose that over a 635.

(EDIT: And the Moto G has a camera flash too)!

Yes, the Moto G is the better phone. I'm not sure about european pricing, but the Moto G is is much more expensive then the 635 here in the states. Unless you buy the Verizon version of the phone.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

Honestly, you can't quite put the Moto G in the same class as the 635. The Moto G isn't quite mid-range, but it is far above the Nokia Lumia 635. I do not think it is fair to compare the two phones. I believe that the Lumia 730, when it does come out, will be the only phone worthy of taking the Moto G head on. At least, that's what I think.

 

[bigmoneymike]

How do you figure? I don't know what the ratio of high end/low end is for each OS, but Android outsold WP 30:1 last quarter. Previously it had been 20:1.Say Android sales are half low end, and WP is 100% low end. That's still a 15:1 margin. I wouldn't call that "creating demand", at least not a very big demand.

Oh, I agree that Android outsells Windows Phone. I'm not saying that. Google has a ton of OEMs. However, there is demand for the lower end Lumia phones. We talk about having a 3% market share. That's millions of phones. I would bet that the majority of these devices are the low end 520/521/525/630/635 type devices. Now, Google dominates the smart phone market because they gave away the license to Android early on and every electronics company on earth was able to compete with the Apple directly on the hardware side. Exactly how Microsoft dominated the PC OS business in the 90s. That doesn't mean there isn't value or demand for other products, including the low end Lumia devices.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

I'm just joking, but where's Bill Gates to kick everyone's **** on a legal level when we need him? Haha, I remember how he brought Microsoft to power and wish Windows Phones could do the same thing, but Android releasing their platform to everyone makes that impossible.

 

[Jazmac]

Back in the WP7-Mango days it was pretty obvious why the OS wasn't successful: it was missing many features and the app gap was massive. Nowadays, most of the important features are there (Digital Assistant, Folders, Notification Centre...) and the app gap is lessening. Yes the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool but because many official apps are now available I would say most people could carry a WP as their daily driver. So why don't they? The obvious answer for me is hardware. Sure Nokia has released some great phones over the last 2 years but let's be honest, they are all rehashed designs, improved iterations of the Lumia 800. I can already hear the screams about Apple and Samsung doing the exact same thing but the thing is Apple is in a world of its own so you can't really compare to them. They could sell ?50 toothpicks and get away with it. As for Samsung, sure they keep the same design but every new phone comes with its own suit of new (albeit mostly useless) features that look great on TV or at the phone shop. But more importantly, from a user's perspective, if you don't like the Galaxy S5 design you can go with the HTC One, Xperia Z or LG G3. If you don't like the Lumia design, what are you left with? Well, you're left with checking out the android line-up.
Some will blame the employees in the aforementioned phone shops but really can you blame them?....

So far, there hasn't been a lot of flexibility from MS where the design is independent design is concerned. LG, HTC, Samsung and the rest could modify as they please from the hardware, to how the OS is presented. Meaning Blinkfeed and Sense. There is no such distinction on WP or even Iphone for that matter.

But you are absolutely right that it is up to MS to bring those OEM's in. MS will have to unleash its OS into the valley and let OEM's design. But they should still be required to offer those designs up for approval from MS. I think with Cortana and folders, this could be amazing.

 

[Elitis]

Another perfect example of blindness. Yes, Lumia devices are, currently, the majority of Windows Phones, but this has already started to change. If you haven't noticed, lately, plenty of devices from other OEMs have been releasing. We're currently being flooded with devices, which is exactly what skyrocketed Android past iOS. It'll take a while before we see major OEMs like LG, Sony, and Lenovo as well as before we start seeing more high-end devices, but right now low-end is what we need to build market-share. As market-share rises, we'll gain more developers.

WP8.1 Devices released or releasing: List of Windows Phone 8.1 devices - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EC Translating Services]

Back in the WP7-Mango days it was pretty obvious why the OS wasn't successful: it was missing many features and the app gap was massive. Nowadays, most of the important features are there (Digital Assistant, Folders, Notification Centre...) and the app gap is lessening. Yes the app gap still exists, anyone denying this is a fool but because many official apps are now available I would say most people could carry a WP as their daily driver. So why don't they? The obvious answer for me is hardware.

Your perceptions are based on the market you live in, in my opinion. For me, as an European living in Asia, WP has 3 main issues and hardware has never been one:
1) OS lacks basic (really basic) functionalities all others have had since Beta (Keyboard input for pinyin Traditional Chinese - Microsoft Community), (Traditional Chinese with Pinyin ?€“ Feature Suggestions for Windows Phone). Requested since 2010/2011 in some cases. Some functions are being added now (Notification centre, which is not so good, folders in start which are really good to me). WP is lacking in many markets because the OS itself is lacking too much in too many areas. US users and users with lower needs are a happy bunch. For power users it's a no go. (Lacks screen splitting to take notes with a webpage open for example, Bing Translator doesn't work properly while translating apps for global users who travel are not something you add just to add it. Ask iPhone users abroad and see). Worth reminding once again Skype sucks and Office Mobile won't allow you to open password protected files; lack of whatsoever encryption (for non corporate users) and when encryption is there (bitlocker for corporate users) it's still not US/Microsoft proof, but that's a detail i can skip on.
2) Apps: they keep counting them...nobody cares about how good they are. I have one app voucher still unused in my wallet and one serial for one more ready to use. Simply can't find anything worth buying not even when it's basically paid with the voucher. On Android i bought a series of apps, like Pleco (75 Euros), Docs to go (which does what Office does just much better, linking me to all my cloud services and allowing for password protected files (It opens native Office files), as well as a few others i need to work. Need a good Office app and there isn't any. I need a good Chinese tool for everyday use and there isn't any (i bought YiXue which is said to be one of the best and it's hilarious; tried all the others.....ugly interfaces, wrong translations, developers who don't reply, etc etc.). Searching for apps in the market is a nightmare itself. You get a lot of trash and useless results. Type "CALENDAR" and 100.000 apps pop up...99% of which are not relevant to your search.
3) Service and slow updates + they basically don't listen to anyone. Service in my area is terrible....I noticed a remarkable difference between the quality of service when i contact US based operators and when, for some reason, i am redirected to non US call centers (India in particular). Taipei has one of the worst service centers EVER. They have no clue what WP does and in front of you they keep playing with their iPhones or Android devices. Updates here are considered "fast" by many. If we consider how much the OS and Apps are lagging behind, they are terribly slow (let's not forget the items in point 1.

WP is failing because simply doesn't give GLOBAL users what they need to work and what they want. I do business with the phone. If you don't provide me with the tools to fill the slab memory with what i need i have to look elsewhere. There is no time to wait months to see a keyboard input or open password protected files or have encryption enabled after you had over 4 years to fix all this. Other users (a lot) have similar feelings.

Hardware is snappy, display is the best of them all (on my 1520) and i never had smoothness issues unlike i have on any Android piece of trash i buy in lack of alternatives. I lack apps and OS functions that i need.

 

[trainplane]

People have made a lot of good points. In my opinion, Microsoft can't focus resources on supporting other OEM's until they have a solid Nokia lineup. How can we expect well supported, well designed Windows Phones from HTC and Sony and etc. when Nokia, Microsoft's dominant player, still doesn't have a true high end phone? I love the 1520, and the 930/Icon, but fact of the matter is, the common guy DOES look at numbers. Many of them are just pretending to know what the difference between 2.2 GHz and 2.4 GHz is, or the difference between the 800 and the 801 Snapdragon Qualcomm.
If Nokia releases high end phones that can compete with any top notch Android device in numbers and beat them in performance(since Microsoft tends to be a tad more efficient than any other OS), they can truly "wow" the consumers.
If Sony and HTC and Huawei see where Microsoft has gone, how much smaller the app gap is, the numbers of the newest Nokia devices, wouldn't that give them the push they'd need to jump onto the Windows Phone train? Not only that, but put time and effort into making quality phones. I don't doubt the HTC Windows Phones were good, and well built, but I highly doubt they could compete with the design and performance of the One M8.
Focus on the devices you have and are planning to develop in the near future, and on polishing your OS. With phones that are on the same shelf as the One M8, the G3, and the Galaxy S5, those headlines that were previously talking about the shortcomings of Windows may start talking about the comeback. My opinion, correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree with this. It would be nice for Samsung and Sony to make premium Windows Phone, but it is up to Nokia/MS to lead the charge. Samsung, HTC, Sony and others will only make a serious effort to make a high end Windows Phone if they can see that it sells. MS/Nokia needs to show that. It's also hard for these companies to split their attention on two OSes (Android and WP) but hopefully more will follow HTC's lead with the W8--basically the Android version. Much less R&D than developing a dedicated WP.

And for those who seem to think the annual releases are incremental, they sometimes are yes. But don't just look at one thing (800 vs 801). The S5 screen is much better than the S4 even though they are both 1080p, is water resistant, has additional sensors, is faster, esp in games, has a slightly better camera, more battery life. It's a bit here and a bit there--true nothing mind-blowing. But if MS skips years (which have and are doing), they fall behind. Not sure why people seem okay with that with MS. Imagine if one of the car makers skips years, or a TV maker does. They'd be clobbered. It's a cut throat industry.

 

[Visa Declined]

That was a well written post, kudos for taking the time to write all of that out.

Its good to remember that the experience we get from our phones isn't the same for all users. As someone who's lived in the U.S. his whole life, I found your post to be really interesting.

 

[colinkiama]

Have you noticed that the 820 is actually the only midranged phone we have. It has the 1gb ram and the same cpu as the 920, 4g, 8mp zeiss camera, amoled diplay. Only the battery and resolution lets it down. But then again 4.3 inches isnt bad. This phone actually competes with the s3 mini but for some reason, they have stopped selling in shops. On amazon it's around ?180. WTF nokia, if they just decreased the price a bit more... Anyway I'm sure microsoft are going to release a 730 which should compete with the moto g but they neec to hurry up with that phone.

lol on the same day I posted this, leaks of the 730 have been released lol

 

[anony_mouse]

Huawei makes terrible handsets, my old Prism II was junk rubbish not worth a dime

Huawei have made serious progress in the last year or two. Try their latest handsets - they are impressive and excellent value for money.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

I agree with this. It would be nice for Samsung and Sony to make premium Windows Phone, but it is up to Nokia/MS to lead the charge. Samsung, HTC, Sony and others will only make a serious effort to make a high end Windows Phone if they can see that it sells. MS/Nokia needs to show that. It's also hard for these companies to split their attention on two OSes (Android and WP) but hopefully more will follow HTC's lead with the W8--basically the Android version. Much less R&D than developing a dedicated WP.

And for those who seem to think the annual releases are incremental, they sometimes are yes. But don't just look at one thing (800 vs 801). The S5 screen is much better than the S4 even though they are both 1080p, is water resistant, has additional sensors, is faster, esp in games, has a slightly better camera, more battery life. It's a bit here and a bit there--true nothing mind-blowing. But if MS skips years (which have and are doing), they fall behind. Not sure why people seem okay with that with MS. Imagine if one of the car makers skips years, or a TV maker does. They'd be clobbered. It's a cut throat industry.

Well said, you pretty much said what I said except without the long winded speech, haha. Microsoft has yet to release a true high-end phone, which is a disappointment. The 1520 is beautiful, and the 930 is great but it isn't quite ready to compete head on with the best of Android and Apple, which is the tragic truth. It'll be great when a new phone comes out from Nokia that competes toe to toe with all the flagship phones, in specs and features. And surpasses them in efficiency and consumer personality.

 

[Zachary Boddy]

Huawei have made good handsets, they're quickly becoming some of the best budget phones around. They've gone from nothing to a comeback, it seems.