Windows 10 Mobile: The Beginning or the End?

[Spectrum90]

I encourage you to read this post How to sign, convert and install Android files for your BlackBerry PlayBook using Windows or Mac | CrackBerry.com on our sister site, Crackberry. It explains how the onus is on each Blackberry user to acquire any Android APK (Android app file) that they wish to run on their Blackberry device, run it through a PC based app converter that requires that THEY have a developer account, put their Blackberry device into Developer's mode, and install the app to run within another app, Android Player.

Microsoft's method is completely different. As the user, you go to the app store, find the app and download it and run it. It works like every other app on your phone, because it is a Windows Store app, with all the rights and permissions of a native Windows app.

...

Did you even read Thurrott's actual announcement of this ( https://www.thurrott.com/windows/wi...d-apps-on-windows-sure-but-how-about-ios-apps ), instead of only his commentary based on the rumors before the actual product was announced?

In your previous post you said that the process takes an Android app and convert it into a native app. That's not the case, this is an Android app running on an Android runtime.

BlackBerry also opened its store for Android apps. With a tool the developer converts the APK into a BAR file and then publish it on BlackBerry World, so the Android developer becomes a BlackBerry developer with a BlackBerry account.
BlackBerry also allowed sideloading, I don't know if Microsoft will too, but I wouldn't be surprised, I read somewhere that sideloading rules will be relaxed in Windows 10.

I guess Thurrott is backtracking because he understood his post was too hysterical and pessimistic, this strategy could have a happy ending too.

 

[jmshub]

I guess Thurrott is backtracking because he understood his post was too hysterical and pessimistic, this strategy could have a happy ending too.

I mostly like Paul. His initial post was based on his best guess, based probably on rumors and any information he was able to squeeze out of contacts within Microsoft. But the actual news was different, and it wasn't backtracking, it was reporting the actual story once it happened.

 

[tgp]

I hope this simplified porting is enough to encourage developers, but I wonder... I'm thinking that maybe the only solution to get the needed apps is to run Android apps directly, with zero effort required by developers. From what I understand, it's already not difficult to port apps to Windows (Phone). As has been pointed out on this thread, the problem with developers is often more politics and/or other technicalities than numbers/market share. Easier porting isn't going to help that very much.

I know that running Android apps didn't propel BlackBerry to where they were hoping, but we don't really know how much it helped. BlackBerry might otherwise be completely dead by now. I don't think it's fair to say "It didn't work for BlackBerry; it wouldn't work for WP."

 

[sinime]

BlackBerry also allowed sideloading, I don't know if Microsoft will too, but I wouldn't be surprised, I read somewhere that sideloading rules will be relaxed in Windows 10.

Yeah, there will be an option in win 10 to enable "developer mode"... Once enabled, the user can side load up to 20 apps on a phone.

 

[Legoboyii]

I hope this simplified porting is enough to encourage developers, but I wonder... I'm thinking that maybe the only solution to get the needed apps is to run Android apps directly, with zero effort required by developers. From what I understand, it's already not difficult to port apps to Windows (Phone). As has been pointed out on this thread, the problem with developers is often more politics and/or other technicalities than numbers/market share. Easier porting isn't going to help that very much.

I know that running Android apps didn't propel BlackBerry to where they were hoping, but we don't really know how much it helped. BlackBerry might otherwise be completely dead by now. I don't think it's fair to say "It didn't work for BlackBerry; it wouldn't work for WP."

Regardless, Microsoft has more weight to throw around and therefore more leeway. Secondly the way they got it all working is safer for the platform as a whole and keeps Windows secured.

 

[ShaneRay]

To Jmshub and Spectrum...

Before this really turns into an argument, both of you are right.

I've just spent the past 45 mins or so reading various sources. And there is conflicting information for all of them. Even Paul Thurrott has two articles (post-keynote) in which one states emulation and the other does not. In one article he basically states that clarification is needed.

I was under the impression that emulation wasn't involved with android, but after researching this morning, I'm unsure.

So, again, it's clear to me now that there's confusion out there among those who witnessed the presentation and MS needs to clear some things up.

 

[tgp]

Regardless, Microsoft has more weight to throw around and therefore more leeway. Secondly the way they got it all working is safer for the platform as a whole and keeps Windows secured.

True, but will it work?

 

[Legoboyii]

To Jmshub and Spectrum...

Before this really turns into an argument, both of you are right.

I've just spent the past 45 mins or so reading various sources. And there is conflicting information for all of them. Even Paul Thurrott has two articles (post-keynote) in which one states emulation and the other does not. In one article he basically states that clarification is needed.

I was under the impression that emulation wasn't involved with android, but after researching this morning, I'm unsure.

So, again, it's clear to me now that there's confusion out there among those who witnessed the presentation and MS needs to clear some things up.

There's no emulation as the apps are running natively on the os. Emulation is like using BlueStacks on a PC and what Blackberry did to run Android apps, an emulator.

 

[ShaneRay]

There's no emulation as the apps are running natively on the os. Emulation is like using BlueStacks on a PC and what Blackberry did to run Android apps, an emulator.

Here's a quote from one of Thurrott's articles after the keynote ( LINK )

For Android developers. Via “Project Astoria,” Windows users will be able to run Android apps on Windows 10 phones, devices and PCs alongside Windows apps. These apps will use an-on device emulator that will be included with Windows 10, but as with iOS apps, they will need to be modified slightly by the developer.

As I said, some sources say emulation (some directly so; others indirectly as an emulation "layer") on both desktop and mobile. Still, others report no emulation. My point is...there's confusion out there right now. So, while I did agree with your statement yesterday, I'm just not so sure today.

Definitely conflicting info out there at the moment.

 

[Spectrum90]

It seems we disagree in the meaning of the word "emulator".

Wikipedia:

"In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system.

Emulation refers to the ability of a computer program in an electronic device to emulate (imitate) another program or device. Many printers, for example, are designed to emulate Hewlett-Packard LaserJet printers because so much software is written for HP printers. If a non-HP printer emulates an HP printer, any software written for a real HP printer will also run in the non-HP printer emulation and produce equivalent printing.

That's exactly what Microsoft and BlackBerry are doing. Emulating Android, its runtime environment, its libraries, the services that the operating system provide to the app, to make Android apps run in WP and BB10.

 

[jmshub]

As I said, some sources say emulation (some directly so; others indirectly as an emulation "layer") on both desktop and mobile. Still, others report no emulation. My point is...there's confusion out there right now. So, while I did agree with your statement yesterday, I'm just not so sure today.

Definitely conflicting info out there at the moment.

I agree. The more I look into it, there are conflicting reports. The article here on WC suggests that it's not just on-device emulation: Microsoft going all out courting iOS and Android developers for Windows 10 | Windows Central . I think the end result is that Microsoft is hoping to allow developers to get their feet wet with Microsoft SDK at their own pace, with the hope of eventually writing full Windows apps.

 

[Legoboyii]

It seems we disagree in the meaning of the word "emulator".

Wikipedia:


That's exactly what Microsoft and BlackBerry are doing. Emulating Android, its runtime environment, its libraries, the services that the operating system provide to the app, to make Android apps run in WP and BB10.

To me an emulator is basically like virtualbox and bluestacks. Converting apps into windows apps with visual studio and necessary coding is different than directly installing and running an app without changing anything (which is emulating). At least in my perspective.

 

[c0wb0ycliche]

Regardless of whatever emulation is/isn't going on (what was that about a subsystem in the keynote?) my takeaway was that devs will be able to take iOS and Android apps, drop them in VS, and easily produce something they can publish in the Windows store. End users will be completely oblivious to this process (e.g. Candy Crush.)

I'm not as concerned with the process. It seems a good solution - better than a separate app store like Amazon or sideloading.

I'm just not convinced devs will do it.

 

[ShaneRay]

This Microsoft video at the bottom of this page shows (at least from MS's point of view) the simplicity they are going for.

http://www.winbeta.org/news/project-astoria-how-easy-it-looks-port-android-apps-windows-10

And, perhaps, the level of emulation (If any) going on isn't important?

Throw in a quote I came across in an article from Mary Jane Foley:

"Some people might call this emulation," said Operating Systems Group President Terry Myerson, in an interview at Build. "But it's really about subsystems (although) there are aspects of emulation in here."


Time will tell.

 

[Spectrum90]

If It's called emulation or something else doesn't matter. The point is that this is no necessarily going to solve the app problem, and on the contrary it could make it worse. This was a desperate measure to save Windows mobile, time will tell if it works.

Android/iOS apps could have bugs, performance problems, take more time to start, or part of the app might not work.
Native development could be abandoned.
WP could become a patchwork non cohesive Android, iOS, WP7/8 and W10 apps, each with different problems.
Even if the process is as simple as pushing a button, some developers won't adopt this solution and will continue ignoring Windows.
People could question why to buy a WP instead of an iPhone or an Android phone if apps run better there.
Microsoft loses control of its platform and has to follow the changes that iOS and Android introduce.

I've been asking for Android apps for months, so I'm happy with this, but I'm not sure if It's going to work. It depends on how well the "alien" apps run and the amount of work needed to make them run well.

 

[ShaneRay]

I agree.

They had no choice and they are doing the right thing. And, perhaps, the only remaining thing that they could do.

We'll just need to wait for the next 1-2 years, I think, to judge the outcome.

 

[tgp]

I hope they refine the app conversion process before release! Both demos failed. The converted iOS app ran fine, but it produced the wrong answer for the simple math problem. The converted Android app wouldn't find its location, and then it totally crashed on the backup device.

 

[Greywolf1967]

There is one thing missed in all of this......Microsoft is not leveraging only it's mobile phone division on this. Now the developer has the option to release for Phone/Tablet and PC.
This means access to more then just the Phone Market.
The bigger question is will the Developer see this?? As right now with both iOS and Android a Dev has twice the work to make a Phone app then go back and recode for tablet.......in many cases they put forth a Phone only app.

What I have taken away from this is One app can break out across the Windows Family of devices in a more natural way.

Will it work still needs to be answered, as we have to wait for Windows 10 to drop it's release and an app hit the Store and open on a Phone a Tablet and a PC.

Just looking at how well The Windows Phone looked as a desktop in it's demo....I think Microsoft has something to offer Dev's in terms of devices and numbers.

If just 1 or 2 notice this and put out an app and it catches....that will be the start of the move. Remember the power of a River can change rock...but a river starts with just a single rain drop.

 

[Greywolf1967]

I hope they refine the app conversion process before release! Both demos failed. The converted iOS app ran fine, but it produced the wrong answer for the simple math problem. The converted Android app wouldn't find its location, and then it totally crashed on the backup device.

The software world is littered with things that glitches or crashes in demo......Apple Maps.....iTunes on a Moto...Windows 98 with USB, however a demo should never be taken as gospel no matter how smooth or buggy it goes.
I am sure Microsoft will iron out the bugs before they release.

 

[Laura Knotek]

The software world is littered with things that glitches or crashes in demo......Apple Maps.....iTunes on a Moto...Windows 98 with USB, however a demo should never be taken as gospel no matter how smooth or buggy it goes.
I am sure Microsoft will iron out the bugs before they release.

https://youtu.be/W1yMYSP-YJs

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