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08-04-2015 11:23 AM
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  1. Geodude074's Avatar
    System Performance - The Surface 3 Review

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    That's pretty awesome performance for a $200 laptop. Rather mediocre performance for a $500 tablet though. Atom x7 is also about 63%-68% performance of Core i3.

    I think I mentioned once that you can find $200 laptops these days with about the same performance of Surface 3. Of course it's not really fair to compare a laptop to a tablet - but if you want a Windows tablet, my guess is you want a light consumption device, so I would ask, what's wrong with $100-$200 Windows tablets like the HP Stream 7 or Dell Venue 8 Pro? They're the perfect tablet form factor, they offer powerful enough performance for light workloads, and they're a fraction of the cost of the Surface 3.
    xandros9 likes this.
    05-04-2015 10:15 AM
  2. hpham72's Avatar
    For me, for the better screen, kickstand, pen technology, I think the premium for the Surface 3 is worth it. I had a Toshiba Encore 2 Write 10 ($399), which I think you should also consider if you're thinking about a Surface 3, but returned it after the Surface 3 was announced. The screen on the Toshiba had washed out colors and the resolution, 1280 x 800 I believe, wasn't great for a 10 inch tablet. I think I'll prefer the 3:2 ratio of the Surface 3. But I do agree that the Atom processor and 2 gb with the Toshiba was good enough for what I needed for a tablet. Plus the Toshiba's pen was very good. But once I added a case with a flip cover stand, it became bulky. I did have to really think about spending the extra dough though. I used the Toshiba a lot in the short time I had it, and I think I'll really appreciate the premium features of the Surface 3.
    05-04-2015 11:52 AM
  3. 3earnhardt3's Avatar
    I have an HP stream 7, Lenovo miix 8, Acer W500, Acer W700 and Acer W3. Prices ranging from $79 to $799. Every one of them has either significant design flaws or drawbacks that allowed them to be more "affordable". A throw away piece of junk like the Stream 11 will never give the same experience as a premium device like the Surface. Is it adequate, sure. Does it have an active digitizer to allow precise handwriting capabilities, or a beautiful and vibrant full HD IPS display for optimal viewing angles, or advance exchange warranty service, NO. Both the HP Stream 11 and the Surface are priced competitively for their build quality and feature set, it is up to the individual consumer to decide the VALUE of such a device.
    05-04-2015 11:55 AM
  4. onkel_axel's Avatar
    the gap bewetten s3 and sp3 i3 is fine
    yes, u can get 200 bucks laptops or chromebooks with i3 power, but the rest of the hardware is cheap stuff and nothing special
    worse display. worse build quality. worse formfactor. worse additional stuff

    im glad its way more powerful than my dell venue pro 8
    05-04-2015 12:25 PM
  5. Geodude074's Avatar
    I have an HP stream 7, Lenovo miix 8, Acer W500, Acer W700 and Acer W3. Prices ranging from $79 to $799. Every one of them has either significant design flaws or drawbacks that allowed them to be more "affordable". A throw away piece of junk like the Stream 11 will never give the same experience as a premium device like the Surface. Is it adequate, sure. Does it have an active digitizer to allow precise handwriting capabilities, or a beautiful and vibrant full HD IPS display for optimal viewing angles, or advance exchange warranty service, NO. Both the HP Stream 11 and the Surface are priced competitively for their build quality and feature set, it is up to the individual consumer to decide the VALUE of such a device.
    So the best feature of the Surface 3 is its premium build quality? Sounds like an argument that an Apple fan would make.
    05-04-2015 03:43 PM
  6. MobileVortex's Avatar
    .... it's an argument an apple fan should make. They do have a premium build quality...

    Also fans of premium car models can say the same thing...
    05-04-2015 03:48 PM
  7. 3earnhardt3's Avatar
    So the best feature of the Surface 3 is its premium build quality? Sounds like an argument that an Apple fan would make.
    I don't wish to offend you, but please read my post before responding, I listed the following reasons for getting a Surface over a Stream 11: active digitizer for precise handwriting capabilities, Beautiful and vibrant full HD IPS display for optimal viewing angles and advance exchange warranty service (they send you a replacement and then you send the defective one back). I didn't even use the words "Build Quality".
    05-04-2015 03:50 PM
  8. Wildo6882's Avatar
    I spent the extra money on the SP3 over a couple of Core M devices because of that "build quality" and those other things that 3earnhardt3 listed. Anandtech also said they still recommended it unless you absolutely had to have the extra power. Guess we're all dumb... Coulda had a bright pink/purple Stream for so much less...
    theefman likes this.
    05-04-2015 09:06 PM
  9. onkel_axel's Avatar
    btw guys. anandtech used the 2gb model for testing

    the 4gb model is probably way faster. maybe 2gb is not capable of dual channel

    3DM Ice Storm Unlimited s Overall 26,5K instead of 22,5K (+18 %), Graphics 29K instead of 26K (+12 %) and Physics 20K instead of 15K (+33 %).
    Bluerain likes this.
    05-05-2015 08:49 AM
  10. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Well 100 laptops and Sub 80 tablets like the WinBook put me out of the repair business for good lol.

    Why would any one want to pay 50 to fix a screen, when they can get a laptop for sub 200 warranty where everything {almost} is covered?

    It's crazy to think how cheap laptops & tablets have gotten and they may get even cheaper as more & more second hand models appear up on ebay.

    I bought the HP Stream 11 for my Aunt at 130 from currys before the price went up, brand new to boot !...

    Phenomenal bargain.

    However I'm concerned as this could fuel a throw away mentality... as opposed to recycling for parts or handing down laptops / tablets.

    In regards to the Surface 3, I was hoping they LTE model would be cheaper however I can understand why it is priced that high.
    05-05-2015 08:59 AM
  11. rory753's Avatar
    I've had the sp2, and now and sp3. I've also had a Lenovo thinkpad tablet 2, dell latitude 10, dell venue 8 pro, asus vivotab note 8, and cared for the vivotab smart 10. the reason I would consider the Surface a premium device is the updates that msft puts out for them feel much more regular then any of those devices, and I can get almost instant in person service for them from a Microsoft store. the MS store will help me with the other tablets, but if it comes to anything warranty related, its back to the manufacturer, and whether they're going to deal with you or not. so yes, I put them as a premium device more for their support of backing their device. and their build quality is really nice compared to other tablets.
    05-05-2015 09:51 AM
  12. HeyCori's Avatar
    It's worth pointing out that while CPU performance is roughly the same as the HP Stream 11, the GPU in the Surface 3 is undoubtedly better. In several tests there's a 1.5x-2x performance gap between the two processors. Even in the DirectX Notebook test, the S3 is doing nearly 1.5x-2x frames per second. So saying it's only as powerful as the HPS11 isn't accurate.

    Then of course there's the build quality issue. As others have pointed out, it's 1080p vs 1366x768. It's the cheap feel of the HPS11 vs the premium feel of the S3. It's 64GB of space vs 32GB. Pen support vs no pen. etc etc... Is that a $300 difference? I guess that depends on you.

    That said, I don't think it's unfair to say that Cherry Trail is still somewhat of a disappointment. I think most people expected a significant performance boost in both CPU and GPU. And this is the high end version of Cherry Trail too, so future Cherry Trail devices aren't likely to be any better. But Intel (essentially) has a monopoly on the x86 tablet market. So if you want a x86 Windows tablet, the S3 isn't a bad choice. As Anandtech puts it,

    The Surface 3 is a great device. The build quality is really at the top level of any OEM out there. The form factor is finally the right one after two previous generations that got it slightly wrong. The weight is lighter than any previous Surface, and just as balanced. Performance of the x7 Atom CPU is great for light tasks, and if you need more than light tasks then this is not the device for you. As a tablet, it is great to use in either orientation, with the portrait mode being especially good now for browsing the web. The kickstand is improved, they keyboard is improved, the base tier steps up to 64 GB of storage, making it actually useful without immediately adding micro SD to the mix.

    With Windows 10 right around the corner, the Surface 3 feels like Microsoft’s best attempt yet at creating a great tablet computer. If you in the market and you want a Windows 8.1 tablet, it would be worth your time to check out the Surface 3.
    Last edited by HeyCori; 05-05-2015 at 11:19 AM.
    Stiv X and Poirots Progeny like this.
    05-05-2015 09:56 AM
  13. Mathias Lindberg's Avatar
    System Performance - The Surface 3 Review

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    That's pretty awesome performance for a $200 laptop. Rather mediocre performance for a $500 tablet though. Atom x7 is also about 63%-68% performance of Core i3.

    I think I mentioned once that you can find $200 laptops these days with about the same performance of Surface 3. Of course it's not really fair to compare a laptop to a tablet - but if you want a Windows tablet, my guess is you want a light consumption device, so I would ask, what's wrong with $100-$200 Windows tablets like the HP Stream 7 or Dell Venue 8 Pro? They're the perfect tablet form factor, they offer powerful enough performance for light workloads, and they're a fraction of the cost of the Surface 3.
    Geekbench gives me a score of 1600 on my Stream 11, while the Surface 3 stands at 3400. If the Surface 3 is only slightly better, I have to say it's a waste of money. The Stream 11 is an amazing quality build. It's truly the MacBook of plastic. It's better than most Nokia Lumia plastic phones I've used. It only lacks in screen quality and performance, and if the Surface 3 isn't that much better, I can't justify the Surface 3 being almost the price of 3x HP Stream 11.
    05-05-2015 05:17 PM
  14. Mathias Lindberg's Avatar
    It's worth pointing out that while CPU performance is roughly the same as the HP Stream 11, the GPU in the Surface 3 is undoubtedly better. In several tests there's a 1.5x-2x performance gap between the two processors. Even in the DirectX Notebook test, the S3 is doing nearly 1.5x-2x frames per second. So saying it's only as powerful as the HPS11 isn't accurate.

    Then of course there's the build quality issue. As others have pointed out, it's 1080p vs 1366x768. It's the cheap feel of the HPS11 vs the premium feel of the S3. It's 64GB of space vs 32GB. Pen support vs no pen. etc etc... Is that a $300 difference? I guess that depends on you.

    That said, I don't think it's unfair to say that Cherry Trail is still somewhat of a disappointment. I think most people expected a significant performance boost in both CPU and GPU. And this is the high end version of Cherry Trail too, so future Cherry Trail devices aren't likely to be any better. But Intel (essentially) has a monopoly on the x86 tablet market. So if you want a x86 Windows tablet, the S3 isn't a bad choice. As Anandtech puts it,
    You need to include the keyboard too if you're going to compare it to a clamshell laptop though, and the Surface 3 is a lot more expensive at release overseas, compared to the similarly priced iPad Air.
    05-05-2015 05:19 PM
  15. TLRtheory's Avatar
    It's worth pointing out that while CPU performance is roughly the same as the HP Stream 11, the GPU in the Surface 3 is undoubtedly better. In several tests there's a 1.5x-2x performance gap between the two processors. Even in the DirectX Notebook test, the S3 is doing nearly 1.5x-2x frames per second. So saying it's only as powerful as the HPS11 isn't accurate.

    Then of course there's the build quality issue. As others have pointed out, it's 1080p vs 1366x768. It's the cheap feel of the HPS11 vs the premium feel of the S3. It's 64GB of space vs 32GB. Pen support vs no pen. etc etc... Is that a $300 difference? I guess that depends on you.

    That said, I don't think it's unfair to say that Cherry Trail is still somewhat of a disappointment. I think most people expected a significant performance boost in both CPU and GPU. And this is the high end version of Cherry Trail too, so future Cherry Trail devices aren't likely to be any better. But Intel (essentially) has a monopoly on the x86 tablet market. So if you want a x86 Windows tablet, the S3 isn't a bad choice. As Anandtech puts it,
    Very necessary response. The most amateurish mistake one can make is assessing *overall* performance based solely on CPU.

    And while the thread was primarily focused on CPU benchmarks, we can't have someone say the jump from $200 to $500 is unjustified without considering all of their differences.

    Even if we were to put aside the obvious higher resolution, the HP Stream 11 does not have a good screen. The viewing angles are very poor and the colorization isn't as accurate. Surface 3 also has dynamic input. Sure typed input is quicker and more legible than written input, but the moment a professor/executive throws a diagram into play, replicating it with the limited graphing options will make people fall behind. Then there's the versatility of being able to dock as a desktop, use casually as a tablet and snap into a keyboard for a laptop experience, better materials put into it's build, better audio output and longer battery.
    05-06-2015 09:54 AM
  16. Geodude074's Avatar
    Wow this thread really went off-tangent. I never meant to outright compare the HP Stream 11 to the Surface 3 lol, and I even stated it's not fair to compare a laptop to a tablet. They're two different devices built for two different purposes. Whether or not those devices succeed in their category though is a different story for both.

    The point of these performance tests were to show that $200 "disposable" laptops these days have about the same CPU performance as $500+ "premium" tablets. Atom x7 is a huge disappointment, and in a device like the Surface 3, it's simply overpriced. GPU performance increases are nice, but how much of a benefit will that be to the average consumer outside of gaming? And how many people use a Windows tablet as their primary gaming device anyways? The benefits of increased GPU performance is a moot point, because the majority of users don't use applications that are heavily GPU dependent - and especially not on a tablet.

    Once Cherry Trail starts being pushed into $200 laptops with their Celeron and Pentium series, that's when consumers everywhere will win. I foresee $200 laptops with Cherry Trail Celeron CPUs in the near future, and it will be great. I foresee $100-$200 Windows tablets with Cherry Trail Atom CPUs, and it will be great.

    For the price, Surface 3 should have been pushed out with Core M.
    05-06-2015 10:16 PM
  17. HeyCori's Avatar
    GPU performance increases are nice, but how much of a benefit will that be to the average consumer outside of gaming? And how many people use a Windows tablet as their primary gaming device anyways? The benefits of increased GPU performance is a moot point, because the majority of users don't use applications that are heavily GPU dependent - and especially not on a tablet.
    O_o

    GPU performance affects nearly every part of the system. Microsoft has a pretty huge writeup on how they leveraged DirectX to improve everyday tasks.

    To quote the opening paragraph,

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2...-graphics.aspx

    Whereas previously, DirectX mainly provided 3-D graphics, we added functionality for what we call “mainstream” graphics. Mainstream uses center on the typical desktop applications most people find themselves using every day, including web browsers, email, calendars, and productivity applications.
    Last edited by HeyCori; 05-07-2015 at 09:23 AM.
    TLRtheory likes this.
    05-06-2015 11:58 PM
  18. Geodude074's Avatar
    O_o

    GPU performance affects nearly every part of the system. Microsoft has a pretty huge writeup on how they leveraged DirectX to improve everyday tasks.

    To quote the opening paragraph,

    Hardware accelerating everything: Windows 8 graphics - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs
    I'd like to see a breakdown of how GPU performance increases performance of every day tasks, because I'm pretty sure the result is, not very much.

    Case in point, I actually have a 10 year old IBM Thinkpad with a Pentium M 750, which is absolutely ancient by today's standards. It has the weakest built in GPU I've ever found, it cannot even stream 1080p video (because 1080p wasn't mainstream yet). But all the every day tasks that you throw at it - web browsers, email, calendars, and productivity applications - it handles just fine, because the CPU's single-threaded performance is actually still decent by today's standards.

    t43-geekbench-windows-8.png
    05-07-2015 01:40 PM
  19. HeyCori's Avatar
    There's a demo video at the end of the article that shows how DirectX/GPU can improve everyday tasks.

    Direct link
    05-07-2015 02:00 PM
  20. theefman's Avatar
    There's always some attempt to suggest Surface tablets are somehow not worth their price when they're released. Practically every thread or article on the SP3 has people moaning that its too expensive. I see this comparison of the S3 and cheaper devices as having the choice between two cars, a Lada and a Ferrari. They both do the same thing essentially but one does it in a lot more style and gives you a lot more for your money. I for one prefer the Ferrari experience over the cheap Lada but if cheap and cheerful is what you want, that's good. For people who enjoy a premium experience, the S3 is the only way to fly.

    PS: I'm enjoying the heck out of mine, feels as responsive as my sold SP3 for practically everything. Cherry Trail is far from a disappointment.
    05-07-2015 02:04 PM
  21. TLRtheory's Avatar
    PS: I'm enjoying the heck out of mine, feels as responsive as my sold SP3 for practically everything. Cherry Trail is far from a disappointment.
    Yep, this happens every single generation. People just don't seem to understand the cost that goes into digitizers, fast memory chips, solid-state storage, high-resolution screens, the trademark kickstand and premium materials.

    And I'd definitely have to agree with the notion it's far from a disappointment. Playing Modern Combat 5 on my Surface 3 was far more solid than I'd have expected after seeing the Venue 8 struggle on the same game.
    James8561, IndyJG and Bluerain like this.
    05-07-2015 03:36 PM
  22. Geodude074's Avatar
    There's always some attempt to suggest Surface tablets are somehow not worth their price when they're released. Practically every thread or article on the SP3 has people moaning that its too expensive. I see this comparison of the S3 and cheaper devices as having the choice between two cars, a Lada and a Ferrari. They both do the same thing essentially but one does it in a lot more style and gives you a lot more for your money. I for one prefer the Ferrari experience over the cheap Lada but if cheap and cheerful is what you want, that's good. For people who enjoy a premium experience, the S3 is the only way to fly.

    PS: I'm enjoying the heck out of mine, feels as responsive as my sold SP3 for practically everything. Cherry Trail is far from a disappointment.
    That's a poor comparison, since in your example the Ferrari and the Lada both make the same HP and both perform about equally. There are $200 laptops everywhere that have the same performance of the Surface 3. Here's one from Dell:

    Inspiron 14 3000 Series Laptop | Dell
    05-08-2015 11:22 AM
  23. Geodude074's Avatar
    Yep, this happens every single generation. People just don't seem to understand the cost that goes into digitizers, fast memory chips, solid-state storage, high-resolution screens, the trademark kickstand and premium materials.

    And I'd definitely have to agree with the notion it's far from a disappointment. Playing Modern Combat 5 on my Surface 3 was far more solid than I'd have expected after seeing the Venue 8 struggle on the same game.
    Fast memory chips? Solid state storage? Both of these don't exist in the Surface 3 lol. Surface 3 has an eMMC drive that's slower than comparable $200 laptops.

    You can find high res screens, once again, in $200 Android tablets these days. You don't have to spend $500 today to get a Full HD screen on a tablet.

    Kickstand increasing the price? That's laughable. $10 cases have kickstands.

    The only thing that would increase the price would be the digitizer, but is it worth $500? I think not.
    05-08-2015 11:25 AM
  24. Geodude074's Avatar
    There's a demo video at the end of the article that shows how DirectX/GPU can improve everyday tasks.

    Direct link
    Not a very good video, since it mainly showcased Windows 8 vs Windows 7.
    05-08-2015 11:26 AM
  25. HeyCori's Avatar
    Not a very good video, since it mainly showcased Windows 8 vs Windows 7.

    ...GPU performance increases are nice, but how much of a benefit will that be to the average consumer outside of gaming?

    ...The benefits of increased GPU performance is a moot point
    I feel a strawman argument coming on. Trying to dismiss the facts because a comparison was made using Windows 7 is a deliberate derailment of the argument at hand. It was in fact you that asked what benefit is the GPU outside of gaming. That whole article I posted is about how Windows 8 uses the GPU to make the entire OS faster. Better GPU = Better performing operating system. Microsoft flat out proved it. Just to be clear, there is no argument here. The articles shows exactly how Windows 8 leverages the GPU to increase system performance. You can disagree if you want but that's on you.
    Last edited by HeyCori; 05-08-2015 at 01:34 PM.
    05-08-2015 11:51 AM
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