Microsoft should release a 12" Surface

[Michael Alan Goff]

Anything that runs a limited-feature operating system (i.e, iOS, Android, WinRT) is handicapped when compared to the capability of a full-feature operation system (i.e., Windows, OSX, Linux, etc.) The point is simply that iOS is not as capable or powerful as full Windows.

If Apple really wanted to take the fight to Surface line, they should have put OSX on it. Then, you would have a fight. They didn't, so the iPad Pro ended up only being a glorified, more expensive iToy...with the option to purchase a stylus (Steve Jobs must love that) and a keyboard cover a la Surface.

More specific things would be nice.

 

[Stiv X]

More specific things would be nice.

You mean like the differences in the capability of an OS that is not much more functional than running apps (like iOS) vs one that the user has complete configurable and administrative control over like full Windows? You mean like the fact that you can install program on Windows, but not on iOS permitting Windows to run both program and apps, while handicapping iOS to only apps? Look, it is widely known that without apps iOS is useless. If there isn't an app for that, it can't do it. Alos, if the app sucks, there is no alternative but to try another app. Its entire strength and weakness falls on apps. Windows was around before apps and can also run apps, but isn't entirely reliant on apps. Programs actually run the IT world.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

> Having administrative control over iPad is easy
> Apps are programs.
> Without apps, all OSs would be useless.
> I repeat, programs are apps. The word app is short for application.

 

[tangledW]

> Having administrative control over iPad is easy
> Apps are programs.
> Without apps, all OSs would be useless.
> I repeat, programs are apps. The word app is short for application.

You know there is a considerable difference between classic programs and what we call apps now.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

You know there is a considerable difference between classic programs and what we call apps now.

For now, and that is a difference that is disappearing as time goes on. Making a pro tablet, given that Apple has a developer community most companies wish they had, is going to accelerate that.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

You know there is a considerable difference between classic programs and what we call apps now.

Yes, the greatest difference is cost: $60 vs. $0.99

There are some very sophisticated iOS "apps" that rival the functionality of full desktop "software" regardless of price... even though the iOS "app" is an order of magnitude cheaper.

For now, and that is a difference that is disappearing as time goes on. Making a pro tablet, given that Apple has a developer community most companies wish they had, is going to accelerate that.

This is why Apple will most likely have greater success getting to that hybrid convergence point than Microsoft.

Microsoft currently has the hardware. That's the easy part. The software is a long haul that may never come to fruition. Apple has the software. That's the hard part. Although they'll take their sweet time on the hardware end (making boatloads of money with each increment), they'll get there... the hard part is done.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

Yes, the greatest difference is cost: $60 vs. $0.99

There are some very sophisticated iOS "apps" that rival the functionality of full desktop "software" regardless of price... even though the iOS "app" is an order of magnitude cheaper.



This is why Apple will most likely have greater success getting to that hybrid convergence point than Microsoft.

Microsoft currently has the hardware. That's the easy part. The software is a long haul that may never come to fruition. Apple has the software. That's the hard part. Although they'll take their sweet time on the hardware end (making boatloads of money with each increment), they'll get there... the hard part is done.

The funny thing is that you're not the only one who thinks Apple might win this one. Paul Thurrott also says that, but for somewhat different reasons.

 

[Tsang Fai]

We all know the limitations of iOS. Alright, be specific to point out some:

• Lack of file system. Don't say that we can store everything on the cloud - this is not realistic. Even with the cloud, we need a PC to do lots of processing and consolidation of files.
• Lack of mouse support, which obviously lowers productivity.
• No USB ports for external accessories and storage. In real life, we need this.
• Lack of productivity apps - even Office Mobile only has very limited functions - not ready for professional needs.

If iOS is so "useful", then why don't MacBook run iOS?

 

[Tsang Fai]

There are some very sophisticated iOS "apps" that rival the functionality of full desktop "software" regardless of price... even though the iOS "app" is an order of magnitude cheaper.

I would like to hear some examples of "very sophisticated iOS apps", which are very cheap...

 

[Tsang Fai]

Microsoft currently has the hardware. That's the easy part. The software is a long haul that may never come to fruition. Apple has the software. That's the hard part. Although they'll take their sweet time on the hardware end (making boatloads of money with each increment), they'll get there... the hard part is done.

No, I don't agree. The real situation is the opposite - Apple has the hardware but their software (iOS & apps) is totally not ready for productivity. Yes, they will sell many iPadPros to those who don't really know what they want.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

I would like to hear some examples of "very sophisticated iOS apps", which are very cheap...

I'm not going to get caught up in a war of semantics. Because whatever app I claim is "very sophisticated" you will reject it.

But I'll give you one and see how you do with that: BossJock Studio $10

 

[Dewg]

No, I don't agree. The real situation is the opposite - Apple has the hardware but their software (iOS & apps) is totally not ready for productivity. Yes, they will sell many iPadPros to those who don't really know what they want.

I think what they're trying to say is that when Apple creates the same converged devices as Microsoft (an iPad with iOS *and* OSX built in), they'll be in a better position than Microsoft and will win the tablet war, as they have best "tablet" apps, and their OSX software library is fairly decent. Microsoft has the better Windows software library, but their "tablet" apps are not as numerous or mature.

However, we've yet to see the effect of Windows 10 Universal apps with the Bridge tool, allowing iOS apps to natively compile for the Windows Store.

 

[Brian282]

ill be the weird one who wants a pro the size of a 3.... I actually enjoy the size of the 3. Better yet Ditch the current processor and stick an i3 in the next surface 4 and leave the i5 and i7 for the pro.... oh and no more 64gig HD...

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

We all know the limitations of iOS. Alright, be specific to point out some:

• Lack of file system. Don't say that we can store everything on the cloud - this is not realistic. Even with the cloud, we need a PC to do lots of processing and consolidation of files.
• Lack of mouse support, which obviously lowers productivity.
• No USB ports for external accessories and storage. In real life, we need this.
• Lack of productivity apps - even Office Mobile only has very limited functions - not ready for professional needs.

If iOS is so "useful", then why don't MacBook run iOS?

IOS has a file system, just not a file explorer.

 

[Tsang Fai]

IOS has a file system, just not a file explorer.

Yeah, you are right. I think the design principle of iOS is to avoid manipulating files. Every app manipulates a separate copy of a "document". Some iOS apps allow reading documents from the cloud but only some of them allow editing documents and save them back to the cloud. I had experience of working with the same document across different apps. The experience was terrible because I needed to create so many duplicate copies among the apps.

 

[Michael Alan Goff]

Yeah, you are right. I think the design principle of iOS is to avoid manipulating files. Every app manipulates a separate copy of a "document". Some iOS apps allow reading documents from the cloud but only some of them allow editing documents and save them back to the cloud. I had experience of working with the same document across different apps. The experience was terrible because I needed to create so many duplicate copies among the apps.

I know what you mean. It's so nice to open up the same file with different programs on Windows. Well, okay, I don't actually know anyone who needs to do that. I most certainly never did. And I can't think of a use case where 95% of people would need to. I'm sure that's a must have feature for somebody, though. I just can't figure out who.

 

[Tsang Fai]

I know what you mean. It's so nice to open up the same file with different programs on Windows. Well, okay, I don't actually know anyone who needs to do that. I most certainly never did. And I can't think of a use case where 95% of people would need to. I'm sure that's a must have feature for somebody, though. I just can't figure out who.

So you are saying that 95% of people never open the file explorer, copy files, renaming files, generating a pdf file and have it emailed to someone.

Okay, you can give up this important feature. You are also giving up productivity. This is your choice but not most people's choice.

The inability to manipulate files is a major drawback of iOS as compared to a desktop OS - this is a well known fact about iOS.

Well, you may use iPad mainly as a content consumption device plus some basic content creation. You cannot manipulate files. Then your use cases would be very limited. At the end you still need to have a PC/Mac to consolidate your files.

Users expect to do everything on a productivity tablet, instead of just basic content creation. I can use my Surface to do all sophisticated tasks, thanks to the ability of manipulating files.

And iPad? What if the app does not support Cloud? I need to email myself a copy of the document, open it with the app, edit it, and email the modified document again. Doing this is very stupid. Maybe you like this. But many people hate this.

There are too many use cases that people need to manipulate files. You should know that very well.

Seems that you don't need a PC while many people still need it. And you described this important feature as something only a minority of people would use. Seems that you are the 5% of efficient people who can work efficiently in such a limited OS (iOS). Many people are not as efficient as you.

There is just no room for debate on iOS against desktop OS (Windows/Mac) as far as file management is concerned. And this is just one of the limitations of iOS as compared to a desktop OS.

 

[Tsang Fai]

I'm not going to get caught up in a war of semantics. Because whatever app I claim is "very sophisticated" you will reject it.

But I'll give you one and see how you do with that: BossJock Studio $10

I won't reject it.

An example doesn't prove anything at all. How about Photoshop, Office, video-editing tools? Are they sophisticated enough in iOS? These software are used by many people. If iOS apps cannot satisfy the need of the majority of people, how can we say iOS has its "software part" ready?

I just know that iOS is full of games and casual apps. Productivity apps as good as desktop ones? No.

 

[WillysJeepMan]

I won't reject it.

An example doesn't prove anything at all. How about Photoshop, Office, video-editing tools? Are they sophisticated enough in iOS? These software are used by many people. If iOS apps cannot satisfy the need of the majority of people, how can we say iOS has its "software part" ready?

I just know that iOS is full of games and casual apps. Productivity apps as good as desktop ones? No.

As I suspected. You wanted examples of sophisticated iOS apps. I provided one. I could provide more. But then you moved the goal posts... from questioning the existence of sophisticated apps to not the right type of sophisticated apps.

The fact is, that "productivity" means different things to different people. What may not be sufficient for you and I to be productive may be perfectly fine for others... sometimes MANY others. I don't use myself as the proof case of what is sufficient for all.

Satisfying the "majority of people"? How do you know what the majority of people need to be productive? Every button, every menu item within the entire MS Office suite? Can people be productive with iWork? Google Docs?

But to bring this back to my original point... if Microsoft had the software of the iOS ecosystem, then they would fully achieve the goal they set out to accomplish with the Surface. A device fully capable of being a great tablet and great notebook. It took many years and many devices to get iOS ecosystem to where it is today. That is a long hard road.

Microsoft is not making any noticeable inroads with developers to produce quality touch-optimized Modern UI apps. That is what tarnishes the Surface user experience. Using desktop apps in desktop mode on a tablet is so 1999/2000.

 

[Tsang Fai]

Microsoft is not making any noticeable inroads with developers to produce quality touch-optimized Modern UI apps. That is what tarnishes the Surface user experience. Using desktop apps in desktop mode on a tablet is so 1999/2000.

First of all, I do not agree that a 10"/12" tablet needs so many apps. You can use an iPhone plus a Windows tablet if Windows Store lacks your favourite apps.

"Using desktop apps in desktop mode on a tablet is so 1999/2000"? This is indeed what many Windows tablet users are doing.

Instead, I think that "doing only tablet things on a tablet" is so 2010 (when iPad 1st gen was announced). It's now 2015 and Microsoft has proved that this limited mindset is so wrong. I guess your mindset is still staying at around 2010.

I would say iOS and Windows Store both lack touch-optimized productivity apps. iOS surely does not have any advantage on that. However, because Windows already has a rich set of desktop programs, the need for touch-optimized apps is relatively less important. This is a problem for iOS more than a problem for Windows

You need to bear in mind we are talking about productivity. So why are you questioning how many people need a productivity device? Well, you may open a new thread to discuss this.

" Can people be productive with iWork? Google Docs?" - For iOS, the answer is no. Apple needs Microsoft Office because people are not satisfied with iWork. And have you ever tried to use Google Docs on iOS? Try it first and you will realize there are so many features not supported. Some people like using Google Docs but they are using PC/Mac, not iPad ...

"How do you know what the majority of people need to be productive" - so you have admitted that iOS does not offer true productivity at all. I never say that so many people need to be productive. But for people looking for a portable device for true productivity, iPad (be it Pro/Air/Mini) is a bad choice.

It's so funny that when we are discussing the best productivity device, you remind us that not many people need to be productive... thank you for your reminder.