10-06-2015 12:18 PM
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  1. 920Walker's Avatar
    It would be nice to see a comparison between manufacturers of device returns, reasons for returns, repeat returns and customer satisfaction rate.
    10-05-2015 03:24 PM
  2. MorganRW's Avatar
    When I upgraded to W10 on my work laptop, I too had problems with networking and other issues. Everything for me was fixed when I reinstalled a clean full install instead of the upgrade. It seems issues inherited from earlier OS versions just get passed along so starting over fresh fixes a lot of ills. Of course you have to reinstall Office and other programs but I found that those applications too ran much better so it really is worth it. Personally I saw the RT Surface as a toy since it was not the full OS. I also saw S1, 2, and 3 as something new and figured they would nail it with the 4th gen. If I were to pull the trigger on a Surface, 4 would be it. As far as those on here touting Apple as the promised land, don't be so fast to jump. I just sat next to a guy at the game yesterday who complained that his shiny new 6s was eating battery and crashing all the time. I also loved hearing an iFan tell me that the iPad Pro is a "game changer". Yes if strapping a keyboard and adding stylus support to an iPad with essentially the same OS as the current iPad/Phone is a game changer then I don't know why MS even bothers with the Surface line. This is tech people. Every platform has it's problems and limitations. I guess I have been lucky as I rarely have had a problem that I or tech support could not fix. For the people who complain that every device they have doesn't work, I have to wonder if they are doing something or changing something they shouldn't be changing. Or adding software or registry cleaners or such that are not necessary and cause more problems than they solve.
    10-05-2015 04:20 PM
  3. kevgallacher's Avatar
    I don't see what all the fuss is about. I have had the SP3 since release and don't have these issues at all.
    There is sometimes a few bugs or what not after an update like WiFi issues but I usually just clear my temp files, clean the registry then restart to fix these, usually sorts it. I have had a few lock ups but restarting it sorts it. The device gets warm during heavy use, especially with games and HD video but nothing I would think of as overheating, the fan noise is probably the worst part. Battery life seems a little weaker since moving to win 10. But I still get a solid 5+ hrs of web browsing, not the 9 hours that MS claim but what device does? The worst thing about Surface Pro's is the keyboard, I have problems connecting it sometimes. The same thing happened with SP1.
    10-05-2015 05:01 PM
  4. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Do less for more $. Really? Because it integrates with Office, is able to split the screen like I am now doing with SP3, and drag and drop between the two windows. Additionally, MS already said they were integrating OneNote with it as well.

    So yeah, whatever, I'll be doing the SAME office type applications on a device that if there are issues, are fixed quickly and painlessly.

    I am not an Apple fan by any means. I use Android for my phone and have this SP3 for work. But as I said, I'm tired of the same BS every single year from MS.

    And your comment is EXACTLY why people are fed up with them. Instead of acting like a clown or going after the company I mentioned, perhaps if everyone else felt the same way, and there are PLENTY that do but are afraid or don't want to say anything, because God forbid we might be wrong about the investment we made into the SP3.

    Tired of the charade. I've got the $ to spend, so I'll spend it on something that just works.
    You know what I'm not going after Microsoft? It's because you're the EXCEPTION. My sister's first and only Surface Pro 3 has had no defects. I've had my 920 almost 3 years, not had a reason to send it in. As for my comments, they're 100% accurate.

    "spending MORE money"

    The Surface Pro 3 and iPad Pro start at the same price. However, the iPad Pro's keyboard is $40 more than the SP3's Type Cover. Also, the SP3 comes with the Surface Pen, but you have to pay another $100 for the Apple Pencil (if you need a Surface Pen separately, it's half that price). So, you're paying an extra $140 for the iPad Pro.

    "an Apple product that does less"

    Of course, your definition of that is incredibly stupid. Your comeback is "I can use Office and two apps." You can resize windows on a SP3 in more than just two ways. You can do 4-way snap on W10, or you can have something other than a 50-50 split if you go with 2 apps. Snapping and resizing on W10 is MUCH more flexible than what iOS does. Oh, and don't forget that you aren't getting anything and everything Office has on iOS without that Office 365 subscription. You can get a non-365 version on Windows (I have 2007, since it works fine), and then you have full Office without needs to pay annually to access it.

    Now, there's more to a computer than Office and two-way multitasking. The SP3 is an x86 device, enjoying all of the benefits of x86 support. You can put Steam games on the SP3, if you're so inclined (granted, you don't want anything too crazy, as it's not built for high-end gaming). You can throw on things like code compilers, if you're into software design. You can get the full versions of things like PhotoShop. You can get access to things like a Control Panel, Task Manager, the full File Explorer, and so on with a SP3.

    Don't forget that with the SP3, you also get a full USB port. You also get a microSD slot. So, you can do things like add storage and use external HDDs. You can use a wired mouse or keyboard. You can get a Logitech multi-device wireless receiver and pair a better mouse and keyboard to the SP3. You can plug straight in to a printer. You can grab a flash drive and throw stuff on it for friends. You can plug in a headset to talk to people in semi-privacy. You can do all kinds of things with a USB port.

    If you're trying to argue that the SP3 CAN'T do more than an iPad Pro, then you should just head over to iMore and ask for a glass of the Kool-Aid there. Disputing what I said shows you're not seriously interested in intelligent discussion or thought, you just want spoon-fed technology and how to do everything.
    FirstWatt likes this.
    10-05-2015 05:19 PM
  5. tgp's Avatar
    If you're trying to argue that the SP3 CAN'T do more than an iPad Pro, then you should just head over to iMore and ask for a glass of the Kool-Aid there.
    I agree with your post for the most part, but the fact that the SP3 CAN do more than the iPad Pro doesn't mean that it will be used in that way.

    My VW Jetta will probably go over 100 MPH, but I've never had it over about 75 MPH. In the same way, anyone I've seen use a Windows tablet didn't use it for more than could be done with an iPad or Android tablet. And, often their experience is not as good because the OS is not designed for touch and a small screen.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    10-05-2015 06:29 PM
  6. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    I agree with your post for the most part, but the fact that the SP3 CAN do more than the iPad Pro doesn't mean that it will be used in that way.

    My VW Jetta will probably go over 100 MPH, but I've never had it over about 75 MPH. In the same way, anyone I've seen use a Windows tablet didn't use it for more than could be done with an iPad or Android tablet. And, often their experience is not as good because the OS is not designed for touch and a small screen.
    Yes, no, maybe.

    For a lot of people, that might be the case. For the majority, it's possible. However, my mom spent the last couple of years on an iPad Mini and ditched her laptop. She recently picked up the Yoga 3 because she needed something functional for doing real work, like typing papers. MAYBE the iPad Pro can fill that need. However, give the insane price of the thing, even banking on it for that is rather silly.

    As for W10 and touch, I think it's decent. It's not PERFECT for touch, but you can easily argue that iOS isn't perfect for non-touch input as well. I haven't had much of a chance to use W10 via touch, but in the time I was upgrading some SP2s to W10 at work, I didn't have any troubles. The only part where it seemed that going with touch might be a rough go is working with something like Excel or PowerPoint. However, that just leads me back to my point about a SP3 over an iPad Pro all over again--I can just throw on the Type Cover and use the trackpad, or I can use the USB port to connect a mouse. With an iPad Pro, that's not an option. You can get by, but I think that an iOS device is going to be slower and a bit more clunky/clumsy for such activities.

    Where W10 isn't elegant for touch, you can go with non-touch input. In iOS, you're rigidly forced into an awkward mix of touch input and a keyboard, and there's nothing you can do, as iOS doesn't give you mouse support (at least, via USB; can it use a Bluetooth mouse?).
    10-05-2015 08:24 PM
  7. Novanglus's Avatar
    I've been a Mac user since my Mac Plus, probably before any of you here were born. I've seen it all come and go. I had the original iPad, the 2, and currently have two Minis. I had an iPhone 4 and 5. When Windows 8 came out, I laughed and laughed at what a terrible piece of crap the kludge of a UI was. Then 8.1 came out, and it got a little better. The 10, and it became apparent to me that MSFT had finally awoken. The company seems focused to me now and their products are improving be big leaps. Because Windows Phone was so far behind, they were essentially giving away Lumias, so when it came time to add a line for my law practice, I got a 920. Pretty nice phone. Lagged the iPhone pretty massively. No apps. Felt like an alpha product. But the came 10 mobile insider. Since then, I dropped my iPhone and bought dual sim 640 as a placeholder for a dual sim 950XL. I like where MSFT is headed. I also bought a Dell Venue 8 Pro when 8.1 was out and hated it. Piece of crap, but with 10, it is like a brand new machine, And it absolutely smokes my two iPad minis. The UI is more responsive and browsing most sites is considerably faster. So, once I started to see how well MSFT was doing at pushing their one OS vision, I come here and read all the whining and moaning about MSFT. I find it downright hysterical. MSFT is becoming the focused company and Apple is the one losing their way. How many OS's now? WatchOS, tvOS, iOS, OS X.... I'd look before you leap, because trust me, as an Apple defector, Apple is doing plenty itself at driving customers away.
    10-05-2015 08:40 PM
  8. tgp's Avatar
    Yes, no, maybe.
    Pretty much the idea I was trying to convey! I know that overall the Surface Pro is more capable, but acknowledge that the capabilities aren't often fully utilized.

    I guess I would kind of look at it like WP fans talk about their phones: they mostly acknowledge that iOS and Android have more capabilities, yet at the same time say that their WPs do as much as they need. It is often the same people arguing opposite directions, depending on which device they're talking about.
    10-05-2015 09:35 PM
  9. Keith Wallace's Avatar
    Pretty much the idea I was trying to convey! I know that overall the Surface Pro is more capable, but acknowledge that the capabilities aren't often fully utilized.

    I guess I would kind of look at it like WP fans talk about their phones: they mostly acknowledge that iOS and Android have more capabilities, yet at the same time say that their WPs do as much as they need. It is often the same people arguing opposite directions, depending on which device they're talking about.
    It's kind of similar, but not quite. The WP limitations are on the developer's end. The iPad's are an architectural limitation that CANNOT be resolved. If Astoria and Islandwood work out on W10M, then the apps will potentially flood the market. The only solution for app shortages on the iPad Pro are to either hope every developer wants to go recode a decade-old application for iOS, or the person has to buy a second device.

    The other difference is price. Windows Phones have typically been cheaper than their iOS alternatives, with maybe the ICON and 1520 as exceptions (and even they might have been $50-100 cheaper than the competing iOS flagships at the time). The iPad Pro pairs its permanent deficiencies with a higher price tag than the more-functional competition. I mean, sure, I don't do high-end gaming on my PC, I rarely fire up the older stuff. I don't do CAD or PhotoShop work, either. However, there's something to be said about having the OPTION to use such things, and that is also true in the WP app deficiency discussion. But, again, there are ways to improve that. The iOS-x86 thing can't be fixed by a port. It requires a total rebuilding of the software. Steam isn't going to be showing up on iOS, but we might see Snapchat on Windows 10 Mobile.
    10-05-2015 10:05 PM
  10. AWD4416's Avatar
    I think there are way too many people expecting too much from the devices they purchase.

    Doing complete OS update with a limited set of compatible hardware is hard (i.e. Apple). Now imagine doing that same upgrade with virtually an infinite number of compatible hardware (i.e. Microsoft). The rule of thumb for OS upgrades has always been and will always be to do a fresh install for best results.

    The problem I see is that most people continually refuse to learn about their tech and cry about it when things go wrong. Professionally its great for me as it keeps me employed but sometimes I have to speak up on behalf of said tech to clear up the BS.

    Ultimately don't be caught up on being a fan boy and jump ships if you must. The grass is always greener

    Below is some of my personal experience with tech that I think was great/terrible.

    Fail list:
    Win Vista - WTF
    HTC Touch Pro 2 - MS dropped support for Win Mobile 6.x, I went down with the ship
    Samsung Epic 4G - took almost a year for Froyo, no support afterwards
    iPhone 4s - 5g Wi-Fi never really work right before it was replaced by a 5s
    Mac Book Pro Early 2006 - No support for OSX 10.7 or above
    iPhone 5s - Random lockups on software up to iOS 8
    Win 8 - WTF part duex
    Samsung ATIV S Neo - dam I hate this phone

    Win list:
    Palm Treo - My first smart phone and it was really great
    Win Mobile 6 - it was great at its time
    Win 8.1 - a great start, I was actually upset when I saw the first Win 10 preview
    OSX + iOS - great combo if you go all the way
    MS Band - awesome device if you use it for realz
    Samsung ATI S Neo - Win Phone 8.1 is great (still hate the phone)
    Surface Pro - great product
    Win 10 - finally the answer!
    Abhishek Singh19 likes this.
    10-05-2015 10:05 PM
  11. CygnusOrion's Avatar
    You could easily find threads like this on an Apple forum. There is no widespread news stories about faulty Surface Pro 3s. Reviews are fairly glowing and customer satisfaction is high. It's up to Microsoft to raise the bar with SP4 and keep on giving excellent customer support.
    10-05-2015 10:18 PM
  12. Polychrome's Avatar
    The only thing I really have to say in any of this is I've had to help customers restore or hard reset numerous iOS9 and Lollipop devices over wifi issues due to software updates.

    This is not an issue with any one operating system. Updates are known for fixing one thing and breaking another. Unfortunately, there's no realistic way to beta test something heavily enough to unleash it on the populace without a few bugs. This is why Microsoft was so loose with the beta versions of windows 10. They wanted people to find this stuff.

    Unfortunately the RT is a tough call. A few years back it almost made sense to port windows to ARM, but all the PC manufacturers poured out tons of intel atom devices instead. I was seeing computers with full desktop capabilities in the form factor of kindles. I'm honestly not sure who to "fault" in a case like this. Maybe the manufacturers simply figured anybody who wants Windows wants the whole deal.
    10-06-2015 01:30 AM
  13. mariusmuntean's Avatar
    Not sure what statistics you are talking about. I'm sure Windows Phone 7 users and Zune users had the same issues I have with Surface 2 in that they were pretty much abandoned. Anyone wanting a new Windows Phone on Verizon will soon be out of luck, so I don't know what statistics you are talking about there either. And the laptop forums are filled with people going back to Windows 8.1 because of problems.
    Of course they are switching back! because windows 10 is broken! Had it on my Lenovo miix3 1030. All of a sudden, apps won't upgrade, start menu won't open, tray icons won't open, no metro apps would open in fact. And all this after doing nothing special on it, only automatic updates that were installed. Of course I had to reinstall from scratch...what a joke. after each problem you need to reinstall, this is so wrong! Since then I said goodbye MS, my old 2011 macbook pro runs the latest OSX flawlessly on an old core 2 duo cpu and a 5400rpm hdd. Never a MS device again, and for sure NEVER windows 10!
    10-06-2015 01:50 AM
  14. mariusmuntean's Avatar
    I mean, you are still using WP7 (while many are using WP 8.1) and Surface 2 (while many are using Surface Pro / Surface 3). It is expected that Microsoft has minimal support for these platforms.

    As for the bugs of Windows 10, they are not critical for me. I am using Windows 10 for my daily work. I know some users are experiencing more serious problems and they are reporting in forums. But still most users have their Windows 10 running properly but they would not report their good experiences in forums.

    I think most of the problems are hardware compatibility issues. I think Microsoft should not allow these computers to upgrade until they have fixed all the hardware-related problems.

    Threshold 2 will be much improved.
    Look man, MS has a "good" history of ditching more than 1,2 year old devices. For sake! The latest OSX can run on a 2010 old macbook without issues. and you are telling me here that some devices are having issues with windows 10 because of their component drivers? what does MS expect from us?? to buy a new 1500$ surface every year??? because they are a bunch of lazy guys that are trying to simply embarrass themselves, and make the users look like fools? MS has a BAD rep. since WP7.8 and Surface RT variants!! and it will be VERY HARD for them to wipe that out.
    10-06-2015 01:56 AM
  15. Muessig's Avatar
    This thread has started to sidetrack into opinions about topics other than the issue the OP was talking about. It's run its course. Closed.
    Laura Knotek and Guytronic like this.
    10-06-2015 02:43 AM
  16. fatclue_98's Avatar
    Don't they all? :-)

    Sent from my BlackBerry Classic on Tapatalk
    10-06-2015 12:18 PM
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