Getting Bummed About Apps

[gpstrucker]

I find the developers excuse about not being able to implement features due to the OS to be dubious. I think the user base doesn't justify the effort for them at this point. The apps will get better when the user base increases. And the user base will increase as more low end phones are released. That's how android has come to dominate the market. Most people don't know the difference and just choose whatever is cheapest. Getting more low end phones will help steal some of android's market share.​

I am really hoping this is going to be the case. As for the developers to which I referred, they do have a WP app and it's free just like on the other OS, it simply lacks a lot of the function of features. I feel pretty confident about their reason for it sat this point (but acknowledge you never know for sure).

I do remember when Android apps really sucked, and they have come a long way since then. I am seriously rooting for WP, if I weren't I wouldn't have paid full retail price to buy one from VZW. I suppose that's the very reason I am frustrated with the fact that so many apps seem to be crippled cousins of the Android and iOS apps.

If it is simply a market share issue, that will resolve itself over time as you say. I am simply concerned it's an OS issue preventing implementation of functions and features. If so it's going to be up to MS to get on the ball and fix that before the OS dies a slow death (which I would hate to see).

 

[gpstrucker]

MyFitnessPal for Android is a pretty bad example in my opinion. Yes, it may have a couple features the WP version doesn't have, but it also has ads (the only MFP app on any platform to have ads), the UI is very clunky, and it constantly has to sync when you start it up (much more so than their apps for iOS or WP). Not that you don't have a point, but MFP is a bad example to take.

Android http://i1-handheld.softpedia-static.com/images/software/screens/MyFitnessPal-for-Android_4.jpg

WP http://www.windowsphoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/1693_MyFitnessPal.jpg

Yeah, the Android MFP app has issues for sure. I only picked that one cause I have communicated with the developers. The WP app is missing the news feed as well as the daily/weekly macro charts, both of which I really like to have but can live without. Inputting diary info on the WP version is actually better. My concern is why those other features aren't included.

 

[gpstrucker]

Why complain here? Seriously, are you looking for validation on what you're saying and just leave WP8? If it doesn't meet your needs then don't use it. No one OS is for everyone.

No, I started a CONVERSATION regarding the relative quality and function of the currently available WP apps.

 

[gpstrucker]

I haven't experienced any problems or shortcomings with MyFitnessPal. Handyscan is fine for scanning. About the only complaint I have is the lack of an At Bat 13 app. I guess that just goes to show that people have different needs and expectations.

You're quite right, of course. Both Handyscan and HDScan were disappointments for me. I need good, high quality documents scans on the go and neither of them give me good results. Honestly, if someone could come out with a scanning app for WP as good as Camscanner that would be great.

A lot of the WP apps intended for the things I need to do come close. Some are actually very good. It's the overall lack of functions and features that really bothers me. Is it that hard to build autocropping and document rotation into a scanning app (like Camscanner has)?

 

[gpstrucker]

I'm right there with you, gpstrucker. When I picked up my first Windows Phone -- the venerable Samsung Focus -- I thought I knew what I was signing up for. This was during the first few days of WP7's release, and I had been following Windows Phone development for the preceding year. In the lead-up, Microsoft had announced numerous app "partners" for launch -- AP, Hulu, Pandora, EA, and numerous others -- even going so far as to post "screenshots" showing the respective apps in-action. At the time, it was generous to call the OS "fledgling" -- it famously lacked copy + paste, the Marketplace was *extremely* buggy, etc. Nevertheless, I jumped all-in; this was *Microsoft*, after all, and when the promised launch apps arrived and were joined by the apps that were sure to come, Windows Phone was catch up to the competition in no time!

Of course, that's never come to pass. WP has picked up a number of great apps -- some, including "launch partner" Pandora and the official Twitter app, have turned out to be best in breed. At the same time, though, other apps, like Hulu, never materialized. Some, like iHeartRadio and MLB At-Bat, materialized for awhile and then disappeared. Some like Spotify have appeared on the platform, but lack so many features (and are so buggy) that they're barely worth using. And many, many (many) others -- HBO Go, Pocket, Pinterest, Vine, SnapChat, FlipBoard, Nest, Roku, HelloWallet, Simple, yada, yada -- not only are missing from the platform but have no app planned.

After being on the platform for 2 1/2 years, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that the app situation is far worse than I thought it would be. When developers showed no interest in developing for WP7, I convinced myself that WP8 -- with its unified kernel and easier cross-development -- would open the floodgates for new phone apps. That hasn't happened. In fact, the opposite has happened -- developers are now ignoring Windows 8, as well. It's quite depressing.

The OS is, at least in my mind, the best of the mobile OS's out there. I love the look, I love the functionality. If I left, I would miss it. Still, I've lately been going back and forth in very seriously considering a move to another platform. I really haven't made up my mind about what I want to do, but I do know that I'm feeling a lot now like I did just before my much-loved Zune player got the axe by Microsoft. My preference would be that Windows Phone announce a slew of apps soon and I just stay where I am...but I'm losing faith. :-(

That's pretty much how I am seeing it. I do love the UI and how WP works overall. I am concerned the apps situation just may never improve.

 

[robotaholic]

The Android version is not clunky at all. I have used it for 2 yrs and lost almost 40 pounds with it and made countless friends. I've seen it improve over that time because they release frequent updates. It integrates into my Facebook timeline, reminds me if I forget to log a breakfast and syncs the changes seamlessly with my Android tablets. The advertisement has never bothered me and I've never hit it on accident. On Windows Phone it doesn't have news feed or let you see your friends. Windows Phone App | MyFitnessPal.com

At least it is available on all versions of Windows Phone:

• Windows Phone 8
• Windows Phone 7.5
• Windows Phone 7

 

[Eric The Fruit Bat]

If that was the case, then why haven't we seen ISV's that implement a relatively trivial feature-selectable SMS alert tones per contact? Those were some of the first apps out of the gate for Andriod and iOS; especially from vendors who played in the Windows Mobile space years ago-and it's STILL one of the top requested features since WP7 was introduced. Since that time we've had two major releases, and still no native or thrid-party app support.

What's even more infuriating is that even the late lamented Symbian Phones could do this with their limited app market years ago.

What part of PHONE in Windows Phone does Microsoft not understand?

 

[snowmutt]

Won't it be great when this stops showing up in our forums????


My Wife and I are happy with our WP 7's, and will see it through to the end of the contracts. But, there are some basic apps which just need to show up soon. Everyone here has heard me moan about my wife needing a true credit card reader for her start-up business. Hopefully, that becomes a non-issue by the Holidays or WP loses her, despite her dis-like of Android.

My sons friends wanted WP, no Marvel Comics app- they went Android.

I have had a few other examples, but it is just a bummer. I feel this is better and better, and the Windows 8 cross platform identity will solve this. I truly, truly do.

But MS is letting it happen in it's time, which is painful for us.

 

[spaulagain]

Won't it be great when this stops showing up in our forums????


My Wife and I are happy with our WP 7's, and will see it through to the end of the contracts. But, there are some basic apps which just need to show up soon. Everyone here has heard me moan about my wife needing a true credit card reader for her start-up business. Hopefully, that becomes a non-issue by the Holidays or WP loses her, despite her dis-like of Android.

My sons friends wanted WP, no Marvel Comics app- they went Android.

I have had a few other examples, but it is just a bummer. I feel this is better and better, and the Windows 8 cross platform identity will solve this. I truly, truly do.

But MS is letting it happen in it's time, which is painful for us.

There is no "letting happen." Its simply lack of market share. All the apps cost money and resources to develop and those companies have to justify those costs. At 3-5% market share for WP, they just can't justify that cost.

In addition, Responsive Web Design is pushing more companies to just have a flexible web interface, not necessarily a app for specific devices.

There is nothing MS can do to force these companies to build apps. All they can do is make it as easy as possible and with Windows Blue they will be greatly improving the easy compatibility between W8, WP8, and presumably Xbox.

While people don't choose WP because of lack of apps, app developers don't choose WP because of lack of users. Its just like Windows vs OSX.

Its going to take tine no matter what. IMO, no app is worth dealing with Android for.

 

[Mike Gibson]

I'm a developer and have a moderately complex XAML/Direct3D/C++ WP8 app in the Store so I thought I'd chime in. Note that I'm a MSFT fan and will never spend a dime on any AAPL product (I have hated that company/law firm for decades). First, the bad news. As others have noted already, MSFT's W8 and WP8 are caught in the proverbial chicken-and-egg scenario with regards to users and developers. There are no users because there are no apps and there are no apps because there are no users. That's bad enough but MS made it worse - they introduced a totally new API, WinRT/WinPRT. So, not only do devs have to justify developing for a small user base but they also have to justify learning a totally new API. That's a lethal double-whammy. Producing quality software requires experience with the tools and APIs ... and MS wiped out all the millions of manhours of Win32 experience with WinRT/WinPRT. In addition, the two implementations of WinRT and WinPRT are *not* compatible, so they've doubled the development effort! WinSock2 is available on WinPRT but not on WinRT (you have to use a new Windows Socket API with all its Async nonsense). There is a nice FilePicker in WinRT that seamlessly integrates with SkyDrive. On WinPRT there is no FilePicker API at all -- to access SkyDrive you have to use the Live SDK and write your own FilePicker. This makes no sense because on a Windows Phone, SkyDrive access is much more important due to the limited local storage space. In WinRT you can write a complete XAML+Direct3D in C++. In WinPRT you have to add a C# shell because C++ can't access the XAML APIs (apparently, this is due to WinPRT still using SilverLight guts for compatibility), and C# can't access Direct3D. I won't even mention the woeful Async file system APIs in both WinRT and WinPRT (literally orders-of-magnitude slower than their Win32 counterparts for complex operations). The list goes on and on.

What absolutely baffles me is why MSFT went with the Windows kernel across all devices given that they tossed its greatest asset in the trash (the well-known Win32 API). It added extra bulk to the OS for no good reason since devs can't access most of it. They should have created a WinRT OS instead if that was the plan all along. At a minimum, the cost of the Windows kernel should have been paid back by complete compatibility across devices ... but that didn't happen either. All pain but no gain. The whole WinRT effect smacks of internal C# tech evangelists run wild over the Windows team. They produce a pantload of stuff, show it off to clueless upper management (e.g. create a five minute demo on how to write a Blog Reader applet - with no error checking or other real world dev concerns, of course), then that gets pushed to the Windows team to finish and support. Years ago the Windows team would throw that stuff in the trash (fellow devs may recall #define LEAN_AND_MEAN, that's the old Windows team in action). I guess that isn't the case anymore.

The most frustrating thing of all? I see excellent performance in my C++ and Direct3D code on WP8. My app blows away my competitors' apps on Android and iOS. It reads and parses several MBs of data from its install directory at startup using the old C fopen() functions and it still starts up essentially instantaneously on my HTC 8X (I was pleasantly surprised). That's the Win32 APIs in action (the few that are supported). I keep the C#/WinPRT part as minimal as possible and focus on D3D for all rendering. In other words, going to the high performance Windows core was correct. It's WinRT/WinPRT that's the problem. All MSFT needed to do was create a core common XAML layout and rendering engine to replace USER and parts of GDI and leave the rest of the Win32 API available to apps. All the C# stuff belongs in a .NET middleware layer. Why they didn't do that is baffling. Devs would have been able to crank out complex, high quality apps quickly that scale across device types.

Maybe Windows Blue will fix some of these problems. Maybe not. MSFT seems dead set on WinRT and there's only so much that can be fixed there. We may be witnessing something that will be discussed in college business classes in a decade or two.

Anyway, that's my unsolicited two cents.

 

[spaulagain]

I'm a developer and have a moderately complex XAML/Direct3D/C++ WP8 app in the Store so I thought I'd chime in. Note that I'm a MSFT fan and will never spend a dime on any AAPL product (I have hated that company/law firm for decades). First, the bad news. As others have noted already, MSFT's W8 and WP8 are caught in the proverbial chicken-and-egg scenario with regards to users and developers. There are no users because there are no apps and there are no apps because there are no users. That's bad enough but MS made it worse - they introduced a totally new API, WinRT/WinPRT. So, not only do devs have to justify developing for a small user base but they also have to justify learning a totally new API. That's a lethal double-whammy. Producing quality software requires experience with the tools and APIs ... and MS wiped out all the millions of manhours of Win32 experience with WinRT/WinPRT. In addition, the two implementations of WinRT and WinPRT are *not* compatible, so they've doubled the development effort! WinSock2 is available on WinPRT but not on WinRT (you have to use a new Windows Socket API with all its Async nonsense). There is a nice FilePicker in WinRT that seamlessly integrates with SkyDrive. On WinPRT there is no FilePicker API at all -- to access SkyDrive you have to use the Live SDK and write your own FilePicker. This makes no sense because on a Windows Phone, SkyDrive access is much more important due to the limited local storage space. In WinRT you can write a complete XAML+Direct3D in C++. In WinPRT you have to add a C# shell because C++ can't access the XAML APIs (apparently, this is due to WinPRT still using SilverLight guts for compatibility), and C# can't access Direct3D. I won't even mention the woeful Async file system APIs in both WinRT and WinPRT (literally orders-of-magnitude slower than their Win32 counterparts for complex operations). The list goes on and on.

While I understand your pain for having to learn a new API and the conflicts with WP's API, I think you misrepresent WinRT and its potential.
Yes, Microsoft really did reinvent Windows from the ground up. While WinRT does require you to relearn things, its also very valuable in many respects.
First off, its a much more secure environment. Applications are contained in a sandbox and require user permissions to access files, etc.
The biggest benefit from WinRT though is that it opens a huge door for developers in the long run. It now puts HTML/JavaScript on an equal level of traditional languages such as C#, XAML, etc. This is extremely powerful because it allows a very large pool of web developers to now create native Windows 8 apps. These "web based" apps have all the same luxuries of API access as the traditional model. Something that was never possible before, and in competitor OSes like iOS, very limited. HTML/JavaScript are now first class citizens with Windows 8.
I can see how it would slow down initial development for existing developers because they have to relearn some things, but in the long run it will greatly pay off.
I'm a UI designer and front end Web Developer, being able to create native Windows 8 apps with my abilities is cool as hell. Also, Visual Studio is an amazing tool. I've just started getting into it on a project with my Dad who is a .NET developer. We're working with the MVC model and its awesome that the both of us can bring our two very different development worlds together.
I agree that the Windows --> Windows Phone aspects need to be more seamless and that is their plan. Hopefully Windows Blue will bring a lot of that to the table. But I think WinRT is a good thing.

 

[Lisa_Pinguo]

WP is a little boy when compare with Android and iOS, it needs more time to catch up.

Some apps are new to the new OS and those developers also need more time.

 

[falconrap]

If WP8 continues to grow at the current pace, or faster (which I suspect will happen when the 928 is released on Verizon), then developers won't really be able to ignore the platform much longer. Let's face it, iOS and Android are saturated with apps. When you have a user base of 30 million plus users on WP, it's already becoming hard to ignore, especially if your Android/iOS app can fill a void on WP. If the user base grows another 10 million or so this quarter, it becomes even harder to ignore. Having 3% market share is only a detriment when the market is small. As it keeps growing and, WP keeps growing its base, the raw number of potential customers becomes large enough to force developers to take notice.

Having done development work, but not for mobile apps, and used languages such as C/C++, Basic, VisualBasic, Cobol, LabView, LabWindows/CVI, and HTML, the one thing I have learned is that simply focusing on the syntax required to do a particular thing isn't that hard. Except for when some significant hurdles exist in the code and you have to figure out a work around. Just look at some of the leaks and recent releases and it's clear that more and more apps are coming, especially ones that make a difference. Hulu is on the way, as is Tapatalk. I don't know what some see, but I see an acceleration of big titles mixed with indies hitting the market.

Once Android starting selling in numbers similar to what WP8 is just now selling in, it took about a year for Android to start really pulling in the developers. I figure WP8 will be a must on most developers' lists by the end of this year, especially if the user base is in the 50-70 million user range, which is pretty likely with the current growth curve. Somehow, Android managed to sell all those phones with its own app issues during the day, and WP8 looks to be following the same path.

 

[o4liberty]

I have never been a heavy app user on any platform but for me the selection on WP8 is a whole lot better than what blackberry has to offer. I do agree for WP to be competitive they need to grow the app store and get some common features that they lack.

 

[a5cent]

@spaulagain
@mike gibson

What absolutely baffles me is why MSFT went with the Windows kernel across all devices given that they tossed its greatest asset in the trash (the well-known Win32 API). It added extra bulk to the OS for no good reason since devs can't access most of it. They should have created a WinRT OS instead if that was the plan all along. At a minimum, the cost of the Windows kernel should have been paid back by complete compatibility across devices ... but that didn't happen either. All pain but no gain.

Mike, you've described exactly where WP is intended to go. It just isn't there yet. Unfortunately, W8 was developed with an almost complete disregard for anything done by the WP team, so WP8 and W8 are not as similar as they should have been. IMHO Windows Blue exists only as a correctional effort to remedy that problem, which shouldn't have occurred in the first place. As such, Windows Blue is mostly about developers like yourself, not about end users.

Many people feel that having a unified kernel is meaningful accomplishment. Although that is true, it is currently meaningful to almost nobody outside of Microsoft. So far, the most important benefit to having a shared kernel has been the ability to use the same .NET runtime environment on both W8 and WP8. That is a very important step, but it is just one necessary step of many.

First off, its a much more secure environment. Applications are contained in a sandbox and require user permissions to access files, etc.

The permissions you refer to are only a question of the app model and the available APIs. At least theoretically, any program in any language could share those same security features, because ultimately, those features are implemented by the OS. It's just a matter of providing access to those features through other means than solely through the implementation of WP's .NET class libraries. By the time Windows Blue arrives, that is exactly what we should have on WP.

Of course .NET apps do enjoy some security features that native apps will never have, but they are almost entirely related to runtime memory management. I would argue that those security benefits aren't really that important for systems that pull all their apps from a controlled app store. Such security features are much more important on systems that can run apps originating from anywhere, such as Windows or Android.

The biggest benefit from WinRT though is that it opens a huge door for developers in the long run. It now puts HTML/JavaScript on an equal level of traditional languages such as C#, XAML, etc. This is extremely powerful because it allows a very large pool of web developers to now create native Windows 8 apps.

From mike's and my perspective, anything executed in a .NET runtime environment is far removed from being a native app. Many of the issues Mike referred to are consequences of .NET applications not being native. People that work with .NET languages or HMLT/JavaScript aren't creating native apps, and they will be somewhat limited in the things they can achieve as a result.

That doesn't change any of the positive aspects you mentioned though, which are certainly also true.

 

[jlzimmerman]

I understand why we make threads like this and converse to discuss shortfalls and disabilities of WP8 or its growth. It's good and healthy, but what I hope is also happening is that you make your voice be heard and give your suggestions to Microsoft. Or give your feedback HERE, or use Contact Us HERE.

 

[Connie Litrenta]

That's pretty much how I am seeing it. I do love the UI and how WP works overall. I am concerned the apps situation just may never improve.

Sure hope you're wrong about that because I'd love to see WP succeed. My biggest complaint is more with Mobile Office and there is NO excuse for that one since it's Microsoft's own app. I use this a lot and the Android Office apps have more functionality. I can't even add/delete rows in Excel. Really? C'Mon Microsoft. I plan on sticking with my Lumia 920 as I love the phone really but I really hope I see improvements soon. Oh and I do wnat to thank MS for giving me something that I CAN'T get anywhere else - rooms. I suppose a lot of people don't use this feature but it is invaluable when communicating with my technology impaired hubby. :grin:

 

[Connie Litrenta]

Android has a lot of apps going for it but I am often times reminded about why I'm using WP8 when I get on my Android Tablet and experience those pesky little "Force Closes". So not missing those. :wink:

 

[spaulagain]

@spaulagain
@mike gibson

From mike's and my perspective, anything executed in a .NET runtime environment is far removed from being a native app. Many of the issues Mike referred to are consequences of .NET applications not being native. People that work with .NET languages or HMLT/JavaScript aren't creating native apps, and they will be somewhat limited in the things they can achieve as a result.

That doesn't change any of the positive aspects you mentioned though, which are certainly also true.

I think you and I are referring to a native app differently. When I say native app, I'm not referring to an app that runs at the most core level of the OS or machine language, I'm talking about an app that is specifically designed for that OS vs a web application.

I think native applications in the manner you are referring to are a dieing breed maybe only used for core functions on specific applications.

 

[Mike Gibson]

Mike, you've described exactly where WP is intended to go. It just isn't there yet. Unfortunately, W8 was developed with an almost complete disregard for anything done by the WP team, so WP8 and W8 are not as similar as they should have been. IMHO Windows Blue exists only as a correctional effort to remedy that problem, which shouldn't have occurred in the first place. As such, Windows Blue is mostly about developers like yourself, not about end users.

W8 is a better implementation of the whole *RT concept than WP8. It has FilePickers, etc. along with D2D and WIC. In my WinPRT C++ app I had to dig up some ancient libpng code to load .PNG files into my D3D textures. Ridiculous. This inconsistent and incomplete implementation across platforms would be excusable if MSFT was a tiny, overworked startup ... but MSFT has 90,000+ employees and WinRT/WinPRT are *strategic* platforms. Basically, if Windows fails then the heart will have been ripped out of MSFT. It will take 10-20 years but it will surely die.

Many people feel that having a unified kernel is meaningful accomplishment. Although that is true, it is currently meaningful to almost nobody outside of Microsoft. So far, the most important benefit to having a shared kernel has been the ability to use the same .NET runtime environment on both W8 and WP8. That is a very important step, but it is just one necessary step of many.

The .NET runtime is just a middleware layer. It could sit on top of a mini kernel, not Windows, so that can't be a justification. The only reason for a Windows kernel is to allow C++ programmers lower-level access to the Win32 APIs, which they've significantly restricted. Why have it at all? I have to laugh when I see people ask "where is PhotoShopRT?" and other questions like that. WinRT is *incapable* of supporting such complex apps, by design. Want to add a filter pack to PhotoShopRT? Good luck with that. RT apps can't load DLLs outside their installation and you can't install DLLs into another RT app, so everything has to be in the initial distribution. In addition, RT image support is tied to the underlying hardware, which means you can't load bitmaps larger than the underlying texture support (which is 2048 to 4096 pixels for lower-end hardware) without doing your own tiling. You should see all the poor devs on MSDN asking about why they can't load a photo in their RT app. And the TextBlock limitation to the supported texture height is simply the result of incompetence. How to display an almost unlimited number of lines of text was solved decades ago.

Why the implementation of WinRT and WinPRT is so amateurish is beyond me. These are strategic platforms for MSFT and should have been treated that way by upper management. In his prime, if someone had gone to a design meeting with BillG and presented WinRT/WinPRT as implemented, BillG would have torn them a new one (I know people that came out of those meetings ... and they sometimes walked funny. They might have been fired on the spot.