Google Now

[arrowrand]

It appears you expect such features must be implemented server-side, when in truth the only reason Google does this server-side is because that is what is necessary for them to earn money. If you aren't collecting and selling that data, then it is much cheaper to implement such features client-side, i.e. on users own personal devices.

Aside from app size and overhead of a client side app doing all of this work on my device, there's storage and a real risk of data from phone to tablet being different. You have your preferences and I have mine, but if client side (on phone and tablet) were so easy it would already be done by MS, BlackBerry and Apple.

As long as the data collected by those profiling routines stays on my devices, Microsoft can scan my mails as much as they want without raising any red privacy flags. Explain to my why this can't work and I'll believe you have a point.

MS is already scanning your email and storing that information on their servers.

We also couldn't disagree more on the importance of this Scroogle campaign. You seem to think it has the power to dictate Microsoft's policies and strategies, whereas I think it is completely irrelevant. Either way, I don't think Microsoft is forced to degrade any privacy policies to compete with Google Now. Only the methods by which they collect that information will differ, which is fine, as long as Microsoft doesn't also intend to become a competitor in the advertising business.

To compete with Google Now MS would have to unify your profile within the service to bring it all together, and suddenly they're doing more with your data than they originally claimed.

Scroogle would absolutely interfere with Bing Now unless or until MS does away with it.

And MS is already a competitor in the ad business. They may not be using your email to sell ads against, but ads that you see on Bing or sites displaying MS ads are absolutely influenced by your Web history.

MS is a very short leap from using Outlook.com mail contents to improve their ad targeting, and revenue.

 

[arrowrand]

However a simple search for instance a camera or a watch using google now will result in ads for me almost forever, even after I buy those products or if I change my mind and decide not to buy I will continue receiving those ads like the current google search on the web browser? google is an advertisement company and is not providing those wonderful things for free...

MS sells ads against your Bing history. You're still going to see ads based on those searches that you mentioned.

 

[arrowrand]

It doesn't know about traffic jams unless that information is available through your DOT. It doesn't know about trains or planes being late unless that information is available from a 3rd party. My wife and I fly from time to time, we always signup for SMS alerts. It does the same thing.

Actually, a lot of Google Maps traffic data is crowd sourced, but so what. Google Now pulls together information that isn't easily accessible and presents it (in what I think) is a very useful way.

On the flight alert thing, yeah it would have been so much more convenient to sign up for text alerts with 3 airlines as opposed to just hearing Google Now alert me. Hands off is such a PIA.

 

[tk-093]

I think Google Now is pretty cool, but living in a smaller populated area, a lot of the cool things like telling me when to leave for meetings and stuff don't really impact me. For those who used the UPS type features... is it scanning your server Gmail, or just the email on your local device? If I buy something using my Live email address does Google Now just get that info from my local device, or does it have to be a GMail account? I know with calendar ETA it is just looking at my local device since I use my Live calender for that and it works just fine.

It doesn't matter either way to me where it is scanning, but if its reading the device info, it makes it pretty easy for Apple or MS to come up with their own version and not care about having all the services integrated.

 

[tk-093]

It doesn't know about traffic jams unless that information is available through your DOT.

I've looked into it a little bit and I think a lot of their traffic info actually comes from Android devices. There are millions of those devices out there broadcasting their info back to Google and if a bunch are on a road and all start to slow down I think that has an impact on how traffic is displayed for people.

Where I live I don't really deal with traffic, but when I visited my sister out in San Fran, the Google traffic stuff was pretty darn accurate.

I have no idea how much of an impact the "crowd sourced" traffic data plays on maps, but I think it's pretty awesome. Part of me thinks it's one of those things that for the good of everybody that all the mobile OS's should report their data to one location and so it would improve traffic report for everybody. Make everything safer and easier to get around.

 

[arrowrand]

For those who used the UPS type features... is it scanning your server Gmail, or just the email on your local device?

AFAIK, it's all server side scanning.

You make it sound like you're getting Google Now alerts based on your Live calendar from your phone, is that correct?

If it is, then obviously they're pulling in data from your phone as well.

 

[tk-093]

AFAIK, it's all server side scanning.

You make it sound like you're getting Google Now alerts based on your Live calendar from your phone, is that correct?

If it is, then obviously they're pulling in data from your phone as well.

Yep. I get ETA alerts based off my @live.com account on my GS3. Which is cool. I'll have to come up with a reason to order something via UPS to see if it reads my local Live email.

 

[palandri]

I've looked into it a little bit and I think a lot of their traffic info actually comes from Android devices. There are millions of those devices out there broadcasting their info back to Google and if a bunch are on a road and all start to slow down I think that has an impact on how traffic is displayed for people.

Where I live I don't really deal with traffic, but when I visited my sister out in San Fran, the Google traffic stuff was pretty darn accurate.

I have no idea how much of an impact the "crowd sourced" traffic data plays on maps, but I think it's pretty awesome. Part of me thinks it's one of those things that for the good of everybody that all the mobile OS's should report their data to one location and so it would improve traffic report for everybody. Make everything safer and easier to get around.

Come on. That's like saying it scans GPS positions of Android phones on train 569, then calculates it's 30 minute late and sends an alert out to all the people with Androids waiting for train 569, by their GPS position that it's 30 minutes late according to their latest Crowd Source data calculations.

 

[JerseySal]

Oh look. My phone is telling me where I'm at, what surrounds me, and where I should go and what I should do next...as if my eyes, ears, and brain, don't work anymore

 

[fatclue_98]

As Chris Rock said "don't fear Al-Qaeda, fear Al-Cracka". The "man" is definitely watching. Don't believe me? Resist the urge to do anything data-related on your phone for about 6 hours, monitor your data usage and see just how much background data is transmitted.

 

[arrowrand]

Come on. That's like saying it scans GPS positions of Android phones on train 569, then calculates it's 30 minute late and sends an alert out to all the people with Androids waiting for train 569, by their GPS position that it's 30 minutes late according to their latest Crowd Source data calculations.

Actually, that's exactly what happens. For traffic at least. If you're route is seeing slow traffic And Google has that info, you get an alert.

I've only used the transit feature once in Chicago. The train showed up exactly when Google Transit said it would though.

 

[arrowrand]

Oh look. My phone is telling me where I'm at, what surrounds me, and where I should go and what I should do next...as if my eyes, ears, and brain, don't work anymore

If your eyes, ears and brain were all that one needed to get to where they were going, and knowing what to do once they got there the travel guide industry would have never existed.

Further, neither MS or Nokia would have wasted all of that money creating map, navigation and local apps.

Google Now has little to do with your statement though. It would be more prudent to use Navigation and Local. Now would only show you reminders of places that you've actually searched for if you have Places enabled in settings.

 

[tk-093]

Come on. That's like saying it scans GPS positions of Android phones on train 569, then calculates it's 30 minute late and sends an alert out to all the people with Androids waiting for train 569, by their GPS position that it's 30 minutes late according to their latest Crowd Source data calculations.

Who said they were doing it on trains? We are talking about traffic.

Here you go: Real-time traffic returns to Google Maps directions - GadgetBox on NBCNews.com

 

[tk-093]

Holy smokes. I'm not sure how I feel about what just happened, but it’s timely to our discussion.. A few minutes ago I googled a restaurant on my PC. I didn’t realized I was signed into my Google account but I guess I am. (I only have a google account as a necessary evil to use Android and I’m using Android because I support our mobile users and we use Good and there is no Good on WP8 yet.)

Anyway, I just now notice that I have a Google Now card with that restaurant and an ETA. (2+ hours away, I have no plans to go there.)

It’s kinda cool, but I dunno. Why would it think I’m planning on eating at a place 142 miles away?

 

[palandri]

Who said they were doing it on trains? We are talking about traffic.

Here you go: Real-time traffic returns to Google Maps directions - GadgetBox on NBCNews.com

Everyone is talking about how smart Google Now is, so it should be out calculating everything for everybody, by car, train, plane or boat. I read Athima Chansanchai article, who is she? Sure it can combine user data, with other 3rd party data available. Trust me, it doesn't have a brain of it's own.

 

[tk-093]

Everyone is talking about how smart Google Now is, so it should be out calculating everything for everybody, by car, train, plane or boat. I read Athima Chansanchai article, who is she? Sure it can combine user data, with other 3rd party data available. Trust me, it doesn't have a brain of it's own.

Maybe it does, I only travel by car.

Who is Athima? I don't have a clue, I could care less. She's just writing about what came from a Google Blog about how they do traffic.
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009...009/08/bright-side-of-sitting-in-traffic.html

 

[a5cent]

Aside from app size and overhead of a client side app doing all of this work on my device, there's storage and a real risk of data from phone to tablet being different. You have your preferences and I have mine, but if client side (on phone and tablet) were so easy it would already be done by MS, BlackBerry and Apple.

Your position was that Microsoft can't possibly implement those three features you mentioned in post #34. I explained why Microsoft can, and you've begrudgingly admitted that is true (not easy, but possible). End of story.

Apparently, you have preferences in regard to where profiling occurs, but your preferences don't make the alternatives impossible. While I agree with your reasoning to a degree, you are stretching a bit too far to rationalize your preference. The computational resources required to profile an e-mail and store the results are barely relevant. Yes, implementing such software requires some serious skills... but the complexity of these programs manifests itself at design time, not at runtime. It's nothing like simulating weather patterns or nuclear explosions. The only people who need a datacentre to profile e-mails are those that profile billions of them each day and store the results for later use. Profiling a few dozen e-mails a day would barely register as a blip on a smartphone CPU's daily schedule.

However, if you insist, Microsoft could also profile our e-mails exactly the same way Google does. I see no problem with that. The only thing Microsoft needs to worry about, to avoid looking hypocritical (I'm assuming that is your problem with the Scroogle campaign), is where the results are stored. IMHO, as long as the results of profiling our personal information are stored on our personal devices, Microsoft is just fine.

MS is already scanning your email and storing that information on their servers.

Maybe they are. I certainly don't know what every last Microsoft employee is up to at all times. But as of now, and to the best of my knowledge, they do not. Have you got a source?

Even if Microsoft did do both, it only concerns me if I can't control what data is being handed out to whom. As long as my personal data isn't being made available to third parties (which is what Google legally reserves the right to do, but Microsoft doesn't), then I don't care.

To compete with Google Now MS would have to unify your profile within the service to bring it all together...

That is another statement that requires backing up. I don't believe that to be true, but I reserve the right to change my mind if you can explain why... IMHO, just as before, the requirement is only that information can be brought together from various services. Precisely where it is brought together isn't important.

As for the rest of your statements, I appreciate reading them, but I don't think either of us need spend time debating them, as we are unlikely to convince each other of much.

 

[arrowrand]

Your position was that Microsoft can't possibly implement those three features you mentioned in post #34. I explained why Microsoft can, and you've begrudgingly admitted that is true (not easy, but possible). End of story.

Not the end of the story. Possible does not mean feasible.

Profiling a few dozen e-mails a day would barely register as a blip on a smartphone CPU's daily schedule.

But it's not just email. It's search history, location history, calendar entries and on and on and on.

However, if you insist, Microsoft could also profile our e-mails exactly the same way Google does. I see no problem with that.

Neither do I.

The only thing Microsoft needs to worry about, to avoid looking hypocritical (I'm assuming that is your problem with the Scroogle campaign), is where the results are stored. IMHO, as long as the results of profiling our personal information are stored on our personal devices, Microsoft is just fine.

That's not how it happens.

Maybe they are. I certainly don't know what every last Microsoft employee is up to at all times. But as of now, and to the best of my knowledge, they do not. Have you got a source?

Go to Outlook.com and search your email for a subject that you know exists in your email archive. Where do you think those results came from? Your mail is scanned, indexed and that info is stored on the MS side.

Don't take my word for it though, read this from Scroogled:

Outlook.com only scans the contents of your email to help protect you and display, categorize, and sort your mail appropriately.

Machine scanned, indexed and stored.

Even if Microsoft did do both, it only concerns me if I can't control what data is being handed out to whom. As long as my personal data isn't being made available to third parties (which is what Google legally reserves the right to do, but Microsoft doesn't), then I don't care.

Actually, Google's privacy policy states pretty clearly that your consent is required before they share your information with any outside company. They've never asked me for that permission, so they've never shared it.

That is another statement that requires backing up. I don't believe that to be true, but I reserve the right to change my mind if you can explain why... IMHO, just as before, the requirement is only that information can be brought together from various services. Precisely where it is brought together isn't important.

Bing Now would have to unify your information in one common interface to present it in a useful way.

 

[falconrap]

I'll be brutally honest...this reminds me of all the annoying emails I get from places like Amazon.com trying to send me information they think is relevant too me because I searched for something once on their site. This is just more extraneous information being jammed in your face. Worse still, it shows how much Google is willing and capable of conglomerating all of your search history and targeting you (i.e they are making even more money off you and know more about you than you may really want them to know). I get the geek factor in all of this. I do. But I prefer getting information when I want it and how, not how some algorithm thinks I want it, and when.

 

[a5cent]

Not the end of the story. Possible does not mean feasible.

Ok, but as long as possible means possible, I'm okay with that. Nothing anyone can say will convince you it is feasible (someone must do it), so we might as well leave it at that.

But it's not just email. It's search history, location history, calendar entries and on and on and on.

You are not seriously suggesting that any of those things are insurmountable obstacles, are you?

Go to Outlook.com and search your email for a subject that you know exists in your email archive. Where do you think those results came from? Your mail is scanned, indexed and that info is stored on the MS side.

lol, okay, you got me. However, what people are concerned about is profiling. Profiling also involves scanning, indexing and storing, and in the context of this discussion, that is what I thought you were referring to. I don't think anybody cares about the types of processing you mentioned. If that was all Google did, they would have gone bankrupt long ago. But I'll give you that, Microsoft does need to give us the ability to sort and search our own e-mails.

Actually, Google's privacy policy states pretty clearly that your consent is required before they share your information with any outside company. They've never asked me for that permission, so they've never shared it.

Yes, I saw that. However, since I'm a software engineer and not a legal expert, I won't argue with you on this one. It is my understanding that Google does ask you for permission. They do so every time you sign up for a new service. You grant them permission every time you tick the "accept terms of service" checkbox. They certainly aren't going to ring you up and ask you in person now, are they?

Bing Now would have to unify your information in one common interface to present it in a useful way.

Yes, a common interface is required. I agree. At least I can't imagine what an alternative would look like. However, a unified interface doesn't necessitate a unified data repository. That should be obvious and it is also the basis for most of my argument.