I want to be, but I'm not convinced - Universal Apps

[TheCudder]

I think what Microsoft really needs to do is persuade dev's to eventually abandon their current Win32 applications. Something I've noticed is the new universal apps designed by Microsoft are a lot more "desktop friendly" than the Windows 8 era WinRT apps. The upside, is they can offer the elimination of piracy. But the down side is Microsoft's take a cut of the profits now.

Just imagine an application such as Adobe Photoshop Lightroom being strictly a universal WinRT app. A photographer can do basic processing and filtering of photos on their phone, laptop & desktop --- all while sync'ing the changes in a real time "OneNote" type fashion.

 

[rhapdog]

I'm a geezer, too, but there's an almost perfect counterexample in OS/2. It was "the future" of PC development and IBM+MSFT poured hundreds of millions of $$$ into its development and marketing. It failed miserably because it couldn't supplant the existing Win16 API. OS/2 had a zero userbase and zero developer base, wasn't accepted in the PC community, and required rewriting significant chunks of code to convert to it. And that was at a time when MSFT was coming on strong. It's even worse today because MSFT has far more powerful, entrenched competitors (if things continue the way they are, AAPL will be able to do a cash buyout of MSFT in five years).

Not trying to drag up an argument, since we've already moved on from this, however, I'd like to make a clarification since I obtained some good information on this. I was talking to my Dad earlier today (the one that worked for IBM.) He said the reason that Microsoft and IBM parted ways over OS/2 and the reason Microsoft decided not to port their programs to OS/2 was because IBM was insisting on requiring all 3rd parties to pay a licensing fee or royalty or something like that for each and every program sold on OS/2. IBM wanted their cut even from Microsoft, so Microsoft called it quits. No one wanted to pay IBM in order to write programs for IBM, so the OS died. This according to my Dad who was "in the know" on the situation.

This, I suppose, could be compared to Microsoft charging a 30% fee for store apps each and every time one is sold? Perhaps Microsoft needs to bring the fee down.

 

[a5cent]

This, I suppose, could be compared to Microsoft charging a 30% fee for store apps each and every time one is sold? Perhaps Microsoft needs to bring the fee down.

I believe that at least for games, MS should already have reduced their cut to essentially zero, or at least have defined a very low cut off point, say 10% per sale, but never more than $5'000 per title, independent of sales volume (just an example). Whatever the deal is, it needs to be a small enough number, so as to sway large publishers to use the Windows Store rather than their own custom built distribution channels (like EA's Origin), and convince everyone publishing on Steam to consider the Windows Store instead. That might turn out to be very worthwhile, if for no other reason than to just get people to browse the store at all.

If the gaming community and publishers eventually decide they no longer need Windows, which is what Android, iOS and Steam are all striving towards, then I think that spells the end of MS in the consumer market. At this time MS can still do something about it.

As for everything else, I'm not sure if MS reducing their cut would make a difference. That Apple, Google and MS all take the same cut makes the situation rather unlike the one between OS/2 and Windows. However, even if MS were to lower their cut, without Apple and Google following along, the biggest problem still remains, which is simply a lack of demand. If it's not worthwhile, in most cases, MS reducing their cut likely won't change that.

 

[spaulagain]

Makes more sense than just make the app and it will adjust on the fly according to devices. Sorry but just like the Kinect debacle devs wont make the universal its a hassle just like it is now or WP would have 1.5 million apps too! Devs aren't implementing Kinect into games because its a hassle no matter Microsoft's vision ! I'm sorry but im just being real with myself

You do realize devs are already building Universal apps right? And did you not read a thing I said above? This is not the same development situation as Windows Phone is now. In fact, it's damn near the opposite. No one said these apps would just magically work on all devices with the press of the button. I have no idea where you got that idea. But this platform will actually be easier to develop for a more broad variety of devices than either Apple or Google have made. Developers can also use one of, if not the most powerful backend language available (C#). On top of that Microsoft has made web languages a first class citizen opening up the developer base to the large pool of web developers. Something Apple and Android limit quite a bit.

In reality, you're not being real with yourself, you are simply blowing off what is actually a very compelling development platform. Even more so when they add iOS and Android a part of it. Comparing this to Kinect and saying this is all just a hassle to developers is about the most ridiculous thing I've heard. But go ahead, keep being "real with yourself."

 

[anon(5383410)]

Now 69% of Facebook's revenue comes from Mobile. It seems, people is not using the PC anymore for content consumption. That's a strong case against universal apps, and in favor of supporting Android apps on Windows.

That would be assuming that Facebook represents the bulk of content. I suppose it does for some but I try not to hangout with those people.

 

[spaulagain]

I think what Microsoft really needs to do is persuade dev's to eventually abandon their current Win32 applications. Something I've noticed is the new universal apps designed by Microsoft are a lot more "desktop friendly" than the Windows 8 era WinRT apps. The upside, is they can offer the elimination of piracy. But the down side is Microsoft's take a cut of the profits now.

Just imagine an application such as Adobe Photoshop Lightroom being strictly a universal WinRT app. A photographer can do basic processing and filtering of photos on their phone, laptop & desktop --- all while sync'ing the changes in a real time "OneNote" type fashion.

EXACTLY. I'm so glad someone gets it. I can't believe how hard it is for some people in this thread to see the potential here, and ultimately where things are heading. Microsoft is already beginning to do this with their own suite of apps, it's only a matter of time where the big desktop software companies out there begin to follow suit. There are a lot of advantages to this environment, especially going forward. It started out rough, but I think we are already seeing some clear wins down the road.

Adobe has shown themselves to be closely working with Microsoft in regards to the Surface Pro 3. If Microsoft and Adobe continue down that path with a long term partnership, that will be an extremely powerful combination. Windows might actually become the new norm for designers/photographers rather than OSX.

 

[spaulagain]

I believe that at least for games, MS should already have reduced their cut to essentially zero, or at least have defined a very low cut off point, say 10% per sale, but never more than $5'000 per title, independent of sales volume (just an example). Whatever the deal is, it needs to be a small enough number, so as to sway large publishers to use the Windows Store rather than their own custom built distribution channels (like EA's Origin), and convince everyone publishing on Steam to consider the Windows Store instead. That might turn out to be very worthwhile, if for no other reason than to just get people to browse the store at all.

If the gaming community and publishers eventually decide they no longer need Windows, which is what Android, iOS and Steam are all striving towards, then I think that spells the end of MS in the consumer market. At this time MS can still do something about it.

As for everything else, I'm not sure if MS reducing their cut would make a difference. That Apple, Google and MS all take the same cut makes the situation rather unlike the one between OS/2 and Windows. However, even if MS were to lower their cut, without Apple and Google following along, the biggest problem still remains, which is simply a lack of demand. If it's not worthwhile, in most cases, MS reducing their cut likely won't change that.

It's pretty common practice in business to cut deals or prices for partners/customers that create a lot of traffic. I imagine big names like Adobe, EA, and other large volume software companies will get significant discounts. They may even not have any fees or a couple years free. I believe Microsoft even announced at the Fall Windows 10 announcement, that they were planning on letting legacy apps be purchased and managed through the Windows Store to help IT departments manage software on devices. I can't imagine they would even think that's a possibility without drastically reducing the rate.

I work for an online payment processor, and we do exactly that. Large volume clients get significant discounts in fees/costs.

 

[tiziano27]

That would be assuming that Facebook represents the bulk of content. I suppose it does for some but I try not to hangout with those people.

Facebook started as a website with 100% of their revenue coming from PCs. This is a big change in behavior.

For apps from the "mobile era" it should be worst.

 

[spaulagain]

Facebook started as a website with 100% of their revenue coming from PCs. This is a big change in behavior.

For apps from the "mobile era" it should be worst.

NEWS FLASH: Mobile E-Commerce is Growing Rapidly!

This is pretty common knowledge now and has been for several years. It's one of the reasons there is such a push for Responsive websites to accommodate the massive surge in mobile traffic (due to smartphones).

It's also why your previous post above doesn't make any sense. Clearly mobile is seeing massive growth in the industry and dominating the traditional desktops. There are a bunch of reasons for this that I won't get into. But this presents an even stronger reason to build Universal apps and that Microsoft is doing the right thing by building a platform that is flexible for devices of all shapes and sizes. Universal apps are the future for Windows specifically because of the growth in mobile. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

 

[tiziano27]

NEWS FLASH: Mobile E-Commerce is Growing Rapidly!

This is pretty common knowledge now and has been for several years. It's one of the reasons there is such a push for Responsive websites to accommodate the massive surge in mobile traffic (due to smartphones).

It's also why your previous post above doesn't make any sense. Clearly mobile is seeing massive growth in the industry and dominating the traditional desktops. There are a bunch of reasons for this that I won't get into. But this presents an even stronger reason to build Universal apps and that Microsoft is doing the right thing by building a platform that is flexible for devices of all shapes and sizes. Universal apps are the future for Windows specifically because of the growth in mobile. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

The user base of Windows phones and tablets is so small. If the huge user base of PCs is irrelevant because people is not using the PC for content consumption, then there is no incentives to develop Universal apps.

 

[spaulagain]

The user base of Windows phones and tablets is so small. If the huge user base of PCs is irrelevant because people is not using the PC for content consumption, then there is no incentives to develop Universal apps.

I knew you would say this.

Basically what you are saying is...
1. No one is using PC anymore, or if they are, a lot less
2. Everyone is on Android/iPhone for mobile market
3. Universal apps are worthless because MS doesn't dominate the mobile market (yet)
4. Developers will refuse to put 5% more effort in to reach all of Microsoft's devices

In that case, is it your suggestion that Microsoft just completely bail on mobile and die off as the desktop market slowly fades away? If so, why are you on a Windows forum to begin with?

The only way Microsoft is going to gain in market share is if they offer a development platform that makes it easy for developers to reach as many people within their platform as possible. And while phones are still up in the air, I have no doubt that Microsoft can make a dent in the small tablet and 2 in 1s market. A market that will require the flexibility/mobility of Universal apps. Universal apps are the only way Microsoft has a chance of gain the mobile market and remain relative in the industry. So your complete dismissal of their value baffles me. It's like you want Windows to die.

FYI, Universal apps aren't just for consumption. There are already apps that are for production work. It's really short sighted to think they are incapable of being anything else other than consumption.

 

[tiziano27]

In that case, is it your suggestion that Microsoft just completely bail on mobile and die off as the desktop market slowly fades away? If so, why are you on a Windows forum to begin with?

Whoa, I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting Microsoft should offer itself to Apple for a buyout...

So your complete dismissal of their value baffles me. It's like you want Windows to die.

I want Universal apps and Windows 10 to succeed. But lately I'm thinking It could take years for the adoption of Universal apps, and maybe Microsoft can't wait much longer, so they may decide to add support for Android apps to close the app gap faster.

FYI, Universal apps aren't just for consumption. There are already apps that are for production work. It's really short sighted to think they are incapable of being anything else other than consumption.

The enterprise market is very different from the consumer market. In the enterprise market It doesn't make sense to develop for each platform. Html5 is an obvious choice for multiplatform environments. Although, many companies could decide to standardize on Windows devices and develop Universal apps.
However, if Microsoft could offer a cross platform framework with great tooling, guaranteeing backward compatibility, they could make a lot of money.

 

[trippymanni]

banking app? taking a snapshot of a cheque and having it automatically deposited? If you're doing something like that i would recommend you stop immediately. that is really high risk!

 

[luke_f]

The reason why Universal Apps have not been that successful until now is because Windows 8 has been a failure. Almost no one liked it when it came out, and even though much has been improved with 8.1, it still had a bad reputation and many people avoided it. With a market share stagnating at about 9% after more than two years, no one can call this successful. So today devs have the choice of sticking with Win32, targeting >90% of the market, or using WinRT/UniversalApp APIs and targeting <10% of the market. Sure, using the store has a lot of benefits especially for indie devs, like not having to care about payment, licensing, copy protection and all that stuff. Just put an app in the store and let MS do the rest. But the downside is that the market is still only a fraction of the whole PC market. So while Universal Apps have their benefits, they only target a small percentage of the PC market, and a very small percentage of the phone market. Guess why there are not millions of Windows Apps.

This is all going to change with Windows 10. With MS finally listening to customer feedback, they are definitely working on a great OS that will work very well on various form factors. I have no doubt that it is going to be very successful. By giving it for free to Win7/8 users for one year, I am pretty confident that they will be able to massively improve the market for Store Apps from the poor 9% they have right now. This is when it finally gets really attractive to develop Windows Apps. And when the work has already been done to create a Store App, a good share of them will probably also come to WP sooner or later. So this is when the Universal Apps concept will finally pay out, when apps from the huge PC market pull up the WP market. This time MS is really on the right track I think. Now they need to stay focused and play their cards right (this includes having the right hardware in place, hello flagship phone?!). Then they could be really successful.

 

[Mistaken Identity]

Windows 10 will do nothing. People are already invested and entrenched.

 

[spaulagain]

banking app? taking a snapshot of a cheque and having it automatically deposited? If you're doing something like that i would recommend you stop immediately. that is really high risk!

Doing anything on your phone is risky. We should all just throw our phones away and go back to cash only and trades. I should stop driving too, because that's risky, lots of people die in car accidents.

 

[a5cent]

I imagine big names like Adobe, EA, and other large volume software companies will get significant discounts. They may even not have any fees or a couple years free.

You could be right, but I'll believe it only when I see those big name publishers and indy game developers distributing their content via the Windows Store, rather than via Origin, Steam, etc. Until then I'll remain skeptical. Right now it doesn't seem to me that MS' gaming division has any aspirations beyond distributing Xbox content and tying PC gaming closer to their Xbox franchise. At least from the outside, it doesn't look like Steam or EA's Origin is even on their radar.

 

[spaulagain]

You could be right, but I'll believe it only when I see those big name publishers and indy game developers distributing their content via the Windows Store, rather than via Origin, Steam, etc. Until then I'll remain skeptical. Right now it doesn't seem to me that MS' gaming division has any aspirations beyond distributing Xbox content and tying PC gaming closer to their Xbox franchise. At least from the outside, it doesn't look like Steam or EA's Origin is even on their radar.

Microsoft really has no choice if they want to sign on big companies. Just like my company has no choice but to discount our rates if we want to acquire a large business. We even advertise on our website that if you process over a certain volume, call our sales team for discounted rates. It's industry norm that high volume = discounted rate. Especially in a system where acquisition is nearly a fixed cost.

That's part of how WalMart maintains such low prices. They purchase product in such high volume (bulk) from their suppliers that they get a discounted rate/price.

 

[MysticForce]

I want to be, but I'm not convinced.
--> Me neither.
Anyway I still love WP and I will use it in the future.

 

[rhapdog]

Whoa, I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting Microsoft should offer itself to Apple for a buyout...

That is just... smh

Not even going to respond further to that one. You must be joking. Don't quit your day job. Comedy isn't your thing.

I want Universal apps and Windows 10 to succeed. But lately I'm thinking It could take years for the adoption of Universal apps, and maybe Microsoft can't wait much longer, so they may decide to add support for Android apps to close the app gap faster.

Microsoft waited years waiting on the adoption of Windows fully while struggling with competition in the DOS arena. Competition that they eventually crushed with the slow adoption of Windows. If you have followed Microsoft's finances, business moves, profits, etc. over the years, along with that of their competitions, then you would know that they will have no problem waiting this out. Giving in with Android apps would kill the platform, because people would then have no reason to choose WP over Android, because security holes would have to be introduced to make it happen. Not going to happen.

Yes, Microsoft is interested in Android, but for 2 reasons. They want to sell software to users and they want to help wrestle control of Android away from Google, which will lessen Android as a threat overall. Search for Microsoft's buy-in of Cyanogen and the new partnership there, and how Cyanogen has stated their goal is to take control of Android away from Google. With Microsoft's help, it can be done.

The enterprise market is very different from the consumer market. In the enterprise market It doesn't make sense to develop for each platform. Html5 is an obvious choice for multiplatform environments. Although, many companies could decide to standardize on Windows devices and develop Universal apps.
However, if Microsoft could offer a cross platform framework with great tooling, guaranteeing backward compatibility, they could make a lot of money.

Microsoft is working on the cross platform system now. It's not all in place yet, but it will be by mid to late 2016. Has Microsoft announced this? No. I just know how Microsoft works. They just bought into Cyanogen, who has promised to take Android away from Google. With Microsoft's backing, they can do just that. Microsoft's new VS 2015 will allow you to build and compile for Universal Apps as well as build and compile for Android and iOS. Now, while it doesn't yet use the same codebase and APIs for Android and iOS, they are working on just that, so that you can write once and compile for everything.

It will be coming, and then it will be the easiest way to develop if you want to do it for both Android and iOS, and developers who put out apps on both platforms are going to want to get in on that, to reach the biggest market. Guess what? When they do, it will just be one more button push away from a Universal App? Even adding a small market share for the effort of pushing a button will be well worth it, so, yes, it is going to help Apps come to Windows 10 on all devices this way. Think about what that will do for Windows 10 phones, because app-gap will no longer exist.

Microsoft knows what they are doing, and they know they only have to hold out a few more years to get there. They can afford to take the hit for the long term benefit. Windows phones aren't done, they haven't even gotten started yet. Microsoft will hold out on this inevitable adoption just like they did for the initial Windows adoption getting people off of DOS. (See my comment below to Mistaken Identity.)

Windows 10 will do nothing. People are already invested and entrenched.

That's what people said about Windows because everyone was already invested and entrenched in DOS. Microsoft was losing ground in DOS because of Dr. DOS, PC DOS, Compaq DOS, and others. Microsoft stayed the course and got people over to Windows. They will do the same with Windows 10. It will take a few years like it did converting people from DOS to Windows, but it will work. It will be a big boon for Microsoft within the next few years. I've watched the market and how things work long enough to understand how things work, and I've always been quite good at predicting new tech and when that new tech will be viable.