I want to be, but I'm not convinced - Universal Apps

[spaulagain]

^So glad I'm not the only one that looks past the next 6 months. Microsoft has proven time after time that they will bulldoze through years of struggle to get to their goal. Xbox is another example where they had a rough start for years, but in the end they pulled it off and have a really solid product. And as a result, a "Window" into everyone's living room to deliver their services and integrate Cortana, etc.

 

[EBUK]

I can't believe how hard it is for some people in this thread to see the potential here

I don't believe I've heard anyone say they didn't see potential. I see the POTENTIAL. As you like to quote definitions, here's the definition of potential (from dictionary.com; definitions related to grammar and electricity removed):

adjective
1.
possible, as opposed to actual:
the potential uses of nuclear energy.
2.
capable of being or becoming:
a potential danger to safety.
3.
Grammar. expressing possibility:
the potential subjunctive in Latin; the potential use of can in I can go.
4.
Archaic. potent1 .
noun
5.
possibility; potentiality:
an investment that has little growth potential.
6.
a latent excellence or ability that may or may not be developed.

So you see, @spaulagain, potential merely means POSSIBILITY not a REALITY.

It doesn't matter how loud you shout, universal apps are may make development on Windows more attractive, but there is no certainty about it. You hate us expressing our concerns about universal apps, and will come out with your usual "So what you're saying is Microsoft should just give up" line as it's a logical next step. Total bullsh!t. And total sophistry on your part.

Great, you love universal apps. So develop some for us instead of just stabbing away at the keyboard attempting to belittle anyone who dares to have an opinion different from your own.

 

[EBUK]

I knew you would say this.

Basically what you are saying is...
1. No one is using PC anymore, or if they are, a lot less
2. Everyone is on Android/iPhone for mobile market
3. Universal apps are worthless because MS doesn't dominate the mobile market (yet)
4. Developers will refuse to put 5% more effort in to reach all of Microsoft's devices

Ohh, there you go again, putting words into peoples mouths.

1. He never said noone is using PCs any more, or using them a lot let. He said market share was small in comparison to other devices. That doesn't mean the market has shrunk, rather the market for those other devices has grown and is now greater than the market for PCs.

2. How does it follow that a smaller market share for PCs means everything is on Android / iOS?

3. Where does he say Universal apps are worthless?

4. Classic sophistry from you yet again. Tell, you self-proclaimed mouthpiece for all developers, which developers are we trying to attract? As ffar as I can see, we're crying out for Android and iOS developers to start producing apps (universal apps) for Windows. Are you seriously suggesting that those developers need only put in 5% more effort to develop for our platform?

I reiterate: it's OK to have doubts. People aren't developing the new universal apps yet - the SDK haven't even been released as far as I know, so we have no idea of how much potential exists. All we know is Microsoft's intention.

I await you next bitchslap....

 

[spaulagain]

Ohh, there you go again, putting words into peoples mouths.

1. He never said noone is using PCs any more, or using them a lot let. He said market share was small in comparison to other devices. That doesn't mean the market has shrunk, rather the market for those other devices has grown and is now greater than the market for PCs.

2. How does it follow that a smaller market share for PCs means everything is on Android / iOS?

3. Where does he say Universal apps are worthless?

4. Classic sophistry from you yet again. Tell, you self-proclaimed mouthpiece for all developers, which developers are we trying to attract? As ffar as I can see, we're crying out for Android and iOS developers to start producing apps (universal apps) for Windows. Are you seriously suggesting that those developers need only put in 5% more effort to develop for our platform?

I reiterate: it's OK to have doubts. People aren't developing the new universal apps yet - the SDK haven't even been released as far as I know, so we have no idea of how much potential exists. All we know is Microsoft's intention.

I await you next bitchslap....

^If you read through his posts, that's exactly what he's implying. If not, then his posts are completely random and illogical.

And there you go again using words incorrectly. Nothing about my arguments are false or deceiving. If anything, that's what you are doing. My arguments are simply following logical conclusions based on what we know now, what Microsoft has shown evidence of, where the market is heading, and just plain common sense.

I'm not speaking for all developers, I'm simply providing examples and reasons why Universal apps are a good solution and will be the long term environment for developers. And I'm not the only developer in this thread stating these things.

I'm done discussing this with you because despite your claim to see the potential, you've gone through and argued against every reason myself and others have provided to support the potential.

I've never said that any of this is guaranteed, I've said that if it doesn't work, then Microsoft/Windows platform is dead in the long term. They simply can't compete with their current situation. I think everyone including Microsoft understands this. There is no good way to mold existing iOS/Android apps to Windows, or Win32 to mobile without some refactor in a new environment. That's why I've consistently said that Universal apps are the only way for this to keep going. Sticking with legacy Win32 is a dead end.

 

[tiziano27]

That is just... smh

Not even going to respond further to that one. You must be joking. Don't quit your day job. Comedy isn't your thing.

Tough audience tonight.

Microsoft waited years waiting on the adoption of Windows fully while struggling with competition in the DOS arena. Competition that they eventually crushed with the slow adoption of Windows. If you have followed Microsoft's finances, business moves, profits, etc. over the years, along with that of their competitions, then you would know that they will have no problem waiting this out. Giving in with Android apps would kill the platform, because people would then have no reason to choose WP over Android, because security holes would have to be introduced to make it happen. Not going to happen.

Yes, Microsoft is interested in Android, but for 2 reasons. They want to sell software to users and they want to help wrestle control of Android away from Google, which will lessen Android as a threat overall. Search for Microsoft's buy-in of Cyanogen and the new partnership there, and how Cyanogen has stated their goal is to take control of Android away from Google. With Microsoft's help, it can be done.

I agree. The adoption of Android apps could kill the platform, unless they do it in a controlled way. I don't know if that is possible. However, if WP dies, because of Android apps or because of market conditions, Microsoft can always adopt Android as their mobile platform.
According to Google, Android was designed from the beginning to become a baseline that any company could use as a foundation to build their own mobile platform and compete against Google, and this is mostly true. Companies like Amazon or the Chinese OEMs used AOSP to enter into the market with a fraction of the cost of building a platform.
Cyanogen's project is interesting, because It could fulfill this ideal of a leveled playing field even more faithfully. If Google actually lose control of Android and OEMs leave the OHA and standardize in Cyanogen, that doesn't change much the situation for WP, but It opens a great opportunity for Microsoft in adopting Android without any disadvantage in relation to Google and the OEMs of the OHA. In that situation the best wins.

Microsoft is working on the cross platform system now. It's not all in place yet, but it will be by mid to late 2016. Has Microsoft announced this? No. I just know how Microsoft works. They just bought into Cyanogen, who has promised to take Android away from Google. With Microsoft's backing, they can do just that. Microsoft's new VS 2015 will allow you to build and compile for Universal Apps as well as build and compile for Android and iOS. Now, while it doesn't yet use the same codebase and APIs for Android and iOS, they are working on just that, so that you can write once and compile for everything.

It will be coming, and then it will be the easiest way to develop if you want to do it for both Android and iOS, and developers who put out apps on both platforms are going to want to get in on that, to reach the biggest market. Guess what? When they do, it will just be one more button push away from a Universal App? Even adding a small market share for the effort of pushing a button will be well worth it, so, yes, it is going to help Apps come to Windows 10 on all devices this way. Think about what that will do for Windows 10 phones, because app-gap will no longer exist.

Yes, that would be nice, but I don't believe in prophets, sorry. Besides, this would work mostly for enterprise software, not so much for the consumer market, at least not for the apps that really make the difference.

 

[spaulagain]

^Agreed.

We are yet to see iOS and Android Universal apps come to fruition. It's clear that's Microsoft's goal, but it's hard to say if they can pull it off. Or if Apple and Google will even let them.

 

[EBUK]

Answer point 4 in full: which developers will only need to put in 5% more effort - the ones we already have, or the ones we need to attract.

Nobody, certainly not me, has said universal apps aren't a good idea. We just doubt that they will give developers - the Android and iOS ones we must attract - what they need to develop for our platform when W10 is released. We don't want MSFT to release half-baked development tools which are just going to turn away potential developers.

You seem to fail to see that many of us who express doubt love Windows (Phone) and care so much for it. I'm continuing to by Windows Phones, and upgrading my PCs to Windows 8.1 because I do see the potential in W10. Perhaps its my impatience with MSFT, and my desire for us to have the best, most attractive platform, that comes across as negative. Not much I can do about that.

If we can attract devs from competing platforms to develop for us, that would be great, but I strongly believe that for them to be attracted, they have to have the stable, fully featured development tools available several months before W10 hits the streets. Half-baked development tools won't do the trick.

 

[EBUK]

^Agreed.

We are yet to see iOS and Android Universal apps come to fruition. It's clear that's Microsoft's goal, but it's hard to say if they can pull it off. Or if Apple and Google will even let them.

You've just expressed my doubts perfectly. How come you're not beating yourself up?! :grin:

 

[spaulagain]

You've just expressed my doubts perfectly. How come you're not beating yourself up?! :grin:

Because I've been talking about Win32 app developers for the past 2-3 pages.

My doubts are with iOS amd Android developers, not Win32 developers. Most of this discussion has sprung from Mike Gibson's arguments that Win32 devs will not go WinRT. My whole argument (and rhapdogs) is that it will get Win32 devs.

iOS and Android developers are still up in the air. But I believe Microsoft is making a strong effort to entice them with the Universal app SDK in the next couple years. Brand apps for iOS and Android will probably make it over to Windows because the market share should get there.

But independent iOS and Android devs may not. And some of them will probably refuse to build for Windows out of angst. The Instagram CEO was strongly against Microsoft. Wasn't till Facebook bought them that even made an app.

 

[leo74]

If we can attract devs from competing platforms to develop for us, that would be great, but I strongly believe that for them to be attracted, they have to have the stable, fully featured development tools available several months before W10 hits the streets. Half-baked development tools won't do the trick.

On this I am in full agreement. Having developer tools available in advance would be a huge benefit.
From my point of view, those things need to happen to make Win 10 attractive for more developers (the ones like me who are all in on the platform don't really count, since we follow every piece of new information religiously anyway):

- Provide education to potential new Windows developers
The best tools are useless if you don't clearly understand the platform and what you can do with it.

- Provide developer tools which can take full advantage of the new platform ahead of the Win 10 launch.
I want to start building to the fullest capacity of Win 10 now, not be limited until features are added in the future

- Get a few big names on board to showcase how they use the universal app capabilities.
I know many developers who are at least eyeing with developing for Windows, but are just not seeing the possibilities. The dominant sentiment is still that developing for Windows means being "limited".

For what I do, Windows 10 is big and I already have customers asking me about it and what options that could open up for them.
There is no way to predict how successful Windows 10 will be at the end, but from what I have seen so far, it can be a game changer at least in the corporate environment and I am willing to bet a good portion of my business on it.

 

[rhapdog]

Just a bit more of history, as food for thought. (I'm immensely enjoying our discussion, by the way. Nice to discuss without name calling and still be able to be respectful of one another.)

Windows never really was fully adopted by power programs until Windows 98 came out, and they showed how stable it could be, and they showed that power programs could be handled so well with it without having to implement your own graphics drivers for every non-standard graphics card on the market. Windows took care of that. People doubted that the Windows API could be as fast as a DOS program, and when a few high-end graphics intensive games came to the platform, everything started to change. I suppose if a game like Tomb Raider 2013 came to WinRT, and WinRT handled it as well as the Win Desktop, then it would convince a lot more people of the capabilities, much like when Tomb Raider initially came to Windows and surprised a lot of people with what Windows could do. I use Tomb Raider 2013 for the modern example, because it was known for many years as the one to push the envelope of what could be done, and when it came to Windows the first time, people were truly impressed with what Windows could do. I remember it was after that release that I actually started to use Windows more full time and stopped doing so much in DOS.

There are times I will still use the DOS shell or Power Shell when I need to do something nothing else can do, but only to make a change within Windows by hacking and tweaking where nothing else will work. However, that occasion has fallen to practically nil, except I have a WiFi Adhoc that starts and stops by running a batch file as administrator. I wish that was something that could be done inside the Windows interface, but Microsoft has never fully implemented all the capabilities within the GUI.

Yeah, I've gotten into an off-topic rant. Sorry. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that when WinRT is demonstrated as a viable alternative for power programs and high-end games, it will begin to get more adoption. I'm not saying it will get the adoption by having the capability, it must be demonstrated and shown-off.

Rhapdog
AKA: Master of the inordinately long post.

 

[EBUK]

My doubts are with iOS amd Android developers

So you and I share the same doubts.

It's not existing Windows developers we need to attract to make out platform strong, it's the 'others'. Hence why I remain to be convinced that Universal Apps will serve us well.

 

[rhapdog]

So you and I share the same doubts.

It's not existing Windows developers we need to attract to make out platform strong, it's the 'others'. Hence why I remain to be convinced that Universal Apps will serve us well.

It will be a "wait and see" type of thing for many. Just don't lose sleep over it, don't worry about it. It's still a good phone and platform, and it will be there for at least several years before Microsoft makes a decision to bail or not. I think Microsoft is more likely to go bankrupt trying than to quit trying, though, and THAT will take a very, very long time to happen.

In other words, there is no sense worrying over a situation that "may" turn out just fine. Not knowing about the future is part of life. Just enjoy it as you go, and you'll be less likely to need a therapist.

If none of us had doubts about the future of anything, then we'd all be God. That wouldn't work out well, would it?

 

[EBUK]

People doubted that the Windows API could be as fast as a DOS program, and when a few high-end graphics intensive games came to the platform, everything started to change

Hm, something here sound quite right. Were the DOS and Windows equivalent programs running on identical hardware? From what I remember, Windows needed a much higher specified machine than DOS did.

I'm sure that given a powerful enough machine, Windows (at that time) could be as fast as DOS.

 

[EBUK]

Just don't lose sleep over it, don't worry about it.

I worry (a little), but don't lose sleep about it. I've only been with Windows Phone for a few months, and regardless of the dearth of apps that bothers many, I've become convinced that the platform could have a great future is MSFT gets it right this time.

I'm not bailing anytime soon. I have two Lumia 735s that are going to be employed until either they or Windows Phone dies. If universal apps prove to be a magnet to developers (especially those on the 'dark sides') than I have no doubt that Window Phone has a very bright future ahead.

 

[Joseph Avena]

Agree, the biggest down fall for the Windows Phone plateform is the "App Gap", not just social media and music and games but every day useful apps by companies. Simple example are internet thermostats, Nest, Honeywell etc. they have iOS and Andriod apps but no WP apps. Car apps, my wife has a Santa Fe with BlueLink, apps for iOS and Andriod no WP. When you get anything you always see the Apple and Andriod Apps avalable logos, you never see and Windows Phone Logo, that is why the WP is failing to get traction, period. MS should invest time and money to make sure "revelant" apps are also in the store, i.e. Banking, Automotive, Brokerage, fitness, shopping etc.

 

[rhapdog]

Hm, something here sound quite right. Were the DOS and Windows equivalent programs running on identical hardware? From what I remember, Windows needed a much higher specified machine than DOS did.

I'm sure that given a powerful enough machine, Windows (at that time) could be as fast as DOS.

It wasn't until Windows 98 that Windows Programs could be as productive or more so than their DOS counterpart.

AutoCAD r12 had both DOS and Windows versions, with identical capabilities/features. I never could tell the difference in performance between the 2, (yes, I used them both) except I couldn't get the plotter driver to work properly under DOS, and it worked well under Windows. The DOS version would only support actual "plotters" that used the "pen draw" method, and didn't support laser or ink jet printers very well at all, IIRC.

 

[Bjorn Radtke]

Very true. I doubt the Xbox app will be universal. Else people would start the Xbox app on the Xbox One.

 

[EBUK]

Ah, those good old DOS days!

From what I remember, WordPerfect (also a WP!) had the best support for printers and allowed you to define your own. The Windows version of WordPerfect was never a match for the DOS version, and it still isn't. The DOS version has some superb features that were never migrated over to the Windows version. (MSWord remains inferior to the Windows version of WP in many, many ways, but that's another story from the days when MS has little problem wiping out the competition...)

Anyway, let's just hope that MS delivers with W10, and once again becomes a leader across all platforms.

 

[dkediger]

I was going to mention DOS WordPerfect, Word, and Windows as it is a very distant analogy for the Universal App situation.

WordPerfect in the DOS days just ate Word's lunch in large part for its printer support. The WordPerfect people wrote drivers for every printer under the sun - which you had to do in those days for anything beyond generic line printer type output. The apps had to build in support for peripheral hardware.

Microsoft changed that with Windows. Peripheral OEMs provider a single driver for Windows, with Windows doing the heavy lifting. It took some time, but it did negate one of WordPerfect's biggest strengths. The Office team knowing the certainty that Windows would be the only future platform also played into Word's ascendance - whereas the WordPerfect people split their development between platforms.