If I disable most of Google's privacy settings on Android - is the big G still spying?
- Thread starter N1cks
- Start date
If you use android then definitely alot of information is being sent to google without the user's (obvious) consent. Mainly, Your location (google maps, traffic tracking etc.) Your wifi details (not confirm but alot of claims have been tossed around) Your history (even if you disable the synced history 'features' they use it to fine tune searches and ads) and your voice and video (these are also claims all around the internet, some proven, others not so much). Also, google makes most of its money through advertising (targeted ads) so I guess you better be a bit concerned
If you're using Microsoft's services, you may as well be using Google's. There isn't an important difference between the privacy of each. If anything, Google has seemed less willing to give out info to court orders, whereas Microsoft allegedly gives almost no pushback. The safest place to be is on iOS and macOS, which are famously private and secure, especially if you don't use iCloud for anything you wouldn't want to be made public.
Also check out Telegram Messenger.
Data collection is not spying. Mining the data for exploitable information is. It doesn't matter what the exploitation is, good or bad, it is spying. The user can't control the exploitation so the whole activity is intrusion into privacy. Does that make Google the de facto Big Brother? The scary answer is "who controls Google?" Not owns, controls.
deadonthefloor
Member
Here's the thing.
To me, it's not about what Google does with the data, but what Google's understanding of data can do to you.
Firstly, the data they aggregate makes you a more desirable advertising target to marketers. Today this is fine, and some even find it beneficial.
It could however be used in the future to influence behavior.
Case in Point. There is now a company out there that grew out of Alphabet's x lab (or whatever it was previously under Google), called MoonshotCVE.
The intent of this company is to track video search history on YouTube in order to detect when a would be Islamic State supporter was being radicalized and divert his result sets to de-escalation videos.
While this was intended originally to Counter Violent Extremism (hence the CVE), a certain political candidate had suggested that the program be turned domestically to a certain 'basket of deplorables'.
Now, if we take another look at how AI is changing big data analysis, there is another trend emerging. Some of the AI algorithm research has been done has found that instead of improving the algorithms, the studies done were modifying the behavior of its participants. There was a presentation done at the Microsoft's "Faculty Summit 2017: The Edge of AI" where one of the researchers admitted as much. She also stated that to counter this, all AI related classes at Harvard have now introduced an ethics component to prevent this from happening in the future.
I do not trust a profit driven company to be so ethical. We may come to a point where you impulsively buy products and services because you've been conditioned to want them, unbeknownst to you.
There is a war on for our minds, and I do not want to give the capitalists the ammunition.
To me, it's not about what Google does with the data, but what Google's understanding of data can do to you.
Firstly, the data they aggregate makes you a more desirable advertising target to marketers. Today this is fine, and some even find it beneficial.
It could however be used in the future to influence behavior.
Case in Point. There is now a company out there that grew out of Alphabet's x lab (or whatever it was previously under Google), called MoonshotCVE.
The intent of this company is to track video search history on YouTube in order to detect when a would be Islamic State supporter was being radicalized and divert his result sets to de-escalation videos.
While this was intended originally to Counter Violent Extremism (hence the CVE), a certain political candidate had suggested that the program be turned domestically to a certain 'basket of deplorables'.
Now, if we take another look at how AI is changing big data analysis, there is another trend emerging. Some of the AI algorithm research has been done has found that instead of improving the algorithms, the studies done were modifying the behavior of its participants. There was a presentation done at the Microsoft's "Faculty Summit 2017: The Edge of AI" where one of the researchers admitted as much. She also stated that to counter this, all AI related classes at Harvard have now introduced an ethics component to prevent this from happening in the future.
I do not trust a profit driven company to be so ethical. We may come to a point where you impulsively buy products and services because you've been conditioned to want them, unbeknownst to you.
There is a war on for our minds, and I do not want to give the capitalists the ammunition.
RHoudek2
New member
I think the reason to distrust Google more than MS or Apple is because Google is a Data/Advertising company, whereas MS and Apple are Software/Hardware companies.
For me PERSONALLY, I stopped trusting Google when they or Alphabet started buying military grade robotics companies like Boston Dynamic.
dlalonde
New member
Honestly, you should use an Android powered phone with the expectation that Google snoops on everything. Every single thing. That's the way I do it. You can't really opt out of Google. You can turn a bunch of toggles off but that garantees nothing. You can be certain that if they're taking data they don't want you to turn off or they don't want you to know they take, there won't be a toggle for it.
I've come to accept that some privacy has to be sacrificed in order to get good products today. It sucks but the only way to opt out is to not use online services. Even then, governments or places like Equifax use online services so you can't escape it completely.
Since Nadella took the reins, that's also what Microsoft has come to terms with which is why Windows Phone 8/8.1 was more private than Windows 10 Mobile is.
But no matter if you use a product from Google, Apple or Microsoft, the company will snoop on what you do with the product. They all use the information differently but still.
So then the only thing you can do is balance convenience with privacy. Do you really need Google Photos, Google Drive or OneDrive for your pictures? Would you mind if what you put on there gets leaked or used by someone else? No? Then go nuts. Yes? Then buy a good backup hard drive for your pictures to keep them locally.
You can also spread your data around by using different services. Use alternate apps like Tinfoil for Facebook.
But again, if you're using a device, the maker of the said device will probably know what you're doing on it. I trust Google with a lot of things but I use my Android phone like Google is looking over my shoulder.
If you want to be off the grid you can't have a mobile phone. It's really that simple.
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It's not just what Google is doing with the data, Android still remains the most vulnerable and most targeted OS by hackers. It is the weak link in terms of security, corporate data security managers are still very wary of Android. Meanwhile, Windows phone has been deamed "most secure" (and obviously its not a huge target because of low usage volume). I avoid Android in my home, the only exception is my Amazon Fire TV.
Here are a couple of related links:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/android-ios-malware
"According to F-Secure’s State of Cyber Security 2017, 99pc of all malware programs aimed at mobile targets are designed for Android devices."
Android is the most vulnerable platform: Nokia
https://mspoweruser.com/hacker-claims-windows-phone-the-most-secure-smartphone-os/
Here are a couple of related links:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/android-ios-malware
"According to F-Secure’s State of Cyber Security 2017, 99pc of all malware programs aimed at mobile targets are designed for Android devices."
Android is the most vulnerable platform: Nokia
https://mspoweruser.com/hacker-claims-windows-phone-the-most-secure-smartphone-os/
, completely agree with this. Plus Google and Facebook are the big brothers of the internet, its quite insane how far their trackers reach across the web.
Richard Toft
New member
I've been wondering the same thing, as far as I can tell the devices record a lot of data for marketing or other purposes, from other android users it seems that calls and other voice data is also recorded but what the purpose of this is I'm not sure. But I am interested if it is possible to remove all google services from the device.
TechFreak1
Moderator
I do recall seeing alot of network traffic on android phones with everything disabled and no sim card installed and no apps installed.
It was far too high and constant for my liking, however it's a given Googles bread and butter is making the user the product.
Oh, how people laughed when I said Data was the next commodity and companies would make billions without selling a physical product.
To be honest, there is really no getting away from telemetry and analytics.
It will be in your smart appliances and it's already in infotainment systems. So the key point is how do you deal with that?
You either become a tin foil hat hermit, with a tin foil suite or you take the time to read the entire TOS of a product and understand the legal rammifications of using a product.
Or you compromise and you take appropriate precautions and the easiest way to do that is to use a VPN and a adblocker. There are countless ways how a user can be tracked, by running something in full screen can given an indication of what your using as a monitor, from which you can extrapolate if your running laptop or a tv, a simple display etc.
My point is analytics and telemetry is everywhere, including the channels you watch on TV, the adverts you see before you channel surf so you are given "relevant adverts" that pique your interest. The easiest way to verify that, when you subscribe to a cable provider just say you don't want adverts and if the customer rep is savy enough they will tell you - that you can opt out of targetted adverts but you can't remove all adverts (because that would impact profits everywhere down the chain).
It depends how telemetry and analytics are used therefore really it's the context and subtext that truly matters.
It was far too high and constant for my liking, however it's a given Googles bread and butter is making the user the product.
Oh, how people laughed when I said Data was the next commodity and companies would make billions without selling a physical product.
To be honest, there is really no getting away from telemetry and analytics.
It will be in your smart appliances and it's already in infotainment systems. So the key point is how do you deal with that?
You either become a tin foil hat hermit, with a tin foil suite or you take the time to read the entire TOS of a product and understand the legal rammifications of using a product.
Or you compromise and you take appropriate precautions and the easiest way to do that is to use a VPN and a adblocker. There are countless ways how a user can be tracked, by running something in full screen can given an indication of what your using as a monitor, from which you can extrapolate if your running laptop or a tv, a simple display etc.
My point is analytics and telemetry is everywhere, including the channels you watch on TV, the adverts you see before you channel surf so you are given "relevant adverts" that pique your interest. The easiest way to verify that, when you subscribe to a cable provider just say you don't want adverts and if the customer rep is savy enough they will tell you - that you can opt out of targetted adverts but you can't remove all adverts (because that would impact profits everywhere down the chain).
It depends how telemetry and analytics are used therefore really it's the context and subtext that truly matters.
The even bigger issue is the amount of apps with malware in the google play store, there is a new article almost daily about apps in the play store with bank credential stealing malware or Trojan dropper, it never ends as google does a lousy job of vetting their apps before they hit the play store, but that is what you get when an advertising company thinks it is a tech company.
The majority of sec holes are from third party app stores. And hence the reason one should use Google mobile services and not third party ROMs that many people talk about on this forum. Android is targeted just like Microsoft is/was because it owns the market. The fact that Android applications run in thier own VM tells me things are just fine. There is not widespread phones being hacked out there, where are the articles that state people are losing thier banking information on Android?
vEEP pEEP
New member
I agree 100%. The amount of data google collects is staggering, and besides google has already shown itself to be irresponsible with the power it already has by abusing its monopoly.
If you use google services, then google knows your phone calls, texts, location, wifi spots, work place, house, shopping habits, websites you visit, apps you buy, how much time you spend per app, when you're awake, what you search for, what videos you watch...even the content of your phone calls if you use google voice...pretty much every facet of your life. And to take all that information and just sell it to others for a profit is just disgusting.
And just for the record, this data is not anonymous and is hackable. I remember reading articles about how google engineers have been in trouble for doing things like reading emails, going through chat transcriptions and stalking kids.
Edit: As an example for the last paragraph, I looked up the name of one such individual who got caught, his name was 'David Barksdale'
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Microsoft has been pretty aggressive, and has filed lawsuit and lawsuit against the US for privacy laws, alongside Apple and probably Google too. However, in contrast to Microsoft, Google collects significantly more information from many more sources, such as emails (or at least used to) and other information you'd want to be private, whereas Microsoft has drawn a line in the sand and won't ever collect certain data. So while they both collect data, the amount of data collected, the degree to which it's collected, and the way it's used is different for both companies.
As an example, I'm okay with Microsoft knowing my computer specs to diagnose why my computer crashed. I'm not okay with Google knowing the content of my email or what videos I watch so they can be given to advertisers. Yes, both companies cater to marketers to some extent, but google gives them a much more nuanced view.
As for security, google also does a terrible job of securing android yet also loves to publish weaknesses in Windows all the time.
a5cent
New member
This is incorrect. The largest security hole, which is breached thousands of times more often than the next class of security issue, is the user.
Ironically, two of the least secure OSes, Android and Win32, are the ones who gained widespread popularity. Unlike iOS or UWP, neither Win32 nor Android are secure by design and require a slew of tacked on functionality which attempt to make up for their security weaknesses... only somewhat successfully.
When an attack is successful, Android and Win32 also have little to no mechanisms by which to contain the damage. You mentioned Android's dalvik (VM), but that is almost irrelevant in this regard, as security isn't its focus. The Android sandbox is more about protecting the app than it is about protecting the system from apps... that's a completely different approach from iOS or UWP.
My main point is this:
There are differences between these OSes.
Many consumers tend to reduce the issue to "if it's widely targeted it's less secure", likely because (a) that makes sense without us having to understand anything about OS design and security and (b) the lack of attempts is how Apple was able to brainwash people into thinking OSX was secure (about a decade ago?) despite it being one of the least secure OSes out at the time.
If you only hang out at places like mobilenations (strictly consumer oriented and barely technical), you'll rarely see such articles. Most reports are either:
- too complicated and/or not publicly available (publications written by security researchers)
- not spectacular enough, i.e. it doesn't generate enough clicks (e.g. affects only a few hundred people)
- not unique enough, i.e it doesn't generate enough clicks (it happens every day, which means it's commonplace, i.e. it's not news and only of interest to those affected or who are paid to solve the problem)
- not relevant to western media (only affects people with AOSP devices, primarily in Asia or the Ex-Soviet Union).
https://clientsidedetection.com/marcher.html
https://thehackernews.com/2017/08/android-banking-trojan.html
Russia Hacking: Bank Customers Hit By Malware in Android Phones | Fortune
https://blog.vasco.com/application-security/bankbot-android-malware-protection/
The security industry agrees that attacking iOS devices would actually be the more profitable criminal endeavor. The main reason it's much rarer is not because of market-share, but because it's much harder to pull off.
I'm bailing out again at this point since security and privacy are only tangentially related, so it's a bit off topic.
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Sorry, but even the article you posted confirms that the third party app stores are the lost vulnerable. Of course users are the first firewall, we agree on that.
Just one more thing, I agree Android is more vulnerable to hacking. It's a semi open platform. My point is that if you go through the official Google Play store you will be protected for the most part. Nothing is obviously hack proof. My point about VM is that apps are contained which from what I understand makes it almost impossible for hackers to break in. You points are very well taken.
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