Legacy PHones no Apollo Update, will get 7.8 update

[oldgaius]

Here is one example of MS admitting they COULD have brought WP8 to current devices.

"When you pull that Lumia out of your pocket after you’ve received that 7.8 update, it will look and feel the same as a Windows Phone 8 device,” claims Sullivan. “Because you don’t have a multicore chip and don’t have some of these other elements, it didn’t make sense for us to make those investments for devices that couldn’t really exploit them.”

This came from a Verge article. There was at least one other that I will try to find when I get home from the airport.

Sent from my PI86100 using Board Express

Yes. Some people seem to be claiming that there are hardware limitations... but in fact Microsoft are saying that while it's possible, the cost far outweighs the benefit. It's a business/financial decision which very few companies would differ from. I'm fine with it, though I just wish some people would stop the disingenuous blather about hardware.

I look forward to hearing more about 7.8 and the steps Microsoft will take to keep developer support. Rowi developers have already said they will continue supporting 7.8 alongside 8, and I imagine other popular apps will be a similar affair.

 

[12Danny123]

Yes. Some people seem to be claiming that there are hardware limitations... but in fact Microsoft are saying that while it's possible, the cost far outweighs the benefit. It's a business/financial decision which very few companies would differ from. I'm fine with it, though I just wish some people would stop the disingenuous blather about hardware.

I look forward to hearing more about 7.8 and the steps Microsoft will take to keep developer support. Rowi developers have already said they will continue supporting 7.8 alongside 8, and I imagine other popular apps will be a similar affair.

I agree. I think MS will make popular app makers to make wp7.8 and wp8 apps......By force . this would help them make more money than just sticking to wp8

 

[mjvw7beta]

it would a good move by MS to bring the improved mapping to us beta testers

 

[12Danny123]

it would a good move by MS to bring the improved mapping to us beta testers

Hey mate. They would likely bring the software side of things. like the mapping system and close skype integration

 

[HeyCori]

Yes. Some people seem to be claiming that there are hardware limitations... but in fact Microsoft are saying that while it's possible, the cost far outweighs the benefit. It's a business/financial decision which very few companies would differ from. I'm fine with it, though I just wish some people would stop the disingenuous blather about hardware.

I look forward to hearing more about 7.8 and the steps Microsoft will take to keep developer support. Rowi developers have already said they will continue supporting 7.8 alongside 8, and I imagine other popular apps will be a similar affair.

I would like to point out that the current Adreno CPUs don't support DirectX11, let alone the new kernel. And of course they're woefully underpowered due to not being dual core or having an advanced GPU.

What that means is that Microsoft would have to dramatically scale back Windows Phone 8 to get it to run on current devices. To be clear, I don't mean dramatically as in "lower the screen resolution." You gotta understand that stuff like DirectX has hardware requirements. You can't slap DirectX on old hardware and expect it to run good (or run at all).

When the hardware for current devices was released (2011) they were old by old standards. There's no way around that. You can try putting makeup on a pig but it's still a pig. What that means is that you can try pimping out old hardware but it's still old hardware. If Microsoft actually tried to put WP8 on current devices it would be so gimped that all you're left with is --- 7.8.

Sorry, but no matter how you try to spin it, a severely gimped upgrade that's missing a ton of features isn't really Windows Phone 8. But you can call it WP8 if that makes you feel better.

 

[canesfan625]

Tell me ONE reason why Nokia in the crisis the company is in right now would "refuse" this? Why would the refuse to let their Lumia 900 and 800 be future proof and continue to sell well until or even after WP8 will be released? Why would they refuse to make their customers happy and loyal? Techies who wants the latest hardware would upgrade to a WP8 anyway.

Nokia would have had to start the process about a year ago. There is a very big reason right there. Outside of the drama queens on here 7.8 isn't going to effect loyalty and all that malarkey as much as people want you to think.

 

[petersun21]

I would like to point out that the current Adreno CPUs don't support DirectX11, let alone the new kernel. And of course they're woefully underpowered due to not being dual core or having an advanced GPU.

What that means is that Microsoft would have to dramatically scale back Windows Phone 8 to get it to run on current devices. To be clear, I don't mean dramatically as in "lower the screen resolution." You gotta understand that stuff like DirectX has hardware requirements. You can't slap DirectX on old hardware and expect it to run good (or run at all).

When the hardware for current devices was released (2011) they were old by old standards. There's no way around that. You can try putting makeup on a pig but it's still a pig. What that means is that you can try pimping out old hardware but it's still old hardware. If Microsoft actually tried to put WP8 on current devices it would be so gimped that all you're left with is --- 7.8.

Sorry, but no matter how you try to spin it, a severely gimped upgrade that's missing a ton of features isn't really Windows Phone 8. But you can call it WP8 if that makes you feel better.

So wp8 code does not run efficiently. IOS 5.1.1 runs on a 600MHZ single core and WP8 does not run on a 1.5GHZ single core. Is that what you are saying?

 

[rockstarzzz]

So wp8 code does not run efficiently. IOS 5.1.1 runs on a 600MHZ single core and WP8 does not run on a 1.5GHZ single core. Is that what you are saying?

Educate me: Is iOS 5.1.1 the same OS that runs on iPad and MacBook Air and iPhones?

 

[HeyCori]

So wp8 code does not run efficiently. IOS 5.1.1 runs on a 600MHZ single core and WP8 does not run on a 1.5GHZ single core. Is that what you are saying?

Do you realize that 3GS owners were complaining about poor performance when they upgraded to iOS4 (let alone 5)? Plus we're talking about more than just CPU performance, you also have to factor in GPU capabilities as well. There's much more going on behind the scenes than just a handful of GHz.

 

[rockstarzzz]

excellent post here

Stumbled upon an excellent post on XDA:

For those who feel cheated, lost, stuffed, raped and what not because they think 100,000 apps are not enough - please read this.

xda-developers - View Single Post - Why I think WP7 users are worrying about nothing in terms of new apps neglect

 

[HeyCori]

Stumbled upon an excellent post on XDA:

For those who feel cheated, lost, stuffed, raped and what not because they think 100,000 apps are not enough - please read this.

xda-developers - View Single Post - Why I think WP7 users are worrying about nothing in terms of new apps neglect

"So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?"

Exactly. We're fortunate that we have a software company like Microsoft that has made it easy for developers to move from WP7.8 > WP8 > Win8. A developer can make an app for 7.8 and get it running smoothly on WP8 and Win8 with very little effort.

I understand the frustration, people don't want the longevity of their 7.8 device to rest in the hands of developers because a developer can still choose to not develop for 7.8 at all.

But guess what? In this very thread we had a developer say that he still programs for Gingerbread. For those who don't remember, Gingerbread came out in 2010. It's approaching two years old and is still being supported. That's because a good dev team knows that users are more important --- and because they probably want to make money.

The biggest impact this will have on WP is game development. And yes, I realize some people would rather play a gimped version of a game than not play it at all. Then again, there's also this...

Speed Test infinity Blade II: iPhone 3GS, 4 & iPad 2 - Youtube

That's right, Infinity Blade II on the 3GS takes almost 2 minutes to load. Apple can get away with that because of their massive following and market share. But Windows Phone is struggling and Microsoft does not need a(nother) black eye like being known as the platform where games take 2 minutes to load.

 

[mb-dape]

A funny thing about this:

There was endless discussions about the possibility to upgrade WP7.X to WP8. Many people back then told everyone to shut up because MS would never let the early adopters and most faithful users down. It would be suicide, the had done it once and never again. Etc. etc. Of course the current phones were future-proof and would get WP8.

Many of them is the same people that now tell everyone they were stupid, how could anyone ever think that our phones would get WP8? Its a new core! It needs new drivers! It needs better GPU! How could anyone not understand that it wouldnt work on current phones?!

Actually we dont know THAT much more about WP8 in a low level perspective now, that we didnt know before. We knew about the new kernel, we knew about native code and better graphics and all the new hardware it will support.

Still it was a hot discussion back then, many different thoughts and opinions with no clear answer.

But I can see know that there actually were a lot of hardware/software experts out there who knew it would be impossible. Its easy to be a whiz when you know the answer...

 

[SnailUK]

Very interesting debate going on here. Echo's every other website i've been on.

Interestingly the specs of the couple of WP8 devices i've seen aren't very different to the current breed of WP7 devices, with the exception of the fact they are multi-core.

It does seem from reading all the articles, that WP8 is a proper multi-tasking OS, not half hearted like WP7. As such, i can completely understand why WP8 on single core WP7 devices just won't work, the phone will run like a slug in syrup.

I can also understand why Microsoft are only focussed on the future, so WP7 updates will likely be few and far between in future.

I'd be very supprised if Microsoft open-sourced the OS, but surely they can license the source to Nokia/HTC/Samsung, etc. Therefore they can keep developing WP7, and target it at the cheaper end of the market, and keep it as a stepping stone for WP8.

Microsoft have been very vocal about the fact anything written for WP7 will work on WP8 and W8, so why couldn't they have written some of the WP8 additions, in a way that would allow them to run on WP7/WP8/W8?

Stuff like IE10, maps, etc surely should be able to run on WP7. In app payments, why does that require multi-core? Remote management tools and company hubs should work on WP7. If Microsoft set the example of how to write WP7/8 apps, people will follow.

 

[mb-dape]

But guess what? In this very thread we had a developer say that he still programs for Gingerbread. For those who don't remember, Gingerbread came out in 2010. It's approaching two years old and is still being supported. That's because a good dev team knows that users are more important --- and because they probably want to make money.

Of course, the devs want to release apps for the users, and the money are not that important. I guess thats why they are so kind against those poor Gingerbread users, being only above 200 million users it cant be easy to attract developers. /IRONY

 

[petersun21]

MS is going it again

Do you realize that 3GS owners were complaining about poor performance when they upgraded to iOS4 (let alone 5)? Plus we're talking about more than just CPU performance, you also have to factor in GPU capabilities as well. There's much more going on behind the scenes than just a handful of GHz.

More CPU, more memory, the slower it runs.... Don't you think that the choices should be customers' Running slow apps or having more features? iPhone 3GS is a product of 3 years ago. My htc titan is just 6 months old. 600Mhz vs. 1.5. Pretty amazed people are still trying to defend microsoft.

 

[mb-dape]

The biggest impact this will have on WP is game development. And yes, I realize some people would rather play a gimped version of a game than not play it at all. Then again, there's also this...

Speed Test infinity Blade II: iPhone 3GS, 4 & iPad 2 - Youtube

That's right, Infinity Blade II on the 3GS takes almost 2 minutes to load. Apple can get away with that because of their massive following and market share. But Windows Phone is struggling and Microsoft does not need a(nother) black eye like being known as the platform where games take 2 minutes to load.

Please, not another Android/iPhone comparsion. Your earlier ones didnt made sense and this one does not either.

A new game runs like crap on a phone that was released a couple of years ago. Ok, big news?

Apple does not need to "get away" with anything. People understand and accept that they cant take a phone from 2009 and expect it to play new games.

But what I dont think people understand is why their 700-900 USD WP phone that was released in May 2012 cant play the games in November 2012 or get the new OS ugrade with more powerful apps etc.

Your "new phone old hardware" argument is way too weak.

Ask a iPhone buyer or a Android buyer, how many do you think knows the CPU speed, core number or SOC model of their phone? Or GPU unit? RAM? And out of them, how many do you think knows if that is good or bad? New or old?

So why on earth do you expect WP buyer to know that the Nokia Lumia 900 that was released in my country weeks ago and costs about 800 USD is, in your thinking, a piece from the stoneage?

 

[SnailUK]

But what I dont think people understand is why their 700-900 USD WP phone that was released in May 2012 cant play the games in November 2012 or get the new OS ugrade with more powerful apps etc.

Why do people need to understand it?

The way i see it, Microsoft had 4 choices.

1) Cripple WP8, so as not to annoy WP7 owners.
2) Deliver WP8 to WP7 devices and turn them from Rockets to Snails
3) Drop WP7, and work on making WP8 the best it can be.
4) Work in parallel on WP7 & WP8.

The first 3 will all end up annoying people in the long run, 1 will cripple the platform, which is the worst possible soultion. You could offer 2, but you'll have just as much moaning, as you will with 3, just delayed by a little bit.

4 is probably the best option, but it wastes money (where i'm sure WP7/8 are still just a money pit for Microsoft), but also causes issues, because everything gets harder and harder the more the platforms diverge. WP7 owners are never going to be happy, because they are always the poor cousin of WP8.

There isn't a right answer. Every option is wrong for the consumer, or Microsoft, maybe both.

 

[HeyCori]

Please, not another Android/iPhone comparsion. Your earlier ones didnt made sense and this one does not either.

A new game runs like crap on a phone that was released a couple of years ago. Ok, big news?

Apple does not need to "get away" with anything. People understand and accept that they cant take a phone from 2009 and expect it to play new games.

But what I dont think people understand is why their 700-900 USD WP phone that was released in May 2012 cant play the games in November 2012 or get the new OS ugrade with more powerful apps etc.

Your "new phone old hardware" argument is way too weak.

Ask a iPhone buyer or a Android buyer, how many do you think knows the CPU speed, core number or SOC model of their phone? Or GPU unit? RAM? And out of them, how many do you think knows if that is good or bad? New or old?

So why on earth do you expect WP buyer to know that the Nokia Lumia 900 that was released in my country weeks ago and costs about 800 USD is, in your thinking, a piece from the stoneage?

My arguments make total sense but you're so hurt by Microsoft's decision that you're refusing to listen to reasoning of any kind. I'm not here to mitigate your emotions, only explain the fallacy in your logic. I've already told you that I understand your frustration and explained what would happen if Microsoft tried to bring everything that is WP8 to current devices. Some are happy with the scaled back 7.8, others aren't. I can't fix that. Nor will your mishmash of incoherent paragraphs (FYI: there are pretty massive holes in your argument above). I could point those out, again, but it's clear you're not listening. We've already explained the app situation and we've explained why the 900 won't magically become a paperweight come fall. Epic could now easily port Infinity Blade II to 7.8 devices and very quickly have it running on WP8 and Win8. That ensures a good experience across 3 devices, but that doesn't seem to matter to you. You'd rather whine, and b*tch, and moan. Sorry, I'm not playing that game. If you're afraid that your 900 is going to become an overnight paperweight, then yes, sell it. Me? I'm going to continue enjoying new apps and my software update. I'm going to put faith in developers and trust that they're not completely ********.

 

[soulzero]

I suspect that it was Microsoft’s original plan to attempt to bring WP8 to current WP7.5 devices. But while exploring the different methods of how to migrate from the current CE kernel to the newer W8 Kernel, it most likely became more and more apparent how complex the task would be for end users to flash the upgrade to current devices with out bricking the device. I believe Microsoft made the right choice in giving current devices the 7.8 update and making WP8 for new devices going forward. I also believe that the 7.8 update will be no small slouch of an update. As many others have stated before it will probly contain most of the new software features that WP8 has sans the obvious hardware limits of NFC, Multi-Core, or Native Code Apps Etc…

 

[fogel35]

My arguments make total sense but you're so hurt by Microsoft's decision that you're refusing to listen to reasoning of any kind. I'm not here to mitigate your emotions, only explain the fallacy in your logic. I've already told you that I understand your frustration and explained what would happen if Microsoft tried to bring everything that is WP8 to current devices. Some are happy with the scaled back 7.8, others aren't. I can't fix that. Nor will your mishmash of incoherent paragraphs (FYI: there are pretty massive holes in your argument above). I could point those out, again, but it's clear you're not listening. We've already explained the app situation and we've explained why the 900 won't magically become a paperweight come fall. Epic could now easily port Infinity Blade II to 7.8 devices and very quickly have it running on WP8 and Win8. That ensures a good experience across 3 devices, but that doesn't seem to matter to you. You'd rather whine, and b*tch, and moan. Sorry, I'm not playing that game. If you're afraid that your 900 is going to become an overnight paperweight, then yes, sell it. Me? I'm going to continue enjoying new apps and my software update. I'm going to put faith in developers and trust that they're not completely ********.

I am just floored that the NT kernel can't run on 18 month old SoC. Just blows my mind. I just know that I would not trust Microsoft to keep users on the same versions in the future. They are still going to be behind and the faith I have in their engineers is severely shaken.