Microsoft's wind-down of its phone business "expected to be completed by end of June!"

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

Seems simple to me, with the new devices it will run windows 10 mobile for appearance. Windows on arm for continuum, so use that feature and you get full windows on the desktop experience. That would surely be the way to go and how I think they will go. To abandon continuum which is what a5cent is suggesting for only w10arm is contrary to virtually everything we have had from Satya on mobile (which isn't much granted). That's the way I see it going, win32 apps surely not running in a 5 inch screen that would be horrid! But using continuum that 5 inch arm device could easily be powering full windows 10 on another device.

That's how I imagine they would want to take this, that is a truly cellular pc in my opinion, to dismiss the mobile element of that equation would be a foolish move on microsofts part.

Meh, I mean something like a browser can surely be made to scale easily, running full win32. It's literally just a matter of re-arranging a little at the top and bottom for smaller screens. Certainly web apps run via html5 can scale. Fruity loops scales for a tablet, that's a win32.

I've seen games that are win32 run on small screens play fine.

I don't personally see win32 as fundamentally unscalable.

I see no reason why say, adobe illustrator, fruity loops, or movie editing or other power win32 software on windows can't be converted to scalable, and run on windows on arm on a smaller screen.

They don't specifically have to be coded as UWAs if mobile can run win32. Already programs can be made to run on both console and desktop/tablet without being coded as anything but win32. They can include touch without being anything but win32. Witcher 3, and several other win32 games are touch compatible. Extend that to mobile, and like with tablets, there is then motive to include touch and scaling.

Obviously some apps will always be appropriate for certain screen sizes. An app written specifically for a watch, might not have been coded to scale for a fifty inch screen and vice versa, but by and large the goal is to move everyone towards scaling.

Having apps that only work on small screens or big screens means you can never get real deep benefit out of simple things like miracast, VR, streaming things to your smaller device, and other convertible products.

Sure all those legacy apps might not scale well on a small screen. But that doesn't stop currently revising software and new released from being both win32 and touch friendly on a small screen. For some things their might be motive to do that rather than write UWPs. Such as games. Or pre-existing code that is harder to convert.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

1)


I suspect what you wanted to say is that W10oA will include some parts of W10M's UI, even that would be technically incorrect though. W10oA will just include some of the apps that currently ship as part of W10M, like the dialer app. That's all. Everything else that W10oA requires from W10M is already part of W10 and will be inherited by W10oA from there.

Composable shell, which will most likely come with redstone 3 IMO, will give different UIs based on form factor. The mobile ui on smaller screens, a tablet ui, and a full desktop ui. This cshell will be the same across all versions of windows, windows 10 mobile included - making the continuum mode on mobile, essentially the same as full desktop windows.

Thusly there will be no "mobile ui" or 'desktop ui" or indeed 'console ui" just what the device is currently adaptively displaying (I suspect the console part will be also used to make desktops more entertainment focused, more of an optional switch - and maybe vice versa, turning your console into more of a pc)

The concept of onecore, and cshell is one basic OS, across different hardware, with a shell that adapts to circumstances. Much like the UWAs are supposed to run across hardware, and adapt to circumstances (ideally, they don't always do it)

This is the general drift (its a fan made concept, but this is basically the idea):

https://youtu.be/ZLMyaK1BPiU

We might be awhile off the hardware and OS convergence fully driving that software convergence in terms of UWA, but the fruits show soon, so hopefully after windows cloud, scorpio, cshell and windows on arm are all released this year, we will see devs, coming over to the notion of onecore, cshell, and the unified platform across devices (and thus scaling, and windows store)

 

[a5cent]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

But yeah it does seem to be _scaling_ that's missing from this conversation I agree. The shell, the apps, all need to scale, as much as possible. The idea is convergence, running your big screen apps on a little screen, and vice versa, flexibility, so your OS can simply adapt to its input and output hardware.

Okay. When software engineers discuss the issue of scaling they are rarely referring to the UI. None of my previous mentions of the term "scale" were about the UI either.

The UI is a pretty small part of the entire OS-pie. At least from a technical point of view the UI is also rather inconsequential. It can be thrown away and reworked at anytime. It's just the paint. That's not true at all for the technically more relevant parts below the surface. Those are the parts software engineers worry more about when it comes to software's ability to scale.

While a UI can scale, like many Andriod apps do when they are run on a tablet (which usually looks ugly and overblown), what the UWP is actually about is UI re-composition. It provides a standardized way for developers to recompose a UI on different display sizes rather than just scaling it.

Scalability typically refers to software's ability to adapt to different hardware configurations and/or workloads. That could be a function of the number of concurrent users, or the available hardware (for example, games must scale their graphics output based on the available GPU capabilities). If the Win32 software you installed was designed to run 24/7, that's what it will do. There is no concept of a background task that runs only some of the time in the interest of saving power. W10M supports that and many many more concepts specific to mobile applications. Win32 does not mandate that developers consider such issues, so Win32 software almost never scales down to mobile hardware.

The UI is obviously important to consumers, as that is how most people experience an OS. It's just not at all what I was talking about. CShell is certainly a good thing. It's just not relevant to the point I was making. I'd also prefer not to get into that here as there are already more than enough open issues to discuss without disagreeing on CShell related stuff too. ;-)

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

For an example of a win32 app, that scales beautifully on a small tablet, is touch friendly, and is win32 but not a UWP app, but is on the windows store:

Kodi.

Now, should this app be hard to also scale for phone? not really. And a game that would play fine on a phablet but is win32 - trine 2.

If you looked under the app collection "powerful PC software", you'll find a number of project centennial conversions. These are not what we think of as 'uwps', but they do run across devices - just not ones that can't run win32 (ie they _can_ be made to run on console and PC, such as the game "rise of the tomb raider" and some of the xbox live titles, although often that aren't designed to do so).

I've been calling these 'UWAs' and that might be it, but I am not actually sure. They are win32s that act partly like traditional uwps.

Sure, many of the current ones are too busy visually to be phone apps, but that's only because the hardware doesn't exist.

When someone might write fruity loops to scale on a tablet, or write trine 2 to have touch interface, there simply is no product to write a win32 on that scales or works with phone.

No one codes for hardware that doesn't exist.

But with windows on arm, if someone primarily writes some win32 code for desktop, and then decides to push it also to tablet and mobile because its successful, there the option is for making it nice and scalable and putting it in the store.

Sometimes touch/mobile is an afterthought for programmers. Not their primary audience or goal. Of course it'd be nice if everything shifted to UWP, but with many programmers having their traditional and high paying audiences on desktop and tablet, that's not going to happen overnight.

It'd be easier to convince them to add touch, and scaling as an add-on, to convert via centennial rather than start their whole project with smartphones in mind.

With windows cloud coming, and the security option to lock apps to the windows store however, that may still produce somewhat of the desired result - consideration of mobility, and engagement in the universal platform.

 

[a5cent]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

For an example of a win32 app, that scales beautifully on a small tablet, is touch friendly, and is win32 but not a UWP app, but is on the windows store:
Kodi.
<snipped>
No one codes for hardware that doesn't exist. But with windows on arm, if someone primarily writes some win32 code for desktop, and then decides to push it also to tablet and mobile because its successful, there the option is for making it nice and scalable and putting it in the store.

You are still talking about the UI. I am not. Futhermore, for every example of a Win32 app that uses touch and does scale well to very small screen sizes, I will find you 10'000 that do not and likely never will. Like I said, Win32 was not designed to support touch. It was tacked on as a clunky afterthought. You can hack your way around it and bleed and suffer in the process, but it's anything but simple and reliable. That won't change.

If you looked under the app collection "powerful PC software", you'll find a number of project centennial conversions to the UWA.

I think we've discussed this before. Centennial does not convert Win32 software into a UWP app. It remains Win32 software, even if it's in the Windows Store.

 

[Iain_S]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

If windows Mobile is dead then Microsoft would not invest in updating to Redstone 3 and continue to pay for those software engineers to improve the the product.

At this point mobile has not taken the jump to RS3, it has been removed from that branch of testing and is on its own CU Release2 branch.

 

[EspHack]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

whatever, I could live with an 8" atom tablet as a phone, currently looking for one with cellular modem built in

x86 master race##

 

[PerfectReign]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

And here's another...

http://www.windowslatest.com/2017/05/01/windows-phone-now-fans-viewpoint/

Sent from mTalk

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

You are still talking about the UI. I am not. Futhermore, for every example of a Win32 app that uses touch and does scale well to very small screen sizes, I will find you 10'000 that do not and likely never will. Like I said, Win32 was not designed to support touch. It was tacked on as a clunky afterthought. You can hack your way around it and bleed and suffer in the process, but it's anything but simple and reliable. That won't change.


I think we've discussed this before. Centennial does not convert Win32 software into a UWP app. It remains Win32 software, even if it's in the Windows Store.

Yes it becomes universal across win32 onecore platforms (like windows on arm, windows cloud, windows on x86, console), rather than across all onecore platforms (such as mobile and IoT).

People are still making win32s, whether they design them to scale or not, that's up to the developers, as is the platform and code they choose to use.

So long as MS is diversifying windows form factor, adding LTE, and encouraging use of the store, people will be enticed to scale. Cshell will be designed to function on small form factors, and that does involve x86 apps, in the form of basically every type of windows - cshell is not windows variant dependant.

Which is good for windows 10 mobile too, as it means a full desktop experience when plugged in, using vr, or even miracasting.

Hey, you may not like that particularly, or agree with the strategy, but that's how its going to be, x86 will be able to run on small LTE enabled, call and GPS enabled devices, and large devices alike, as will cshell.

Mobile marketshare sure as heck ain't going to draw people to scaling their apps! And current tablet share isn't going to bring every x86 developer over to uwp either. I don't particularly see game coders giving up full screen exclusive mode any time soon, and games are amongst the most well funded apps, that have atm, at least unlike many win32s, a selection of touch enabled offerings. A company like adobe needs a good marketshare to bother investing even in tablets outside of large screen devices.

Giving the option of both UWA, and UWP, whilst the lock down security option encourages window store (via CU and windows cloud), and windows on arm is aimed at expanding tablets (and cshell is designed to make windows scale into any form), should pay off as far as scaling is concerned.

ATM, as much as windows tablets are the fastest growing, they are only 5 percent marketshare, and largely bigger screened devices. They are also largely expensive. MS needs to work on that, if its to get people to either scale win32 UWAs or make UWPs.

There's nothing to stop someone writing a UWP that mainly suits just mobile, or mainly suits just desktop. The ability to scale isn't something someone can force at gunpoint. It's a commercial prospect, something that can only be encouraged and enticed. The main thing that will drive scalability, is an audience.

For UWP only platforms, like mobile, and IoT core, that audience both doesn't exist, and will be awhile from being created. Its pragmatic to allow more of an afterthought mentality for UWA in the meantime. Even if, if marketshare of smaller devices kicked off, UWP would become more ideal.

In the end, its about users, and FF/hardware platforms, than it is merely about the OS. OS and APIs can encourage, and they can sort of funnel people into certain things like the windows store or UWP/UWA, but only users can really seal the deal. Right now, users for tablets seem like a better bet, rather that users for watches or phones. And tablet users will be wanting to take advantage of win32s, even in smaller form factors.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Microsoft admits Windows Phone is a dead platform...

whatever, I could live with an 8" atom tablet as a phone, currently looking for one with cellular modem built in

x86 master race##

There are just not enough intel tablets with LTE, especially in the smaller form factor. I'd be curious to try that out, or test it myself, given all the calling/texting etc is being imported into windows proper.

 

[Sedp23]

So, when will there be a massive 95% off sale of all windows phones at the Microsoft store? That's when I will go get a 950XL or the HP Elite X3!

It's only a wind down of Microsoft phones not the os...i wouldn't expect a discount sale that massive on the hp they aren't goin out of business or anything

Sent from Idol 4s

 

[Luuthian]

Interesting that they're simply dumping hardware but not the OS itself... Guess we'll see where that goes. Blackberry tried the same thing and it went nowhere.

 

[mikepalma]

It's done guys. Wishful thinking won't change anything. It's a phone world now, and there are two options. W10M was a miserable failure. MS has a responsibility to make $ for its shareholders, not resuscitate a loser.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Danobe]

Interesting that they're simply dumping hardware but not the OS itself... Guess we'll see where that goes. Blackberry tried the same thing and it went nowhere.

But Microsoft is a software company at heart. Blackberry not so much.

 

[Drael646464]

But Microsoft is a software company at heart. Blackberry not so much.

MS is a multi-billion dollar company that actually profits from mobile, and can leverage its successes in many other areas. And it's most certainly still developing mobile, and people are most certainly developing UWPs. Clearly, a unified platform benefits from the ability to run on all devices.

The sky is falling crowd could not be more obviously more distorting the reality.

I wouldn't say BB is a failure yet either, their licensing with TCL might finally get them back in the black.

 

[Guytronic]

Does Microsoft charge for iOS or Android apps?

 

[Drael646464]

It's done guys. Wishful thinking won't change anything. It's a phone world now, and there are two options. W10M was a miserable failure. MS has a responsibility to make $ for its shareholders, not resuscitate a loser.

Sent from mTalk

There are slightly more phones than PCs, but people still have and buy PCs (last quarter saw growth, mostly in notebooks, and gaming PCs continue to grow). There are also tablets, and consoles and a variety of forms of computers. These are not direct competitor products, they are complimentary products, people generally own multiple devices in the home. And as technologies they are also tended to change form over time, not remain fixed in form and function forever.

I think if you actually factored in consoles, tablets and PCs you might find that phones make less than half of devices, but typically consoles are not counted. Indeed most OS surveys you hear about are wildly inaccurate due to being based on web browsing studies, not individual devices.

I think you could reasonably say "it's a world that's becoming more mobile", in terms of not just phones, but hybrids, notebooks, and portable gaming devices.

But it's not like stationary computers have suddenly become irrelevant, or stopped selling. They still offer vastly more power and storage, more powerful software development and superior input. That's not going to change long term either - do you think a dinky phone is going to be able to run neural networking machine learning software? Power high end immersive VR? Even if things become more cloud based, somewhere something with more beef is going to be serving it to us.

 

[libra89]

Does Microsoft charge for iOS or Android apps?

From what I have seen, they generally don't.

 

[Danobe]

MS is a multi-billion dollar company that actually profits from mobile, and can leverage its successes in many other areas. And it's most certainly still developing mobile, and people are most certainly developing UWPs. Clearly, a unified platform benefits from the ability to run on all devices.

The sky is falling crowd could not be more obviously more distorting the reality.

I wouldn't say BB is a failure yet either, their licensing with TCL might finally get them back in the black.

My point was that although Blackberry failed (since they are a hardware company at heart), it doesn't mean that MS will fail (as they're a software company at heart)

 

[Eric Hamilton]

Game over.

We have until the end of June and Windows Phone will be done.

Microsoft to Complete Windows Phone Wind-Down by June

It was fun while it lasted.