My prediction: Cshell at build

[Drael646464]

Well I was half wrong and half-right. They did mention "fluent design", and they even released Cortana skills in a very limited preview.

But no cshell yet. I think that's still a good turn out, and Cortana skills does work better on windows devices than other devices, so its a plus for win10 mobile users, especially when its actually released.

 

[Drael646464]

We may will hear cshell at may 23 event and future of windows mobile

Sent from mTalk

Well that event has me REALLY puzzled now.

You see it can't be the invoke - that's been announced and demo'd. They've said no new SP or SB, and that's not new anyway. It's not mixed reality - they would have announced that when they announced the others at build.

Windows on ARM has been stated, doesn't come till the end of the year.

So what does that leave? It has to forfil the definition of "whats next", which means it must be paradigm breaking, but also nothing we expect.

I guess it could be they announce cshell BUT what kind of "whats next" hardware?

Kind of a head scratcher. Really dying to find out now!

 

[Drael646464]

Hate to say I told you so, but: no CShell at Build, no W10M at Build and no confirmation that RS3 will come to W10M

rs3 has already been said by the insider team to be coming to mobile after its branched back in and they finish work on onecore. Feature2 is only for allowing further work on onecore. We've already had official word on that.

But your right about cshell. I was on point on Cortana skills, AND "neon", but missed the boat there. Maybe it'll be announced later - would seem silly to reform the base OS design language and not put cshell in at the same time. Its doubling the work.

 

[milkyway]

rs3 has already been said by the insider team to be coming to mobile after its branched back in and they finish work on onecore. Feature2 is only for allowing further work on onecore. We've already had official word on that.

But your right about cshell. I was on point on Cortana skills, AND "neon", but missed the boat there. Maybe it'll be announced later - would seem silly to reform the base OS design language and not put cshell in at the same time. Its doubling the work.

Do you have an official quote about RS3 coming to W10M?
Redstone 3 is now the Windows 10 'Fall Creators Update'
"Instead, currently supported (Redstone 2) smartphones will be getting 'feature2' updates, which does include updates to core security, networking, encryption, Cortana, Edge, and so on...."

 

[faisalbaba]

I thinks rs3 will not coming to even support phones and windows 10 arm is the future of windows phone ,Microsoft may show full windows 10 on phone in may 23 event

Sent from mTalk

 

[Drael646464]

Do you have an official quote about RS3 coming to W10M?
Redstone 3 is now the Windows 10 'Fall Creators Update'
"Instead, currently supported (Redstone 2) smartphones will be getting 'feature2' updates, which does include updates to core security, networking, encryption, Cortana, Edge, and so on...."

"As we release new builds from our Development Branch for PC, we will also be doing the same for Windows 10 Mobile just like we have been in the past. However, Windows Insiders will likely notice some minor differences. The biggest difference being that the build number and branch won’t match the builds we will be releasing for PC. This is a result of more work we’re doing to converge code into*OneCore*– the heart of Windows across PC, tablet, phone, IoT,*HoloLens, Xbox and more as we continue to develop new improvements for Windows 10 Mobile and our enterprise customers."

http://winsupersite.com/creators-up...ur-options-getting-early-builds-are-narrowing

That's been the explaination dan has also received from his insiders, that as I said, the split is temporary while they work on onecore, and will converge when that work is done.

I think this also makes sense in light of their "stripping windows mobile for parts" in preparation for windows on arm. If those things become part of the coreOS, they will have to be "stripped out" of the non one core stuff from mobile/adjusted.

 

[Drael646464]

I thinks rs3 will not coming to even support phones and windows 10 arm is the future of windows phone ,Microsoft may show full windows 10 on phone in may 23 event

Sent from mTalk

I doubt it. Its possible I suppose, but they have already said officially that the first windows on arm device comes late this year, and that they'll be focusing on tablets/servers primarily. Windows 10 mobile is extremely battery efficient compared to the desktopOS. The desktop OS will need cshell AND battery optimisation to get onto a phone AND they'll need a need form factor for it.

Not impossible, but at this point seems very unlikely. AND there's the problem of budget devices. Premium smartphone sales are dipping. They can't just release a new mobile OS on premium only hardware at this point in the market.

I have zero doubts about them eventually doing this. It would make EXCELLENT sense once UWP is built up via 's' and 'windows on arm' on tablets. But I don't think the timing is right, even if they had the device ready. The tablets should come first.

That said, I have literally no idea what this "next" thing is they are releasing. Its not SP, SB, mixed reality, invoke or any of the usual suspects.

 

[faisalbaba]

I doubt it. Its possible I suppose, but they have already said officially that the first windows on arm device comes late this year, and that they'll be focusing on tablets/servers primarily. Windows 10 mobile is extremely battery efficient compared to the desktopOS. The desktop OS will need cshell AND battery optimisation to get onto a phone AND they'll need a need form factor for it.

Not impossible, but at this point seems very unlikely. AND there's the problem of budget devices. Premium smartphone sales are dipping. They can't just release a new mobile OS on premium only hardware at this point in the market.

I have zero doubts about them eventually doing this. It would make EXCELLENT sense once UWP is built up via 's' and 'windows on arm' on tablets. But I don't think the timing is right, even if they had the device ready. The tablets should come first.

That said, I have literally no idea what this "next" thing is they are releasing. Its not SP, SB, mixed reality, invoke or any of the usual suspects.

You are right but anything can happen.

Sent from mTalk

 

[milkyway]

"As we release new builds from our Development Branch for PC, we will also be doing the same for Windows 10 Mobile just like we have been in the past. However, Windows Insiders will likely notice some minor differences. The biggest difference being that the build number and branch won’t match the builds we will be releasing for PC. This is a result of more work we’re doing to converge code into*OneCore*– the heart of Windows across PC, tablet, phone, IoT,*HoloLens, Xbox and more as we continue to develop new improvements for Windows 10 Mobile and our enterprise customers."

http://winsupersite.com/creators-up...ur-options-getting-early-builds-are-narrowing

That's been the explaination dan has also received from his insiders, that as I said, the split is temporary while they work on onecore, and will converge when that work is done.

I think this also makes sense in light of their "stripping windows mobile for parts" in preparation for windows on arm. If those things become part of the coreOS, they will have to be "stripped out" of the non one core stuff from mobile/adjusted.

That's a very old quote and nowhere does it state that it is just temporary. WinBeta recent speculations point out that W10M will get the features of the Creators Update (night light and custom accent picker) with the "official feature2" update but that's it.

 

[Drael646464]

That's a very old quote and nowhere does it state that it is just temporary. WinBeta recent speculations point out that W10M will get the features of the Creators Update (night light and custom accent picker) with the "official feature2" update but that's it.

How old is feature2? I thought it was only recent.

Dan, from this site, says his insiders have confirmed that feature2 is temporary. His sources have been right on many things, he seems very confident in it, and personally I trust his word more than speculation that seems to spread like old wives tales. He's hardly overly optimistic about windows 10 mobile either, in its current state, in fact constantly pessimistic and critical, depressingly so, so I wouldn't consider him positively biased.

It's not actually that atypical a thing to do, to split branches like this. They often do it, when they want to delay features, market test them, or practically test them before release. In this case the stated reason was made reasonably clear for the split.

Reading into it, like people are, is a little like reading into a change in the direction of the wind IMO.

I am pretty sure it makes zero logical sense to dump windows 10 mobile, commercially - windows on arm is not a suitable replacement for a smartphone platform - it would require major UI changes, and major battery optimisation and clearly won't be ready in that sense for about two years - I mean its not even ready for release on tablets right now.

MS clearly wants windows to be the one OS that rules them all (what multi-billion OS software maker wouldn't!), and while mobile isn't a winner right now, there is no lost profit, or money, so why beat a retreat?

If they were hemorraging money I'd understand, but that are still making in the millions (yes chump change for them, but people would lose/invest money for the sort of opportunity that could later represent - blackberry spent years burning cash on bb10 just to get a shot, and if your still actually making money however "small", whats the big deal?)

If I were Microsoft, I would see windows 10 mobile as a sort of side project. Not a major cash earner, and not an end goal, yet, but something that pays for its own investment, and could open doors later when the pieces are in place.

The actual install base isn't tiny either. It's something between 1 and 2.5% of around 1-2 billion smartphones (actual install base, the relevant number for software, is harder to estimate than marketshare/sales). Some of those customers being key enterprise users, the sort that MS earns its big money via azure from.

Anyway, it says:

"This is a result of more work we’re doing to converge code into*OneCore*– the heart of Windows across PC, tablet, phone, IoT,*HoloLens, Xbox and more as we continue to develop new improvements for Windows 10 Mobile and our enterprise customers."

If you don't trust MSFTs announcements, why would you trust any newer ones on the topic more?

If you have that much distrust, no statement or announcement will ever be enough.

 

[milkyway]

I still don't see the official statement that RS3 will come to W10M. Your quote says "we continue to develop new improvements" - this could mean that W10M will receive only security patches (and maybe performance improvements).

I think W10onARM will come with RS3 in fall and this will be the "official" end of W10M. W10M will continue to get this performance and security patches (feature 3 and 4?). MS cannot compete with cheap smartphones anyway because you have Android phones in this market.
They will bring the Ultra Mobile Surface (or whatever it will be called) with W10oA to the market in 2018 and it will be positioned not as a phone, but as something else. MS will say "You can buy a smartphone (iOS or Android), or you can buy a ultramobile PC that is able to take calls".
Their won't be any new W10M (at least not from MS). Maybe HP, Alcatel, .... will put something to the market. The Surface Mobile will have awesome hardware and will be very expensive.

These are my predictions



Anyways, not later than September/October we will see if W10M will get "RS3"

 

[dorelse]

The writing is on the wall. Regardless of what they do (or don't do with WM10), Win10 on ARM is the direction. Lumia 950/XL will be 2 years old this fall, they can sunset support saying they fully supported the devices as promised. They'll have to continue life support, um, support for the HP Elite X3 & Alcatel IDOL 4S / Pro models on the 'Feature 2 branch for a bit longer.

A new Surface 'mobile' device will emerge next Fall or Spring running a Qualcomm 835 (or later) Chip, and 3rd party vendor support will emerge (hopefully) with a myriad of devices & form factors...hopefully a few phones crop up too.

They're hoping that Windows S & UWP finally take off which will start to finally get the store ramping up, and bring 'mobile' (don't call them phones) back out of the shadows.

They'll claim we'll get RS3, but it'll be just like we got the Creators Update..a 7.5 to 7.8 update that gives us very few new features, while still calling it RS3.

That's my prediction of the vision.

 

[Drael646464]

I still don't see the official statement that RS3 will come to W10M. Your quote says "we continue to develop new improvements" - this could mean that W10M will receive only security patches (and maybe performance improvements).

I think W10onARM will come with RS3 in fall and this will be the "official" end of W10M. W10M will continue to get this performance and security patches (feature 3 and 4?). MS cannot compete with cheap smartphones anyway because you have Android phones in this market.
They will bring the Ultra Mobile Surface (or whatever it will be called) with W10oA to the market in 2018 and it will be positioned not as a phone, but as something else. MS will say "You can buy a smartphone (iOS or Android), or you can buy a ultramobile PC that is able to take calls".
Their won't be any new W10M (at least not from MS). Maybe HP, Alcatel, .... will put something to the market. The Surface Mobile will have awesome hardware and will be very expensive.

These are my predictions



Anyways, not later than September/October we will see if W10M will get "RS3"

Well it explains the reason for the branching (to work on onecore). Working on onecore isn't an eternal project, hence its logical that mobile will be folded back in, based on what they have said.

They need apps before that would be a wise move. Better to establish LTE/calling cheap windows tablets first, to lay the groundwork IMO, as they have stated they are doing with windows on arm. They have also stated "mobile phones are not a priority right now'.

Also battery optimisation would need to come a long way, and cshell would need to be completely finished, before any smartphone - with would also require a piece of hardware with a new form factor, according the satya. And such new high end arm chips are expensive - in the current market condition you need budget models.

I might be wrong, and maybe the whole thing is some elaborate bluff just to throw people off the scent, and they've been working on surface phone all this time. It'll probably happen eventually, but I suspect you might be being optimistic on the timing.

 

[Cruncher04]

Windows 10 mobile is extremely battery efficient compared to the desktopOS.

What evidence do you have for this claim? I'd say evidence points to the contrary.

 

[Drael646464]

What evidence do you have for this claim? I'd say evidence points to the contrary.

The desktop OS, like all desktop OSes is a real-time multi-tasking environment. The mobile OS, like all mobile OSes, isn't. The desktop OS is an environment that runs unlimited services, the mobile OS, like all mobile OSes runs limited services.

Even comparing windows 10 mobile, to android - android runs quite a few tasks in memory, unless it runs out, windows 10 mobile freezes any app you leave (like iOS).

Windows 10 mobile in this sense, is on the stricter side of battery preservation, like iOS.

No doubt MS intends to solve this gap, and bridge it long term, as they are re-introducing throttling, but for all day battery life on a smartphone they will need to further cap multi-tasking, and limit services etc to make it operate competitively with the likes of iOS and windows 10 mobile, or android (which uses the ram management service to limit active programs).

Basically speaking, mobile OSes are built from the ground up with battery in mind. Windows 10 has been more retrofitted with battery management, and primarily for laptops and tablets which have larger battery, and usually lack always connected LTE services.

 

[Cruncher04]

The desktop OS, like all desktop OSes is a real-time multi-tasking environment. The mobile OS, like all mobile OSes, isn't.

Windows is no real-time OS. In addition Androids multi-tasking features are very similar to Windows as it has Linux under the hood...very unlike the crippled multi-tasking under Windows Mobile.
In any case, there is no evidence that Windows Mobile saves a significant amount of power versus Android or Windows.
In fact the Surface 2 with Desktop Windows was as power efficient as any Android device of similar spec.

 

[Drael646464]

Windows is no real-time OS. In addition Androids multi-tasking features are very similar to Windows as it has Linux under the hood...very unlike the crippled multi-tasking under Windows Mobile.
In any case, there is no evidence that Windows Mobile saves a significant amount of power versus Android or Windows.
In fact the Surface 2 with Desktop Windows was as power efficient as any Android device of similar spec.

Windows 10 home and pro, are definitely real-time multi-tasking environments. Whereas iOS and Windows 10 mobile, err on the side of battery preservation by freezing unused apps (Android is somewhere in the middle).

This is also why Windows 10 mobile and iOS operates on lower RAM than Windows 10 desktop, or Android.

There is no common comparison of mobile OS battery life and desktop OS battery life. Smartphones have always connected connectivity.

For a fair comparison, you'd need a windows 10 tablet, with the same mAH as a smartphone running windows 10 mobile, and they'd both need LTE and calling. That doesn't exist until windows on ARM is released, as windows devices that come with LTE are data only, and not "always connected".

The surface pro isn't a great comparison point with android either - android devices don't come with things like full SSD, high end intel processors, or cooling systems

AFAIK what you are asking for doesn't exist, and its not an easy comparison to make.

But it should be logical, from the build of mobile stacks, that windows 10 on desktop is not designed the same way.

If indeed, as you claim, this doesn't improve battery life, then every mobile OS that exists is designed wrong, and should not be freezing apps or limiting services at all. And perhaps that is truer now in the age of increased ram, bigger batteries, bigger screens, larger CPUs (ie larger hardware power draw) than it was in smartphones early days IDK.

Still seems logical to me however, that limiting running apps, and services would preserve battery life, and throttling should only go so far. The depth of this effect remains to be seen, given the lack of ability to make easy comparisons.

And if it turns out you are right, android, ios, and windows 10 mobile should all be re-designed to incorporate throttling instead of service and task limitations and dev guidelines. That would be an interesting thing, if it turned out to be true, as essentially every mobile OS that exists would be "out of date" compared with the hardware.

 

[Cruncher04]

My point of comparison was Surface 2 (not Surface Pro) running Windows on ARM (aka Windows RT) compared to Android Tablets of similar spec. The very same Android which also runs on phones. This proves that Windows itself is not less power efficient than a more limited and mobile oriented OS.

If indeed, as you claim, this doesn't improve battery life, then every mobile OS that exists is designed wrong, and should not be freezing apps or limiting services at all.

First of all, it is a "feature" of Windows Mobile and to some extend iOS to suspend user threads as they get into background and not of "every mobile OS". Second I indeed do think that it just limits the user. There is no inherent power saving of that "feature". Every well written application does suspend itself if there is no work to do. If they have work to do in the background there is a reason for it. I see not a single reason to enforce suspension at OS level.

Still seems logical to me however, that limiting running apps, and services would preserve battery life, and throttling should only go so far. The depth of this effect remains to be seen, given the lack of ability to make easy comparisons.

See, here is your mistake. You assume apps, for which suspension is enforced would actually do something (e.g. using processing resources) if pushed to the background and suspension is not enforced.
Such a limitation however would just rule out certain classes of application, which have to do something in the background.
Make no mistake, i did not claim, that if an application uses processing resources in the background, that power consumption is not increased.

And if it turns out you are right, android, ios, and windows 10 mobile should all be re-designed to incorporate throttling instead of service and task limitations and dev guidelines.

That not a question of re-design but the removal of relatively simple policy.
Point in case for Win32 apps suspension is not enforced, while for WinRT (aka UWP apps) suspension is enforced using the very same OS scheduler.
By the way, i am all for dev guidelines instead of enforcement at OS level.

 

[Drael646464]

First of all, it is a "feature" of Windows Mobile and to some extend iOS to suspend user threads as they get into background and not of "every mobile OS".

It's a feature of android, ios, and windows 10 mobile to suspend apps. Android does it via the ram management service, and is thus quasi-RT, the rest just suspended, outside of specific exceptions. Depending on Ram useage etc. Basically the OS decides on your behalf what to suspend (based on settings given by the manufacturer).

BB10 is realtime, because its based on QNX, and there might be others but I suppose by "every mobile OS" I meant "Every mobile OS that has more than 0.1 marketshare". Android is slightly different, but its also not free of app suspension. It's something in between.

Second I indeed do think that it just limits the user. There is no inherent power saving of that "feature". Every well written application does suspend itself if there is no work to do.

I'll probably convert to Christianity the moment I find just one well written application on a mobile platform j/k

But if your right, android, ios and windows 10 mobile should all change their play and stop suspending apps. There's no need to conservatively manage ram so intensely really any more given we are averaging 2-4 gb now on such a lightweight platform with largely lightweight apps. They could just handle ram like windows does, caching actively and dynamically to disk, rather than hibernating apps.

See, here is your mistake. You assume apps, for which suspension is enforced would actually do something (e.g. using processing resources) if pushed to the background and suspension is not enforced.

Depends on the app. Also on what the user wants. Some may want youtube to keep playing, some might find it really annoying.

When I open multiple youtube windows in edge, they all play at once, because google doesn't write to the html5 standard properly (they only suspend automatically in chromium). That kind gets my goat. I never use youtube for podcasts etc, so I never want youtube to play when its not active. Some people may want the opposite.

Such a limitation however would just rule out certain classes of application, which have to do something in the background.
Make no mistake, i did not claim, that if an application uses processing resources in the background, that power consumption is not increased.

Right.

Honestly I'm not happy with the way any of the mobile OSes do it myself. I think it should be a setting the user can control if the dev wants to code it.

Same with running services - not everyone wants facebook notification updates for example, and they are a known battery drain. I'd rather only hear from messenger, and have the FB service completely switched off.

That not a question of re-design but the removal of relatively simple policy.
Point in case for Win32 apps suspension is not enforced, while for WinRT (aka UWP apps) suspension is enforced using the very same OS scheduler.

Well that helps that its easy to code then, within windows.

 

[Cruncher04]

Depends on the app. Also on what the user wants. Some may want youtube to keep playing, some might find it really annoying.

See, here the problem starts. The OS has no clue what the user wants. If the user started a video, the associated semantic would be to play the video until end. When moving a process to the background, the OS should never assume that the user wants to have that process suspended. Instead the user should just stop the video or close the tab.

In addition this can be handled on application level since applications getting a notification, when moved to the background. A particular application might just decide to stop a certain job when moved to background.

There's no need to conservatively manage ram so intensely really any more given we are averaging 2-4 gb now on such a lightweight platform with largely lightweight apps. They could just handle ram like windows does, caching actively and dynamically to disk, rather than hibernating apps.

I was only talking suspension (e.g. app is not scheduled for execution anymore) not about RAM management. Hibernation to disk is another topic. Issue is, WinRT apps are just suspended even if there is no need for hibernation.

Same with running services - not everyone wants facebook notification updates for example, and they are a known battery drain. I'd rather only hear from messenger, and have the FB service completely switched off.

You always have the option to shut down a service (or to stop an app for that matter) manually.

In any case the vast majority of apps would just naturally suspend if there is no user input so they would be suspended anyway in the background, because there simply are no events coming in.
Then there are application, which are supposed to do a certain job, which needs to finish independent of any events. As example if i want to compile 500 files it would take a while and my expectation is, that compilation completes in the background.
Then there are applications, which are dependent on external events (e.g. no user input). These external events could be timers or coming from the network stack. Example of these type would be music players, gps navigation apps etc.
Finally you have application, which would naturally suspend due to synchronization with some hardware mechanism. Example would be games, which are suspended while waiting for the GPU to finish the presentation.

In all these cases i do not see a single reason, why the OS should enforce suspension when pushed to background.