Official 8.1/Denim for the Icon?

[lithos]

it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.

I understand that it's not impossible for a device to fail carrier testing, but in the case of the Icon how likely is it that an unforeseen technological issue is at the root of the non-release, rather than marketing or business drivers?

 

[NancyAnnL]

I understand that it's not impossible for a device to fail carrier testing, but in the case of the Icon how likely is it that an unforeseen technological issue is at the root of the non-release, rather than marketing or business drivers?

IMO, it seems VERY unlikely.

 

[puckrazy1]

So I just picked up the Icon on 10/4 and they "retired" it five days later. That's bad, right? 10+ years with AT&T and had my fill of the iPhone. Switched the whole family specifically for the Icon (they can get an iPhone anywhere). Being a long time iPhone user you just don't deal with this kind of stuff. Don't regret it though. It's a great phone.

 

[a5cent]

I understand that it's not impossible for a device to fail carrier testing, but in the case of the Icon how likely is it that an unforeseen technological issue is at the root of the non-release, rather than marketing or business drivers?

IMO, it seems VERY unlikely.

I think you two are assuming that the only way for an update to get held up, is if it fails carrier testing. That isn't necessarily true however. It can easily take a few weeks or even months for a carrier to get around to testing any particular device with a new OS version + firmware (they usually have somewhat of a backlog). That's quite some time that goes by, and during that time it's very likely that both MS and OEMs will find one or two new bugs of their own. When MS or the OEM finds such bugs, they usually are not considered show stoppers, but there are exceptions, like the recently discovered BitLocker bug. In this case it was MS that pulled the brakes, not the carriers. Carriers tend to search for bugs that could negatively affect their network infrastructure and support processes, so they test only a subset of all the things MS and OEMs do. However, in the rare instances where a carrier finds a bug, it's almost always a show stopper.

I don't work for a U.S. carrier, so I have no idea what the issue may be with the Icon. I can only speculate. I think it's likely that Verizon completed Cyan testing, only to have MS cancel it due to the BitLocker bug. By the time MS offered a fix, Verizon was probably already being asked to schedule testing for Update 1 + Denim . I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon just decided to skip Cyan and go straight to Denim in the hope of saving themselves some work. But again, that's only my guess.

 

[NancyAnnL]

No, I was not assuming that the only way for an update to be delayed is for it to fail carrier testing- that was the point. I agreed with LITHOS that it was more likely due to marketing or business drivers. I would consider your proposed scenario to be one of many possible business drivers. I have no doubt that Verizon prioritizes its best interest first and foremost.

 

[a5cent]

No, I was not assuming that the only way for an update to be delayed is for it to fail carrier testing- that was the point. I agreed with LITHOS that it was more likely due to marketing or business drivers. I would consider your proposed scenario to be one of many possible business drivers. I have no doubt that Verizon prioritizes its best interest first and foremost.

Ah. Got it. I'm so used to most considering only the technical issues, that I overlook it when people actually are talking about business decisions. You're right of course. Sorry for the detour.

 

[anon(7901790)]

No, I was not assuming that the only way for an update to be delayed is for it to fail carrier testing- that was the point. I agreed with LITHOS that it was more likely due to marketing or business drivers. I would consider your proposed scenario to be one of many possible business drivers. I have no doubt that Verizon prioritizes its best interest first and foremost.

In this kind of industry, the tech side directly affects the business side. If Verizon's network gets compromised because of a technical glitch, then its business is directly and negatively affected.

 

[kencaz]

In this kind of industry, the tech side directly affects the business side. If Verizon's network gets compromised because of a technical glitch, then its business is directly and negatively affected.

Yes, but it is also true that Verizon purposely not trying to sell customers windows phone has directly and negatively affected Microsoft's business. Unfortunately though we are the loser's.

 

[MobileVortex]

My only issue is that they wont even comment. The idea that no news is better then saying "we've had some issues but are working on it" or even " there is issues and its never coming" is just terrible CS IMHO.

 

[anywhereanytime]

I work for a telecom company and I can tell you that this is incorrect.

Firmware is created neither by the carriers nor MS. That is completely up to OEMs. Carriers don't actually touch anything related to software on any WP device, but OEMs can create as many firmware versions as is necessary to support the various carriers. Carriers just expect that to already be setup and ready to go, when the OEM hands them their first test candidate.

So, carriers do a lot of testing per device, but none of their own development. Zero. MS and Nokia have replicated most carriers entire testing process in house, so it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.

If errors are found, they are usually in areas unrelated to carrier testing.

WOW ... FINALLY, the "facts" ... I have scoured a dozen threads looking for this ... THANK YOU!

So, It actually "may be" MICROSOFT is the problem with "transparency" and not the "bad guys" Verizon - who ONLY CARE about milking us for every dollar they can" (3 grandfathered lines and paying full price for every phone) - who we mostly all hate for all of the other crap they have done to use over the years???

Joe Belifore is now Vice President for ALL Windows and NOT just Windows Phone ... anyone know who that person is?

 

[BlueSky2008]

If Verizon decide to retire Icon then Microsoft should allow user upgrade Firmware directly because Microsoft/Nokia update firmware (Cyan, Denim,...) and send to Verizon, at this time Verizon verify to check if new firmware is stable for Verizon's network so if Verizon does it then I think it save time when Microsoft release new OS and new FW for Icon.

We should raise our voice to Microsoft and request them to provide Cyan and Denim to Icon

iPhone is evident.

 

[UncleGrandpa]

My icon works perfectly with WP 8. If it was never updated, I wouldn't care. Does everything remarkably well.

 

[NOLATechy]

AT&T has been upgrading their network dramatically over the past 3 years. If you haven't tried AT&T in a while, you might want to ask someone who has it. My neighbors switched back to AT&T here in New Orleans and their LTE speeds are actually faster than my XLTE speeds on Verizon. The only reason I'm with Verizon is to see if the Icon gets Denim. The Icon, to me, is the BEST Windows Phone on the market (spec-wise) and I wouldn't want to lose that. The 1520 is just as good, but the size is a bit big. However, if Verizon doesn't give us the Denim update by December, I will just get used to a larger phone and head back to AT&T myself.

 

[nunyazz]

I have to say that Verizon still out does AT&T in New Orleans for me, especially in the Dome. I get fill bars on Verizon, while friends can't get squat on AT&T.

 

[wpfan2be]

Did you guys see this? New Lumia with dual-SIM and more found at the FCC.

Just recently, Microsoft?s new phone model number RM-1090 was spotted in the FCC.

New Lumia with dual-SIM and more found at the FCC

 

[AR2186]

If we don't see at least Denim by mid December (around Dec 15th or so), I will pursue this, unless someone else starts it.

Something needs to be done in this case, I could see if it was a 3 year old phone or something but, it's not even 9 months old.... Verizon cant get away with this.



It does cost them money, They need Devs to update this "firmware that was received from Nokia" to make it compatible with their network, these devs are NOT CHEAP. Then they need to send it out to employees who will use and test for a while, all at a extra cost, then you need another team to take a list of bugs, confirm the issues, then back to the devs to fix, and release new update and test again..

Rinse and repeat till 95% of the bugs are out...

Yep, it does cost them money and no it's not cheap...

As far as I understood it, the firmware is created and fixed by Microsoft Mobile, not VZW. VZW literally just needs to test it, which they should do by crowdsourcing feedback in a beta program like we see Microsoft doing with W10 (which is why they got rid of so many Windows testers) and Apple does by releasing buggy firmware (8.0.1 anyone?).

I'll be the first to stand up and volunteer to be a part of this program for VZW. I know I can just roll back to 8.0 with the recovery tool anyway, so why not.

 

[AR2186]

What if . . . Something in Cyan and the ICON was just totally fubar - Verizon, Nokia, et al would probably not want to admit any culpability so silence is the best policy. Maybe Denim will fix it ???? I am a retired electrical engineer and the Icon is my first smart phone. I love it - and I love the WP OS. I really can't complain my phone works great and does amazing things. It is just tough when you know there is more stuff available but we can't have it

I actually think this is what happened, with Verizon being very conservative (to put it nicely) with updates, the problem people had with BitLocker encrypted phones, and tweaks to the radios with CDMA, I am not surprised it has taken so long. That said, all of that should be fixed already and I think it's as much to do with the M8 launch, which hasn't gone great, as it has to do with the firmware. At that point, they probably said "F___ it, lets just release Denim in Q4." I still think it's crazy, but hopefully it never made it out, but I am hoping someone leaks the firmware and we can be off to the races.

I bought the phone at full retail, and absolutely love it, but the wifi signal strength issues and horrible battery life (phone runs incredibly hot) are a huge problem. I ended up getting the M8 at the subsidized price, and it absolutely flies, runs cool and is all around amazing, with one MAJOR flaw - the camera is horrendous compared to my Icon. I love my m8, but I wake up every morning to check Navifirm+ and see if the Icon Cyan or Denim firmware has gone live there (which usually happens 1-2 days before roll out). The moment it goes live, I go back to the Icon and use the M8 as my backup. I've had a ton of smartphones over the years (including an iPhone 6 for work), and the Icon blows them all away when you consider the entire package. I may end up waiting for a 930 with US LTE bands (if it exists) to come down in price, buy an unlocked one and switch to Cricket. Hopefully selling the Icon will keep take some of the sting away.

Also, if any of you guys can tolerate AT&T's service (which has gotten a LOT better since I had my iPhone 4 in 2012), consider switching to Cricket. Unlimited data, talk and text with a limit to how much LTE data you get, much like T-Mobile, but on AT&T's network. Plans are about the same price, but if you have a family, you get increasing discounts the more people you bring up to 5 people (think you get $90 off list for 5 lines) and you also get $5 off for signing up for auto payment. 2gb per person came to something like $135 total. Plus with the new T-Mobile pressure, all these guys are going to keep upping the amount of data you get.

 

[AR2186]

I work for a telecom company and I can tell you that this is incorrect.



Firmware is created neither by the carriers nor MS. That is completely up to OEMs. Carriers don't actually touch anything related to OS/firmware development on any WP device, but OEMs can create as many firmware versions as is necessary to support the various carriers. Carriers just expect that to already be setup and ready to go, when the OEM hands them their first test candidate.



So, carriers do a lot of testing per device, but none of their own OS/firmware development. Zero. MS and Nokia have replicated some carrier's entire testing process in house, so it's rare that devices actually fail carrier testing.



If errors are found, they are usually in areas unrelated to carrier testing.

I think people were using Microsoft in this case as "Microsoft Mobile Oyj", which was the OEM for the Icon and formerly known as Nokia's devices and services business.

 

[a5cent]

I think people were using Microsoft in this case as "Microsoft Mobile Oyj", which was the OEM for the Icon and formerly known as Nokia's devices and services business.

Mostly true. However, the post I had quoted specifically claimed that carriers work on firmware themselves, which is what I wanted to correct.

 

[feeked]

I don't work for a U.S. carrier, so I have no idea what the issue may be with the Icon. I can only speculate. I think it's likely that Verizon completed Cyan testing, only to have MS cancel it due to the BitLocker bug. By the time MS offered a fix, Verizon was probably already being asked to schedule testing for Update 1 + Denim . I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon just decided to skip Cyan and go straight to Denim in the hope of saving themselves some work. But again, that's only my guess.

this has been my assumption until the retirement thing. now i'm not so sure.