One heck of a week for W10 Mobile. What's everyone feeling?

[tgp]

Being tied to the UWP means W10M can only ever be as relevant as the UWP is, and that's the problem. It's irrelevant to most. If UWP ever becomes more popular, so will W10M. Otherwise the UWP and W10M will go down together.

@a5cent, I would like your opinion on this question I have: it seems that so far, the development of W10M is behind its competition. From my experience, and from what I read, it still suffers from instability and "immaturity". Even taking the app shortage and quality out of the equation, it still has issues. This could be in part because it's been around for only a couple years and is still fresh out of the gate, or maybe it is caused by fundamental flaws in its design.

Now, let's imagine that UWP would have taken off very quickly, and that the Store would be flooded with high quality apps for mobile. Do you believe Microsoft would have doubled down on W10M development and given it higher priority? Are they seemingly indifferent to its quality right now because of the low market share? Would we have stability and maturity to rival iOS and Android?

 

[mattiasnyc]

Didn't we see two reports of confirmed announcements of new W10M phones this past week? One by a German manufacturer, and one by one based in the UK?

That should then bring us to a possible 4 new devices coming; an updated HP x3, the above two, and the Cerulean (assuming they get the funding).

 

[unichips]

I saw news that the Lumia 640 will be receiving the Creators Update. Based on the announced lifecycles from the last few releases of Windows 10 Mobile, that suggests Microsoft intends to provide it with sustaining and security updates until at least April 2019.

That being the case, we'd be looking at a smartphone originally purchased as far back as March 2015 that would likely continue to have vendor support at least 4 years later. That's actually pretty spectacular compared with most of the competition.

 

[a5cent]

@a5cent, I would like your opinion on this question I have: it seems that so far, the development of W10M is behind its competition. From my experience, and from what I read, it still suffers from instability and "immaturity". Even taking the app shortage and quality out of the equation, it still has issues. This could be in part because it's been around for only a couple years and is still fresh out of the gate, or maybe it is caused by fundamental flaws in its design.

Now, let's imagine that UWP would have taken off very quickly, and that the Store would be flooded with high quality apps for mobile. Do you believe Microsoft would have doubled down on W10M development and given it higher priority? Are they seemingly indifferent to its quality right now because of the low market share? Would we have stability and maturity to rival iOS and Android?

The "what would have been" questions are always hard. ;-)

If UWP had taken off and the store had been flooded with high quality apps for smartphones, then yes, we'd now definitely be witnessing a lot higher level of investment in W10M. It's because MS no longer sees W10M as the primary path to popularizing the UWP that W10M has fallen somewhat by the wayside.

Had W10M not fallen by the wayside, could it then have rivaled iOS and Android in terms of maturity and stability? No. It would likely have been better than it is now, but still nowhere close to Android and iOS.

Unfortunately, I can't provide a comprehensive explanation as to why that is so. Here are just some things to consider:

• Both Android and W10M (but not WP7, WP8 or iOS), are based on comparatively heavy OSes that were built for desktops/servers. It took Google many years and billions of dollars to advance Android from where it started out to where it is now. MS has barely been on that path for two years.
• MS doesn't get as much velocity out of each dollar spent on W10M as Google got out of each dollar spent on Android. That's because Windows constitutes a far more complicated environment to work in. Every change a W10M developer makes can and often will affect not just W10M, but also Windows IoT, Holographic, Xbox, W10, etc. All of the others also impact W10M. That necessitates a lot more upfront planing. Developers must consider multiple operating systems and their occasionally mutually exclusive requirements. Every change must be tested on every OS, rather than just once on Android. An app that is built for W10M must also work on larger screens. All that added complexity will continue to cost MS dearly in terms of both money and time.
• Android was never employed in mission-critical processes, which allowed Google to prioritize time-to-market over all other concerns. That isn't a luxury MS has with Windows.
• Google never had to worry much about adapting Android to various hardware platforms. Every component supplier under the sun made drivers for Android (like Qualcomm) which OEMs received free of charge as part of their hardware purchase. Everything else (software integration, device compatibility, hardware optimization, etc) was and is the OEMs problem, not Google's. MS must do all of that themselves.

I could list many more complications, but I'll leave it at that. I compared to Android, but most comparisons would also hold true with iOS, sometimes in slightly different ways, but MS would still be at a disadvantage. The sum of all these complications leads me to believe that MS has no chance of replicating Android's quick progression with W10M, no matter how much MS invests or prioritizes. Even if MS could match Android's progression with W10M, they would now still be about seven years behind. If MS was magical and could somehow close that seven year gap, W10M would still not be able to rival iOS' (or WP7's) efficiency. That's off the table for architectural reasons, not just for W10M but also for Android.

As you can see, there are a lot of downsides to a unified OS. MS is paying for it. There are also upsides however, like a consistent developer and user experience across form factors. In a nutshell: MS does a lot more work, so 3rd party developers and users can afford to do less. At least so far, that's just not payed off.

 

[tgp]

Thank you for your well articulated answer! (Your grasp of English still amazes me!) I know that we cannot give concrete responses to "what would have been", but it is interesting to think about anyway.

As you can see, there are a lot of downsides to a unified OS. MS is paying for it.

I've always questioned the wisdom of Microsoft aiming for a unified OS. In some cases, there is simply no way to do justice to two different scenarios with one solution. That single solution is going to be compromised on one side or the other, or both. Some of desktop's strengths are going to be hamstrung to make it viable on mobile. At the same time mobile is going to be more complicated than it should be so the solution can fill its role on the desktop.

But then...

There are also upsides however, like a consistent developer and user experience across form factors.

...there's this. The question is: do the benefits outweigh the negatives?

 

[mattiasnyc]

I've always questioned the wisdom of Microsoft aiming for a unified OS. In some cases, there is simply no way to do justice to two different scenarios with one solution. That single solution is going to be compromised on one side or the other, or both. Some of desktop's strengths are going to be hamstrung to make it viable on mobile. At the same time mobile is going to be more complicated than it should be so the solution can fill its role on the desktop.

I don't think you know that though. It might be the case, but then again it might not. I certainly don't really see why a mobile first software "would be more complicated than it should be" on the desktop. Why would it be?

As for converging the two I think we should remember that it wasn't long ago at all that there simply was no option to run even "modest" but feature rich software on cell phones. So even an application like Word or Excel simply didn't run on phones. And I think the issue was a combination of lack of compute power as well as storage. Now however that's not really an issue, so the proposition is completely different.

I would guess that most people that use laptops and desktops for work are actually not using software that is so heavy a mobile CPU couldn't do it. There are obvious exceptions in science and content creation industries, but certainly for anyone from a journalist to a lawyer the bulk of the work isn't too hard on the CPU. So what remains as a difference is merely the input/output options. And that's where converging makes complete sense: Run the software off of a device that's mobile and input/output on whatever is available.

For now it's called a smartphone running Continuum, but in the future who knows what we'll call it. It won't really matter. You buy a Windows 10 device that fits the form factor you want to have while mobile. Could be a small phone and then a 'dumb passive' laptop-dock like HP's solution, or it could be closer to tablet size, and when you're at your friend's place or at work you can connect wirelessly to your device and use their key/mouse/screen as input/output to check your mail etc; all while using your own internet/cell connection with your documents on your device for security.....

A unified OS makes complete sense to me.

 

[tgp]

I would guess that most people that use laptops and desktops for work are actually not using software that is so heavy a mobile CPU couldn't do it.

Yes I'll agree with you there. The PC repair techs where I work make a living removing virus', doing repair installs, and removing unwanted programs for customer who use nothing more than the browser. They're using a sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack.They should be using Chromebooks.

It's those who actually do need the power of a desktop that has me questioning Microsoft's quest for a unified OS. I don't even believe that the synergy between desktop and mobile is important to consumers. Right now, Windows desktop has 90% market share, and Android has 80%. Obviously there is a lot of overlap. But at the same time, the UI of Android (and iOS) is a lot more similar to Windows desktop than Windows phone's UI is to Windows desktop.

I guess we'll see how Microsoft's vision plays out. Whatever happens, we'll roll with it and adapt!

 

[Zachary Boddy]

Part of me wants to write a really long response. The other part of me wants to just write this and leave it at that. Alright,

No one is quite certain what Microsoft's end goal is. All we know is that Microsoft is a business and a business survives on profits. Windows Mobile has never been profitable for Microsoft, so it isn't feasible for Microsoft to continue to invest in Windows Mobile unless they had some endgame in mind. All we can say for certain is that Microsoft is terrible at communicating. Google and Apple have never had problems connecting with their consumer audience through whatever means necessary, even if it means coming clean and admitting mistakes. Microsoft is still struggling to push forward into a modern world that requires a more mobile, open-minded company to survive at the top. The job cuts and Microsoft's valiant attempts to move into social media and creating communities like the Windows Insider program are all testimonies to this plan. I just hope that open and honest communication are at the end of those plans. We'll have to see at Build 2017 if Microsoft has learned anything from their failings and mistakes over the last few years.

As far as Windows 10 Mobile goes, Microsoft clearly hasn't given up on it completely. Like I said before, Microsoft wouldn't continue to invest any money in a platform that will never prove profitable (however small those investments might be) unless they had an objective in mind. Microsoft has made clear and concise efforts to unify the traditionally clunky, complicated and powerful desktop software that has quickly been fading from relevance in this modern, fast-paced technology focused world with their failing, often forgotten Mobile solution in order to create what Microsoft hopes will become the "next big thing." If it'll work is not for any individual to say, and depends entirely on the steps Microsoft makes to patch relations with consumers they've burned in the past, the way they bring their product to the rest of the world, and how Microsoft handles further development.

Obviously, I've thrown my lot in with Microsoft. Not because I "know" it'll become the "next big thing" or because I think iOS and Android are things of the past. It's because Windows 10 works for me and it works really, really well. It's always becoming better and I like the direction it's heading in. It's far from perfect, especially Windows 10 Mobile, but my Surface Pro 4 and Lumia 950 XL make a great combination that I will continue to use until it becomes clear that there is a superior alternative out there. Maybe Microsoft is making a huge mistake with a unified OS, and the costs of OneCore and UWP will eventually be Microsoft downfall. Maybe Microsoft is destined to fade into the background, only being relevant at the far end of the power user spectrum where the power of Win32 is necessary. And maybe Microsoft's past mistakes with Mobile means it's already too late. But right now Windows 10 is a fantastic operating system and I can actually recommend Windows 10 Mobile to someone like me, who doesn't need the latest and fanciest apps or a new phone released every three weeks. It's stable and fast, it has a good feature set that means I'm able to do everything I need to do and can still show off a little to my friends, and it looks great. Yes, I want RS3 to bring CShell, Continuum improvements, Night Light, custom Accent Colors, better landscape support (like the Start Screen), split-screen and more powerful multi-tasking tools (like a Close All button, etc.), more effective power options (like using Cortana, or a Restart button when you hold down the power button), an improved Action Center. I want all those things and more. There's so much I would change and add to Windows 10 Mobile if I had the opportunity. And I kind of do with the Windows Insider Program. But that's all any of us have. All we can do is submit our feedback and hope Microsoft is smart enough to realize that we still care and we will still invest if they're willing to. They've made Mobile a part of their Windows vision, but can they follow through?

What I'm trying to say is that I like where Microsoft is right now. It is already a far better company than it was just five to ten years ago. It's come so far to be more open and friendly with people. But it's still a business, which means we have to be prepared if Microsoft's plans don't work out like we want them too. And Microsoft needs to be aware that if it doesn't play its cards perfectly, then they will lose their biggest advantages.

 

[sinime]

Joe is back!!!!

Back from the sea, Joe Belfiore is ready to help Microsoft win

Not sure if this is good news or not :/

 

[mattiasnyc]

It's those who actually do need the power of a desktop that has me questioning Microsoft's quest for a unified OS. I don't even believe that the synergy between desktop and mobile is important to consumers.

I don't think consumers think it's important either. On the other hand, I really do think this is one of those things where you don't miss something until you've actually had it.

I've been perpetually behind the technological (consumer) curve in pretty much every field since about the year 2000. Out of all my friends I was the last one to get rid of my Nokia candy-bar phone (I literally had to hold the antenna with my finger at exactly the right pressure to get it to work) and that was when everyone was on iPhones and Android. I did get the first dual-core Android (LG G2X I think), but I only used basic features and got on Facebook only about three years ago. Twitter? No. Instagram? What's that? ... and so on... but when it comes to work I'm on-point.

Anyway, what I was getting to was that once I did decide to get more into a unified ecosystem I picked Microsoft because I was bored with Android, and once I got a phone that actually worked well and integrated in a way that I perceive as being close to seamlessly I knew I'd miss it if it was gone. I didn't know this when i had my Android. I had a Yahoo mail account and a third-party email client. Third party browser. DropBox. Etc.

So I think this could be similar in the sense that people might not seek out a MS alternative because it is a unified OS and it's the latest thing, but over time people might end up in it regardless due to their employers switching them over to such systems. I think it could be enough that your employer decides that since you already have a PC laptop you're now getting a Windows phone and a 'dumb' laptop instead... which will go with terminals at work that are now far cheaper (after all, they now don't have to pay multiple times for CPUs). And they also don't have to bother with storage issues and security. You've got your Lumia XXX and it is biometrically secured and it's your gateway to your cloud-stored data.

At that point I think users may 'get it'. Then it all of a sudden becomes less obvious to lug around a heavy laptop that's expensive when a thin cheaper one that runs off of your mobile makes much more sense. And why would I want to boot up a home entertainment system if I don't have to? I walk in the door and Continuum kicks in automatically and I just tell Cortana to start playing back ESPN or Netflix or whatever, as I place the phone on the charging mat.

I just think it's a matter of time. And to get all of that to work the smartest thing is probably a unified OS. The heavier apps I agree won't be affected, but I think it'll be more a matter of the average consumer leaving desktops and laptops behind and people like me still using them.

at the same time, the UI of Android (and iOS) is a lot more similar to Windows desktop than Windows phone's UI is to Windows desktop.

Sure, I'm of the opinion though that programmers probably are smart enough to take advantage of touch features and gui when it makes sense, and leave it alone when it doesn't. If I understand correctly the idea is that coding in UWP will allow apps to scale easily between screen sizes. So I would expect there to be no problem with a consistent gui. Really the only question is regarding legacy software, but then again I'm guessing again that they can retain their desktop-centric gui and that's fine. After all, if they're heavy enough to require that horsepower then they'll be inside computers that have keyboard/mouse attached to them anyway...





.....sorry, too much text..

 

[Sheamartin]

I love my Icon. But every time I want an app, it's not there. I'd love wifi cameras in home/office but no W10 apps yet. So I am still holding out hope that WP will get some traction or companies will at least have web based options.
I've also jumped into the entire world (xbox, MS Band) so it's a bummer to have to change to another ecosystem. Holding out some slim hope that there will be a Surface Phone and then that Verizon will actually offer it.

 

[Richard Toft]

Seems like a lot of news got dumped this week on the W10 Mobile front. Most of it ambiguous, some of it a let down.

How is everyone feeling about this? We've got the Galaxy S8 Microsoft Edition, an announcment that most Windows Phones have been axed from future updates (normally this is routine news but with it's 2-year update cycle that is a lot of now axed models), and even Windows Central seems to be a bit on edge with the UWP article (which was extremely well written IMO).

Do you think this is a sign of things to come? Is MS just wiping the slate clean before they take their next mobile step? What the heck has this week made you feel in regards to W10 Mobile and how MS is handling it?

 

[toshdellapenna]

I'm not worried about it. I've been with Windows Mobile since it was called Pocket Pc 2002 and have rolled through the punches since. So no worries here! Windows on arm is on the way so all is well here. For the die hard that will only use win 10 mobile I'm sure a rom will eventually find its way to xda. For me I'm planning on following the evolution as I always have and will move to a "cellular pc" for my next device.

 

[mstabes]

If you don't use apps. WP is the OS of choice.

 

[Richard Toft]

I cant see how Microsoft can really walk away from Mobile, Mobile is supposed to be the future so why bother with all the work on windows 10? Windows Mobile is dead(ish) but will all the tech leads saying the future is mobile devices then maybe the future of Windows on Phones (Sorry mobile devices) is Windows 10 cloud.

 

[AlexxX0811]

Sometime it make me depress that in future we'll never get Windows mobile updates or any new features or OS support from Microsoft. Because seriously, having Microsoft Lumia Phone and using it is a very different experience and it gives quality experience to all users that's why all of us (windows phone lovers ) love Lumia series and looking forward for surface phones and still want to buy if Microsoft will ever launch it. Yes, I agree that Microsoft have had some wrong decisions for its Mobile division but I still enjoy using Windows Phone. I seriously love my phone and I'll never quit using it even if is outdated or company will restrict the support.

 

[Teorias]

/me slaps teorias with a large trout.

Yes it makes me go back my irc days when everything was simple

 

[Sedp23]

Seems like a lot of news got dumped this week on the W10 Mobile front. Most of it ambiguous, some of it a let down.

How is everyone feeling about this? We've got the Galaxy S8 Microsoft Edition, an announcment that most Windows Phones have been axed from future updates (normally this is routine news but with it's 2-year update cycle that is a lot of now axed models), and even Windows Central seems to be a bit on edge with the UWP article (which was extremely well written IMO).

Do you think this is a sign of things to come? Is MS just wiping the slate clean before they take their next mobile step? What the heck has this week made you feel in regards to W10 Mobile and how MS is handling it?

Seems to be mostly gloom and doom. I still like the OS, my big drawback is the lack of support on our facebook apps which will probably be the reason i switch to android. No updates in at least 5 months while everyone else is getting the latest updates and new features while we still can't go live or video call on messenger.

Even if i did switch I would keep my Idol and keep a eye on the development and see what they end up doing with mobile. Would love to see apps and developer support on mobile..but we will see what happens but as of right now things aren't looking good...

I will say seeing them mention Windows 10 on arm for phones in yesterdays update was a slight glimmer of hope.

Hope they talk more on mobile SOON

 

[lephilou]

I think MS should have never stopped selling phones, people who are on Android and IPhone are just unaware people,
Windows phone are the best compromise money can get with the most solid and secure software and hardware,

Even just a Lumia 650 with little improvements at a reasonnable price every year would have been a great sign for the community...

When they will start selling 800$ phones they will have new problems,

3 ecosystems is the least we should have, maybe advertising on security, reliability and give more opportunity to try their system would have make Windows Mobile the success it deserved...

 

[davebwi]

I updated my Lumia 950 with the latest .183 software, it works great and very fast.
I even updated my older Lumia 830.. It also works awesome... dont understand why its not on the list for future updates?