Rethinking History

[palandri]

A major meteor storm is predicted for May 23-24 due to the earth passing through debris left by comet 209P/LINEAR There could be up to 1000 shooting stars an hour.

May Meteor Storm Alert: All Eyes on the Sky!

 

[palandri]

Tonight on Cosmos: "The Lost Worlds Of Planet Earth" Examining the autobiography of the earth. Geologist Marie Tharp creates the first map of the ocean floor and finds microscopic life.

 

[muneshyne21]

Just had a cool conversation with my dad and step mom about random stuff including science and faith.
I realized:
-That it takes faith to do science (faith in an answer or explanation and a cause for things. Faith that there is something that makes things tick and that it isn't just magic)
-Even though science is made to eliminate the need for faith (because we wouldn't need to take anyone's word for it since there are documented studies/tests to prove they work).
-Strangely enough science just increases our faith because the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know.

The national debate sometimes seems to pit one against the other even though they are both essential to each other. I wish we could get back to the symbiotic relationship we had with the two. We would be so much more productive as a civilization and, in a sense, it would bring us closer to God (or Gods or whatever you believe in)

 

[N_LaRUE]

Just had a cool conversation with my dad and step mom about random stuff including science and faith.
I realized:
-That it takes faith to do science (faith in an answer or explanation and a cause for things. Faith that there is something that makes things tick and that it isn't just magic)
-Even though science is made to eliminate the need for faith (because we wouldn't need to take anyone's word for it since there are documented studies/tests to prove they work).
-Strangely enough science just increases our faith because the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know.

The national debate sometimes seems to pit one against the other even though they are both essential to each other. I wish we could get back to the symbiotic relationship we had with the two. We would be so much more productive as a civilization and, in a sense, it would bring us closer to God (or Gods or whatever you believe in)

I'd rather not get into this discussion personally. It will end up upsetting people either way.

In my opinion, science doesn't eliminate faith, it's up to the individual to decide what 'faith' is to them. There is no 'faith' in science. Only answers to questions. What you personally get out of those answers is up to you but in my opinion what the answer is has nothing to do with faith or a supernatural being or whatever you wish to call it. If we always leave the unanswered question as 'god did it' then science would be pointless and would never have advanced as we have.

I can give you a whole run down of what I mean but there's no point going this direction in this thread as it's not about this topic. A simple way to look at thing is this, to me anyway, we may not know all the answers, we may never know them, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to know. That's science. The gaps continue to be closed and made smaller and smaller.

 

[muneshyne21]

I'd rather not get into this discussion personally. It will end up upsetting people either way.

In my opinion, science doesn't eliminate faith, it's up to the individual to decide what 'faith' is to them. There is no 'faith' in science. Only answers to questions. What you personally get out of those answers is up to you but in my opinion what the answer is has nothing to do with faith or a supernatural being or whatever you wish to call it. If we always leave the unanswered question as 'god did it' then science would be pointless and would never have advanced as we have.

I can give you a whole run down of what I mean but there's no point going this direction in this thread as it's not about this topic. A simple way to look at thing is this, to me anyway, we may not know all the answers, we may never know them, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to know. That's science. The gaps continue to be closed and made smaller and smaller.

I guess Im using the term "faith" loosely. Im not a praying man myself but what I mean is that you have to believe there is an explanation to things. You need faith that there is an answer. Faith that your hypothesis makes sense. If you didnt believe there is a reasonable explanation/method then you wouldn't even try to figure it out. I think in the beginning of most innovations (like the first plane or the telephone) where the actual science/technology was still uncertain and untested, a great deal of faith was required to prove it could be done. Im pretty sure the Wright brother that was on the first flight was praying like a mofo to not die.
My post above is more of a philosophical observation than a religious argument. Science uses the mechanism of faith to expand our knowledge and curiosity of the great expanse which can also lead to a growth in spirituality as well.
I know the trolling I could induce by creating an Organized Religion thread so I will stick to our cool sciency/discuss the universe thread instead. I really, really, really want to post UFO related things on here but I fear this discussion may turn into little green men x-files rants.

 

[muneshyne21]

Huge cylindrical UFO captured by Mars Curiosity Rover - Honolulu exopolitics | Examiner.com

Ok couldnt resist. Here's one to discuss.

-Its not exposure times
-each of the 5 shots was 2 minutes apart. This object was observed for a total of 10 minutes.
-It took a very linear consistent path downwards.
-There is a strange black patch that seems to follow it below and right of it (some kind of reflection or lens glitch?)
-Another separate picture shows that a moon was passing by around the same time I think but cant find the link to the picture
-no official explanation from NASA yet...I think.

 

[N_LaRUE]

I guess Im using the term "faith" loosely. Im not a praying man myself but what I mean is that you have to believe there is an explanation to things. You need faith that there is an answer. Faith that your hypothesis makes sense. If you didnt believe there is a reasonable explanation/method then you wouldn't even try to figure it out. I think in the beginning of most innovations (like the first plane or the telephone) where the actual science/technology was still uncertain and untested, a great deal of faith was required to prove it could be done. Im pretty sure the Wright brother that was on the first flight was praying like a mofo to not die.
My post above is more of a philosophical observation than a religious argument. Science uses the mechanism of faith to expand our knowledge and curiosity of the great expanse which can also lead to a growth in spirituality as well.
I know the trolling I could induce by creating an Organized Religion thread so I will stick to our cool sciency/discuss the universe thread instead. I really, really, really want to post UFO related things on here but I fear this discussion may turn into little green men x-files rants.

To be blunt, I don't like the word faith and science in the same sentence. It easy to misconstrue and misunderstand your point, as I obviously did. Still, I will disagree with you. I'm not saying some things were not simply a guess at being right but most experiments fail but even failure brings information.

The thing to understand is this. Science works and it works well. When things are wrong they get corrected. When things don't make sense the get questioned. Argument is a big part of science. Honesty is the second part. Admitting when you're wrong is very humbling and an honest scientist will do that. Acknowledging when you don't know something is the right thing for a scientist to do. Unfortunately people see this as a weakness.

That's why I don't like the word 'faith' as it has very little do with it.

 

[palandri]

Huge cylindrical UFO captured by Mars Curiosity Rover - Honolulu exopolitics | Examiner.com

Ok couldnt resist. Here's one to discuss.

-Its not exposure times
-each of the 5 shots was 2 minutes apart. This object was observed for a total of 10 minutes.
-It took a very linear consistent path downwards.
-There is a strange black patch that seems to follow it below and right of it (some kind of reflection or lens glitch?)
-Another separate picture shows that a moon was passing by around the same time I think but cant find the link to the picture
-no official explanation from NASA yet...I think.

LOL! I am watching the History channel right now and it's Brad Meltzer's Decoded about UFO's It's a mathmatical impossibility that there isn't other life outside of earth.

I have no idea what that object is. I do still wonder about the face on Mars.

 

[N_LaRUE]

LOL! I am watching the History channel right now and it's Brad Meltzer's Decoded about UFO's It's a mathmatical impossibility that there isn't other life outside of earth.

I have no idea what that object is. I do still wonder about the face on Mars.

I don't disagree with the idea of life outside this planet. As stated by many scientist it seems illogical if there wasn't. The question is, how much intelligent life is out there.

The face rock is just that, a rock. Cydonia (region of Mars) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As humans we have a tendency to look for faces. It's only natural. Have you never stared at something on a floor or some scribbles and saw a face?

 

[muneshyne21]

That's why I don't like the word 'faith' as it has very little do with it.

Ok, ok, I wont use the term faith because it has religious implications. How about "Belief in Something". It could be as simple as a belief that they can complete their experiment regardless of the outcome. Even the term "hope" can work. I'm using these terms to describe the motivating force to do science not to describe how science is conducted

I have no idea what that object is. I do still wonder about the face on Mars.

I had such a UFO geek ***** when that picture came out. It was sad to eventually see more detailed pictures of the rock formation. Those black dots are actually missing data from the picture. One just happens to be perfectly placed to look like a nostril. The rest is just perfect angles of the sun casting shadows. The Curiosity rover is getting me excited again because of the higher resolution images that can be taken.

 

[palandri]

Potential cultural impact of extraterrestrial contact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[palandri]

I don't disagree with the idea of life outside this planet. As stated by many scientist it seems illogical if there wasn't. The question is, how much intelligent life is out there.

The face rock is just that, a rock. Cydonia (region of Mars) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As humans we have a tendency to look for faces. It's only natural. Have you never stared at something on a floor or some scribbles and saw a face?

I can't remember who said it, but I remember someone saying, even if there's intelligent life on one planet circling every trillionth star, there's a lot of intelligent life out there. Given how big the universe is, it makes sense mathematically.

I watched the first Viking live when the face on Mars was first seen. I am still not convinced it was all shadows.

Maybe I am not creative enough, but I really don't see scribbles as a face.

I still wonder how fast we became human. How did our DNA change so quickly. Was it just evolution or did an alien change it. i don't know, nor does anyone else know for sure. i would think evolution, but who knows.

 

[N_LaRUE]

Ok, ok, I wont use the term faith because it has religious implications. How about "Belief in Something". It could be as simple as a belief that they can complete their experiment regardless of the outcome. Even the term "hope" can work. I'm using these terms to describe the motivating force to do science not to describe how science is conducted

First allow me to apologise as I may have been on the grumpy side yesterday. I'm not trying to be mean here.

There are people who seem to take issue with science being as good as it is and keep trying to knock it down to the same level as religion and use the same words you used. Which is why I take issue with them. I get where you're coming from but you're talking more about secondary emotions rather than why people want to do science in the first place. It can be summed up in one word even. It's called 'curiosity'. A desire to know. A good scientist views the world in questions.

Science rides on the back of previous knowledge but continues to question everything. That's what science does. To the lay person like me, science provides facts about the world, life and the universe and will continue to do so. Simply because it works.

I'm quite comfortable with what science tells me, even if it doesn't comfort me. Hope that makes sense.

 

[N_LaRUE]

I can't remember who said it, but I remember someone saying, even if there's intelligent life on one planet circling every trillionth star, there's a lot of intelligent life out there. Given how big the universe is, it makes sense mathematically.

I watched the first Viking live when the face on Mars was first seen. I am still not convinced it was all shadows.

I don't disagree that intelligent life doesn't exist elsewhere. It would seem logical. We just know it's a rare occurrence. Even on this planet, depending on what you mean by 'intelligent' there is only one species on this planet in the 4.5 billion years that has broken the 'animal' mode and gone on to do other things.

Maybe I am not creative enough, but I really don't see scribbles as a face.

I can see shapes in all kinds of things. I've done it since I was young. Funnily enough I have trouble with those hidden 3D images in art, if you know what I'm referring to.

I still wonder how fast we became human. How did our DNA change so quickly. Was it just evolution or did an alien change it. i don't know, nor does anyone else know for sure. i would think evolution, but who knows.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In what way was our DNA changed quickly? In what way did we become human fast? As far as I know this isn't an issue in evolutionary science or any of the books or articles I've read on it. Is there a link to information concerning this? I've heard the occasional comment by people who question evolution that aliens or a supernatural being had to have something to do with humans coming about because it simply couldn't happen 'naturally'. There's no evidence as far as I know that indicates otherwise.

 

[palandri]

I don't disagree that intelligent life doesn't exist elsewhere. It would seem logical. We just know it's a rare occurrence. Even on this planet, depending on what you mean by 'intelligent' there is only one species on this planet in the 4.5 billion years that has broken the 'animal' mode and gone on to do other things.



I can see shapes in all kinds of things. I've done since I was young. Funnily enough I have trouble with those hidden 3D images in art, if you know what I'm referring to.



I'm not sure what you mean here. In what way was our DNA changed quickly? In what way did we become human fast? As far as I know this isn't an issue in evolutionary science or any of the books or articles I've read on it. Is there a link to information concerning this? I've heard the occasional comment by people who question evolution that aliens or a supernatural being had to have something to do with humans coming about because it simply couldn't happen 'naturally'. There's no evidence as far as I know that indicates otherwise.

I am just throwing some wild thoughts out there. Do we really know how DNA molecules first appeared? A few people have suggested that DNA came from elsewhere, but the bottom line is I don't disagree with evolution or Dawkins.

 

[N_LaRUE]

I am just throwing some wild thoughts out there. Do we really know how DNA molecules first appeared? A few people have suggested that DNA came from elsewhere, but the bottom line is I don't disagree with evolution or Dawkins.

Dawkins is but one scientist in many who agree that evolution is the only way things came about. Another good book on evolution is by Jerry Coyne, Why Evolution Is True.

The beginning of life is a tricky one. For all we know there were several different strands running at the same time and only one had the fidelity to continue. Is DNA the standard in the universe? Is it evolved from RNA? We'll probably create life in the lab in the coming years, however that probably won't explain everything.

I think the idea of DNA coming from elsewhere goes with the theory that life in microscopic form is abundant in the universe. The idea is that when Earth filled with water, the method is still in question but current science indicates asteroid impacts, there was life already with it.

Thing is, when we talk about life and non life most people have trouble realizing the blurry line between the two. It's a lot more blurry then most people would be comfortable with.

 

[muneshyne21]

Maybe I am not creative enough, but I really don't see scribbles as a face.

What really keeps me from fully embracing the face or several other intriguing things spotted on Mars are the odds of it being natural. In a sense, spotting what we think are man made objects on Mars is like a Earth Rorschach test. We pic the things that look familiar to us. Kinda like finding clouds that look like animals. As an example, you can probably find a ton of natural faces using Google Earth if you look at all the mountain regions. The same goes with the grid-like, pyramid or circular anomalies found on Mars's surface. My rule of thumb is if we have it on Earth naturally, then it can naturally be created on Mars since it did have water at some point to erode things. Because the gravity is less over there, the scales of these things might have been larger. That doesnt mean I dont want them to be alien made but Im trying to keep a level head here

First allow me to apologise as I may have been on the grumpy side yesterday. I'm not trying to be mean here.

Haha, no offense taken at all. Curiosity is definitely the mother of science.

 

[palandri]

What really keeps me from fully embracing the face or several other intriguing things spotted on Mars are the odds of it being natural. In a sense, spotting what we think are man made objects on Mars is like a Earth Rorschach test. We pic the things that look familiar to us. Kinda like finding clouds that look like animals. As an example, you can probably find a ton of natural faces using Google Earth if you look at all the mountain regions. The same goes with the grid-like, pyramid or circular anomalies found on Mars's surface. My rule of thumb is if we have it on Earth naturally, then it can naturally be created on Mars since it did have water at some point to erode things. Because the gravity is less over there, the scales of these things might have been larger. That doesnt mean I dont want them to be alien made but Im trying to keep a level head here ...

I understand what you're saying. I've also seen numerous other pictures from Mars where people have pointed out skulls, or statues...etc..., but they all needed an extreme imagination. Now the face on Mars, that didn't take any imagination. :grin:

 

[N_LaRUE]

I understand what you're saying. I've also seen numerous other pictures from Mars where people have pointed out skulls, or statues...etc..., but they all needed an extreme imagination. Now the face on Mars, that didn't take any imagination. :grin:

There's a great YouTube video that I like and would link to if I could. It's about how our mind works with regards to belief. It's by a psychologist. Very interesting stuff.

The reason why I suggest it is it deals with our visualization. Which is part of the reason why you see the face on Mars.

If you're interested (as I can't link from my work computer) the video is called Why we believe by Andy Thompson. It's a talk he did at a convention. There might be some things said that you may not agree with (a bit of a warning) but the content is great all the same. The science behind the talk is very fascinating and still being worked on. It will cause issues in the US for sure.

I like controversial topics.

 

[Laura Knotek]

I think the idea of DNA coming from elsewhere goes with the theory that life in microscopic form is abundant in the universe. The idea is that when Earth filled with water, the method is still in question but current science indicates asteroid impacts, there was life already with it.

Sounds like you are partially describing the endosymbiotic theory, which Lynn Margulis described in On the origin of mitosing cells and in Symbiosis in Cell Evolution. Margulis proposed that eukaryotes evolved via cooperation between various prokaryotes.