Scared of the direction of WP.

[michail71]

I've followed Windows Phone since February 2010, so don't pull the "you just don't get it" card on me. I do get it, and it's not anywhere as good as you make it out to be.

Live Tiles are fair. Much of their functional benefit can be replicated by widgets. I prefer tiles for consistency and they are a standard for all apps to support, so there is arguably an edge here. I wouldn't call it a killer feature, but a respectable alternative.

Oh man, I can't believe you just brought up hubs. They are the biggest disappointment of Windows Phone, the most promising yet least invested in concept. They were a focus in pre-launch 2010 but Microsoft has completely backed away from promoting them. They are underutilised and really, which ones shine? Am I supposed to applaud at the Photos hub providing me a list of shortcuts to photo-related apps? Because that's what the integration there amounts to.

If you're touting integration with Facebook & Twitter, you must be living in the past. Android provides the APIs for any app, and iOS integrates with Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and Vimeo.

I agree. I completely understand Microsoft's design direction and use many of them in my own development work. But I feel like they always get 90% there and then don't go further. They also tend to forget the power/advanced users in the process.

Let's see some agile software techniques being used in release cycles!

 

[hopmedic]

RIP glance and go.....

 

[nohra]

I'm as much a fan of Windows Phone as the next person, but I'm not scared of notification center if it would mean we get a notification light like galaxy has (different colors for different notifications). I'll be honest that there isn't much that Android has that I yearn for, but there is two; this notification light so I don't even have to turn on the screen to see if I have missed calls or messages (meaning I don't see Glance as being the same thing), and two is offline dictation apps. These are the only two things I've seen on Android phones that's impressed me.

I'm not keen on the possibility of all the swiping actions. I wouldn't mind swiping left-to-right on start screen doing something (like a list of recent used apps or link to a user-defined app, as in, swipe right on start takes me to games), but outside of that, I just feel it's more stuff for users to have to remember. One of WPs hallmarks has been and should be ease of use. I like the X to close apps from the app browser, it's simple and intuitive, but I can see how people who use W8 might want a way similar to close programs (I'm still XP/W7).

 

[Ek-Balam]

I believe that your comment loses site of the bigger picture. Most of these type requests (file manager, email attachment, notification center, alerts, etal.), are from users that have a work flow / use flow model that can not now be serviced by WP8. Not all users (and more importantly, potential adopters) making these requests are, as you state "power user techies". The 0.0001% you state and that care enough to follow these type forums are only representative of the true demand for these type functionalities.

I would submit that there are a goodly number of users that fall into the category of use model that prioritizes a smartphone as a productivity tool first and not just a entertainment / media consumption device. This notion is bared out by the fact that some marketing reports show that some 41% of current smartphone users in a 2012 survey, use their phones primarily as business tools with another 12% claiming that business / personal use priority is about equal (a bit larger than than 0.0001%). If we can assume that that these number are even close to accurate,the added OS funtionallities needed to address this segment are frustratingly missing from WP8. Further proof of this is the startling and ironic lack of users attempting to or clamoring for bringing their WP8 devices to BYOD enterprise use. Ironic because MS is (arguably) the most influential player in enterprise technologies and solutions.

For MS and WP to truly gain the market share and ecosystem health they need for critical mass (>10% market share is not critical mass), the OS functionality needed to this 41% can not and should not be ignored. Moreover, MS and WP have the , money, the ability and the technology to service both / all usage models and give current, and again, more importantly, potential users the powerful differentiation of all - choice!

 

[Chris_Kez]

Are we talking about the same things? The right-left action is different than the split-screen action. I was answering the question about right-left.
There are three left-swipe actions in Windows 8. 1) Flick in... 2) Swipe in... 3) Swipe in, then reverse direction...(One can then flick... or drag, pause, and release)

There's one more. When you swipe in you can in motion drag down to close the app. Same can be done from the preview / multi tasking vertical bar.

No wonder so many people complained about discoverability when Windows 8 was released. And on a phone?!? Who could possibly use edge-based multi-gesture touch on a 5" device, running an OS built around panorama+pivot apps? I don't think a deaf magician would have fingers dextrous enough to enjoy such a system.

 

[brunoadduarte]

No wonder so many people complained about discoverability when Windows 8 was released. And on a phone?!? Who could possibly use edge-based multi-gesture touch on a 5" device, running an OS built around panorama+pivot apps? I don't think a deaf magician would have fingers dextrous enough to enjoy such a system.

The problem there is the existence of 5'' screened devices... Which I'm yet to understand the need for them apart from the hype created by Samsung and the likes.

An edge-based multi-gesture touch UI can work perfectly and would be the future. I have never been so fast operating my phone as I was with my N9. Edge swipe from left to right on the homescreen, had me on the notifications and feed screen. Tap on one item would bring me to the respective app and allow me to do what I needed; swipe downwards would close said app; swipe from right to left, had me on the multitasking screen to do whatever I needed, etc, etc. It was a breeze. The N9 had lots of problems but in that aspect it was simply genius and I'll never have a phone like that again (sadly).

 

[Chris_Kez]

So sliding the screen left or right is easy (for notifications) or whatever they plan to do but flicking your finger in an upward motion is 'difficult'...
I've seem to have figured out a way to arrange my screen that works for me. However other people seem to find this a hard task...
WP is different for a reason and people coming over from Android just haven't seemed to have sorted that out yet. It's not about stagnation, it's about keeping the platform the way it should be. Sleek and modern.

You seem to just not want to hear that there are real and valid complaints about how notifications and toasts simply do not work for a lot of users. You don't have to be a "power user" or Android convert to end up in a situation where you're missing notifications that you'd rather not miss, or you find yourself needing to scroll, wait for flip, scroll, wait for flip, scroll, wait for flip. I actually have spent a fair amount of time carefully arranging my start screen to reach my own optimal mix of information density, convenience and aesthetics. It takes a good deal of time to get there, and then it has to be occasionally tweaked as needs change (which is part of the beauty of the Start screen). But if we're going to beat the drum about sleek, modern, simple, fast, easy- then we need to recognize that for a lot of people (or for a lot of times/places) the option to view a straight up notification center is by far simpler, sleeker and easier. One of the goals of flat design and a "digitally native" presentation is precisely to put information front and center- to not make the design and presentation the focus. Live tiles are not the be-all and end-all; if they're made into sacred cows, then WP will ossify and the platform will stop being modern.

WP was always about minimalism and simple stuff. Power users aren't majority of smartphone users but seems their moaning and groaning one day will make WP a beautiful yet ugly android clone...
If you knew WP since it's birth, you would know - what live tiles does. I totally agree with everyone out there defending live tiles.
Highly requested feature being a notification is obvious thing and sad thing. Because people are migrating from Android, they want what they had on Android...
...what Joe and Steve told us on stage about WP when they launched it - the hubs, the panorama, the app to app talk, the integration, the live tiles - these are what we know WP by and this was its true identity.

Hubs - never heard of it since 2010.
Panorama - apps are killing it under their "official" design - yes facebook.
Integration - Microsoft slow as snail - yes Skype.
Live tiles - notification centre, really!?

So I totally understand everyone's frustration at a notification making its way on a WP. It's definitely shaping and developing the platform, it will grow as a big family but it will change what WP was meant to be.

Alright, let's not get too caught up in some creation myth about Windows Phone, and it's purity of vision. I'd be willing to bet that if they'd had significantly more resources back in 2008-10 to fully develop this OS there would have been a different implementation of notifications. Tiles would have been there as a unique point of differentiation, but they probably wouldn't have been the only thing. I would bet that a lot of restrictions on WP are simply software limitations rather than design choices (e.g. no full-res image emails; no large file downloads over cellular; 30 minute refresh limit; you have too many background tasks). Anyway, MS can improve notifications without sacrificing the WP experience; and they should. Not everyone asking for better notifications is a former Android user. I've never used Android, and I barely ever used the iOS notifications- but I certainly appreciate the need for improvements in this area on WP.

Look, I'm still somewhat concerned about WP and their direction- but it is not because of notification center; it is actually the seeming abandonment of hubs and the continued lock-down of APIs. I think the APIs may open up as the OS matures, but Hubs likely require a more passionate strategic commitment (and cooperation of partners). I'll be really disappointed if the hubs are not expanded in WP8.1 to include more of the apps we've landed this year. Having the stand-alone apps brings parity; integrating them provides differentiation. If WP doesn't continue in that direction, it will be sad indeed.

 

[michail71]

... or you find yourself needing to scroll, wait for flip, scroll, wait for flip, scroll, wait for flip. I actually have spent a fair amount of time carefully arranging my start screen to reach my own optimal mix of information density, convenience and aesthetics.

You mentioned another annoyance of mine. I think this falls on the developers just not paying attention to usability. There should be no reason to flip if one of the tiles does not contain any useful information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mmcpher]

Multi-tasking, even in the smartphone/smallscreen context, is important to me. With a phone the size of the 1520, the possibility of useful split screen functionality should make it more important. As it is on smaller-screened phones, even having to go to the comparatively labored process of minimizing one app, maximizing another app running in the background, selecting some text or object, then cutting and pasting, is a site better than having to open and close and the reopen all the time. I know WP isn't all that it can be yet, but in my long experience with MS software, it always gets better and MS never stops working on it -- something you can miss in all the chafe surrounding MS software. I do think as WP matures, MS will get faster and more frequent with upgrades, which will be all to the good.

 

[LP Slade]

I think that sometimes, notifications aren't necessary, or at least they can be improved. For instance, it drives me batty when a notification comes up on Facebook Beta when someone replies to a post and it keeps appearing every other second for around a full minute. I absolutely hate it, especially if I'm doing something else like playing Wordament and want to see my score. The notification just STAYS up there exactly where I would have to look to see it. I'd rather see notifications in the center of the screen and not appearing every other second for a full minute or whatnot.

You can swipe notifications off of the screen ... just an FYI. Please note, though, that I have GDR3 and only recently discovered this feature so I don't know if it's only available in the release or for WP8 in general.

 

[LP Slade]

I don't know about Android as I've never used it, but on iOS you can specify the type of notification every single app provides, including NO notification. This includes the notification center. You can specify whether notifications for a specific app can even appear in the notification center. If something similar were implemented in WP8, I would be elated. I'm not, by any means, a casual mobile user, though.

 

[AngryNil]

RIP glance and go.....

Let's see, which is more glance and go?

• A compact list of my recent messages that could be expanded by default, or expanded with one tap. They could also be actionable in 1-2 taps.
• Scrolling through a bunch of low information density tiles with mere previews of messages. You have to open each individual app and navigate to the messages manually to read or act on them.

Tired mantras, tired mantras.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You talk about marching forward, but as far as I can tell, I think it's a step back when I had to restart my 928 more times in a week than I had with my Trophy in 6 months. Why do we need quad core processors when single and dual worked fine .. especially when batteries are stagnated.

Well, I'm glad there are people out there who don't think like you do, because they get things done and make things better. Rebooting is not a function of additional features, that's a straw man. There has been no breakthrough in battery technology, true, but new hardware is not horribly inefficient. It seems WP has a battery drain problem for some and that's an issue that needs to be addressed. Nokia needs to start putting large batteries in their phones like the rest of the industry, and the 1320 / 1520 are encouraging in that regard. You want a better chipset because apps load slow, because taking pictures on the 1020 is slow, because games have low framerates.

 

[ominaxe]

Look, I'm still somewhat concerned about WP and their direction- but it is not because of notification center; it is actually the seeming abandonment of hubs and the continued lock-down of APIs. I think the APIs may open up as the OS matures, but Hubs likely require a more passionate strategic commitment (and cooperation of partners). I'll be really disappointed if the hubs are not expanded in WP8.1 to include more of the apps we've landed this year. Having the stand-alone apps brings parity; integrating them provides differentiation. If WP doesn't continue in that direction, it will be sad indeed.

I think therein lies the issue with this push for a notification center. The problem I had with the notification center wasn't because it wasn't 'pure' or whatever, but because of what you're saying here, this falling out of hubs. If hubs were better integrated like Microsoft had originally intended, there would be no NEED for a notification center. If they stuck with their original vision and put more effort into aggregation of live-tiles, I don't think there would be a need for this half-baked, half-assed notification center.

Because I'm not a power user, I have all my information I need on the start screen without scrolling (granted, some of those things on the start screen don't have the live tiles). I don't want MS to play with something that works perfectly for me as is. And yes, I know you said previously that it's no skin off my back whether I choose to use it or not, but that's the thing, all these changes in WP8 has taken skin off my back when the phone doesn't work as well as it once did. The bugginess that has been added to the platform by adding all these new things are really interfering with my day to day use with constant restarts and shut downs, something that never EVER existed in WP7.

Well, I'm glad there are people out there who don't think like you do, because they get things done and make things better.

In that case I can see why you're so angry. You're constantly remarking that MS isn't doing anything new..
Then when they do make changes, they're causing more problems (as you mention with battery drain, dropped framerates, sluggishness).
But because they're not doing anything new as you say and doing things at a slow pace, they aren't fixing these new problems that keep popping up.


... And you're right that there are people that think differently out there, and that's a good thing. People like me push for refinement, people like you push for development. Your answer is to throw more at it to solve the problem, my answer is to refine what we have to solve the problem.

That's the whole reason Intel follows the TICK-TOCK development theory. The ticks working on refinement, the tocks working on development.. The problem with Microsoft is that they're just tock-tocking all over the place right now: Pushing out updates to get the 1080P screen, to get the quad cores, to get the notification center, all without really fixing the underlying issues and keeping their vision.. I want some ticks, I want WP8 to be as reliable and lean as my WP7 device was, and they're just not doing that.

I feel like this is Skype all over again. I felt like they just keep throwing features onto Skype without any refinement. They switched from MSN Messenger into Skype with TERRIBLE integration and syncing. Then threw a terrible application onto the phone just to get it out there. They need to make it REFINED first before they push things.

I don't know why I think of this metaphor, but I feel like MS is stacking boxes, but they're just stacking with no rhyme or reason, just trying to get as many boxes on there as they can .. it's getting messy, cluttered, and unbalanced. They need to organize them so they're stacked nicely before it keeps falling over.

 

[techiez]

I think therein lies the issue with this push for a notification center. The problem I had with the notification center wasn't because it wasn't 'pure' or whatever, but because of what you're saying here, this falling out of hubs. If hubs were better integrated like Microsoft had originally intended, there would be no NEED for a notification center. If they stuck with their original vision and put more effort into aggregation of live-tiles, I don't think there would be a need for this half-baked, half-assed notification center.

Because I'm not a power user, I have all my information I need on the start screen without scrolling (granted, some of those things on the start screen don't have the live tiles). I don't want MS to play with something that works perfectly for me as is. And yes, I know you said previously that it's no skin off my back whether I choose to use it or not, but that's the thing, all these changes in WP8 has taken skin off my back when the phone doesn't work as well as it once did. The bugginess that has been added to the platform by adding all these new things are really interfering with my day to day use with constant restarts and shut downs, something that never EVER existed in WP7.



In that case I can see why you're so angry. You're constantly remarking that MS isn't doing anything new..
Then when they do make changes, they're causing more problems (as you mention with battery drain, dropped framerates, sluggishness).
But because they're not doing anything new as you say and doing things at a slow pace, they aren't fixing these new problems that keep popping up.


... And you're right that there are people that think differently out there, and that's a good thing. People like me push for refinement, people like you push for development. Your answer is to throw more at it to solve the problem, my answer is to refine what we have to solve the problem.

That's the whole reason Intel follows the TICK-TOCK development theory. The ticks working on refinement, the tocks working on development.. The problem with Microsoft is that they're just tock-tocking all over the place right now: Pushing out updates to get the 1080P screen, to get the quad cores, to get the notification center, all without really fixing the underlying issues and keeping their vision.. I want some ticks, I want WP8 to be as reliable and lean as my WP7 device was, and they're just not doing that.

I feel like this is Skype all over again. I felt like they just keep throwing features onto Skype without any refinement. They switched from MSN Messenger into Skype with TERRIBLE integration and syncing. Then threw a terrible application onto the phone just to get it out there. They need to make it REFINED first before they push things.

I don't know why I think of this metaphor, but I feel like MS is stacking boxes, but they're just stacking with no rhyme or reason, just trying to get as many boxes on there as they can .. it's getting messy, cluttered, and unbalanced. They need to organize them so they're stacked nicely before it keeps falling over.

+1000 for the TICK part.

As Joe Belfiore had tweeted in past that their focus with GDR2/GDR3 was to enable new hardware, I agree that is important but you also need to fix the bugs, there are many bugs that irritate daily users and these existed since long and there is no sight of the solution yet, ppl have high expectations from WP8.1(I dont) and If MS doesnt live upto expectation they can see their existing users walk away, they've been given a very long rope till now.

 

[techiez]

You can swipe notifications off of the screen ... just an FYI. Please note, though, that I have GDR3 and only recently discovered this feature so I don't know if it's only available in the release or for WP8 in general.

It was always there but imagine the frustration if you are playing a game and you have a slew of notifications and you just keep on sliding them out and they keep comin at you.

 

[Huime]

the only thing concerns me is that the Dev team sees this and mistaken that majority of the users wants a dumb phone and eventually cancels all the improvements in the works.

 

[AngryNil]

In that case I can see why you're so angry. You're constantly remarking that MS isn't doing anything new..
Then when they do make changes, they're causing more problems (as you mention with battery drain, dropped framerates, sluggishness).
But because they're not doing anything new as you say and doing things at a slow pace, they aren't fixing these new problems that keep popping up.

I'm stating facts. They are behind iOS and Android yet moving slower than them both, and that's too slow. For goodness' sake, It took them two years (!) to add the ability for developers to have apps resume from tiles. Microsoft doesn't get to play either/or here, no one is going to let it off the hook in functionality because it needs to fix its bugs. It needs to develop and refine faster, and if it can't keep pace with Google and Apple, then we have a problem.

You're now conflating your original point that I took issue with, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". You acted as if Microsoft should purposefully stay in 2011 because everything worked for you then. Sorry, that's not the way things work, unless you're trying to run your company into the ground as swiftly as possible.

 

[tgp]

Because I'm not a power user, I have all my information I need on the start screen without scrolling (granted, some of those things on the start screen don't have the live tiles). I don't want MS to play with something that works perfectly for me as is. And yes, I know you said previously that it's no skin off my back whether I choose to use it or not, but that's the thing, all these changes in WP8 has taken skin off my back when the phone doesn't work as well as it once did. The bugginess that has been added to the platform by adding all these new things are really interfering with my day to day use with constant restarts and shut downs, something that never EVER existed in WP7.

I understand why you don't want Microsoft to change anything if you're happy the way it is. There are lots of people though who don't necessarily agree. I now use my WP as a 2nd phone, but when it was my primary phone, on my primary line, I missed stuff all the time. With iPhone & Android I almost never miss anything. Better or worse, that's the way it went. So without even considering which notification format I prefer, I can say which one did better at getting the job done.

I agree that WP8 has a lot more bugs than WP7. When I first switched, I was ready to throw the 920 in the garbage and go back to my 710. But, the problem is that Live Tiles were, and still are, buggy. I think that the way they're designed as notification is OK in theory, but since they aren't very reliable it creates a problem when they ARE the current notification system.

 

[Jazmac]

I understand why you don't want Microsoft to change anything if you're happy the way it is. There are lots of people though who don't necessarily agree. I now use my WP as a 2nd phone, but when it was my primary phone, on my primary line, I missed stuff all the time. With iPhone & Android I almost never miss anything. Better or worse, that's the way it went. So without even considering which notification format I prefer, I can say which one did better at getting the job done.

I agree that WP8 has a lot more bugs than WP7. When I first switched, I was ready to throw the 920 in the garbage and go back to my 710. But, the problem is that Live Tiles were, and still are, buggy. I think that the way they're designed as notification is OK in theory, but since they aren't very reliable it creates a problem when they ARE the current notification system.

You're WP8 is buggy? More buggy than WP7? The only thing I had issue with are my live tiles but that seems to be resolved after installing Amber but it is not more buggy than WP7. It wasn't buggy either, just deficient and anemic as all get out.

 

[techiez]

You're WP8 is buggy? More buggy than WP7? The only thing I had issue with are my live tiles but that seems to be resolved after installing Amber but it is not more buggy than WP7. It wasn't buggy either, just deficient and anemic as all get out.

push notifications are still a problem for many, and the duplicate songs in xbox is still there and hasnt been resolved as MS claimed after GD2, I'm forced to download my music from nokia music to phone memory instead of SD card and yes I have my xbox cloud sync off so this solution doesnt work, solution offered by ms to this is copy songs to pc, delete from phone and resync, is this a smartphone or a dumb phone.

and there are many other known issues.

and yes I can say WP8 is more buggy then WP7 because WP7 dint have any features at all :grin:, it was feature phone os on steroids thats it