Will Cshell available for all w10m?

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Hi Dan!
After reading the shell article. One thing came into my mind. Will it available for only w10 compatible mobiles including 1gb ram phones or for snap dragon 6xx +?

 

[xandros9]

It either goes on new phones or current ones. They don't code for kicks, it costs money. If you don't think current phones will get it, it's logical you think there will be new phones?....Its kind of a binary situation - either/or.

So reading between the lines, you think there will be new phones, but not "soon"?

Well we're also assuming that Microsoft is being rational and/or isn't playing a long game here. Past mobile and other decisions have shown that we cannot assume these.

I don't think current phones will get it nor do I expect any new hardware save maybe an updated Elite X3, but I'll still be surprised.

I believe this work is being done so they have an adaptable shell on-hand for the future as much of the underlying Windows 10 work has been forward-facing. It's nice to have like how Project Astoria, perhaps unintentionally, was helpful for the Linux Subsystem in desktop 10.

 

[Drael646464]

Well we're also assuming that Microsoft is being rational and/or isn't playing a long game here. Past mobile and other decisions have shown that we cannot assume these.

I don't think current phones will get it nor do I expect any new hardware save maybe an updated Elite X3, but I'll still be surprised.

I believe this work is being done so they have an adaptable shell on-hand for the future as much of the underlying Windows 10 work has been forward-facing. It's nice to have like how Project Astoria, perhaps unintentionally, was helpful for the Linux Subsystem in desktop 10.

Curious. Which past mobile decisions, do you believe shows current CEO lead MSFT to be irrational?

Interesting POV. I'm sure when they developed Astoria, they intended on using it, and then decided it was bad for the ecosystem. It was a part of build code for awhile.

Like a "potential" product.

So I guess that's how you view cshell? - not an essential part of the whole Windows OS on all SKUs, but a "potential" product, which might be intended for new phones, or current phones, but may not nessasarily end up on either of them?

That they may never have any real use for the code.

Basically your assumption is that whatever MSFT is planning in mobile, by default, they aren't entirely sure what they are doing?

 

[xandros9]

Curious. Which past mobile decisions, do you believe shows current CEO lead MSFT to be irrational?

Interesting POV. I'm sure when they developed Astoria, they intended on using it, and then decided it was bad for the ecosystem. It was a part of build code for awhile.

Like a "potential" product.

So I guess that's how you view cshell? - not an essential part of the whole Windows OS on all SKUs, but a "potential" product, which might be intended for new phones, or current phones, but may not nessasarily end up on either of them?

That they may never have any real use for the code.

Basically your assumption is that whatever MSFT is planning in mobile, by default, they aren't entirely sure what they are doing?

You're slightly twisting my words to point at the CEO, but not quite. I'm talking about Microsoft's actions as a company.

Microsoft's mishandling of the OneDrive storage shrink was very poor and not well received.

They flip-flopped on Skype's implementation not once, twice, but at least three times. Not particularly confidence inspiring.

They alienated a solid chunk of their userbase in the transition to WP8 (which I heard and suspected was a sheer marketing decision) and in the transition to W10M, continuing to sell devices as W10M-upgradeable even as they announced that they would be left behind.

There is a solid number of capable devices left on the Anniversary Update because of their age, not because they don't have the hardware to read eBooks or display a new share icon. Which shows that the name of the mobile game right now is "fulfill obligations, but put in minimal effort."

The fact that I forgot to mention earlier is that Windows 10 Mobile doesn't even support current Qualcomm chipsets so I realize that hoping for an updated Elite X3 is pointless as it's already as powerful as MS will allow. Maybe if Windows on ARM becomes more phone-friendly in a couple years. (keyword: "if" )

CShell is likely going to better position Windows in the future, especially on small tablets and is a logical progression of the already adaptable UWP framework.

But yes, I believe Microsoft is without drive and without direction in mobile. Throwing things at the wall internally but as far as us consumers can see, still in "fulfill obligations and wash hands" mode.

 

[Drael646464]

You're slightly twisting my words to point at the CEO, but not quite. I'm talking about Microsoft's actions as a company.

Well, a company is sort of a different creature when its under different leadership. There's always the influence of the board, and sometimes a corporate culture, but the shift from the last, to the present CEO is a significant shift in focus and objective. I'm not sure I think of MSFT, as a singular time spanning entity in that way, but something that sort of evolves and changes,. There are some things in common, but some change too.

The past does not always predict the future.

They alienated a solid chunk of their userbase in the transition to WP8 (which I heard and suspected was a sheer marketing decision) and in the transition to W10M, continuing to sell devices as W10M-upgradeable even as they announced that they would be left behind.

wp8 was actually the first time I even heard of windows phone. I think that was almost a glory days of when it almost seemed glamourous, there were apps being written, and phones being sold.

They definitely overpromised with win10m. They never should have promised that much. I know they wanted to capture customer loyalty from win10m fans, and a lot of their efforts, such as even the release of the 950 is directed at such, but number one rule of sales is manage expectations. They really fumbled that. The device list should have be released when they knew what was doable.

There is a solid number of capable devices left on the Anniversary Update because of their age, not because they don't have the hardware to read eBooks or display a new share icon. Which shows that the name of the mobile game right now is "fulfill obligations, but put in minimal effort."

I've seen that those devices, through members here, when upgraded via the insiders preview loophole MSFT deliberately left, are extremely buggy under CU. Just nowhere near saleable products. I think what this shows is that MSFT just has a small budget for the current mobile team, and focused on what was achievable within these limits.

The fact that I forgot to mention earlier is that Windows 10 Mobile doesn't even support current Qualcomm chipsets so I realize that hoping for an updated Elite X3 is pointless as it's already as powerful as MS will allow. Maybe if Windows on ARM becomes more phone-friendly in a couple years. (keyword: "if" )

That's not exactly true. MSFT developed a 64 bit version of the OS some time ago, and we have no idea what it supports, or other internal builds may support. The publically released build doesn't support current qualcomms.

As far as that goes, Wharton brooks was told to hold up on their new phone, that they wouldn't support it in rs3, because they had some standard changes planned. Or something roughly to that effect. win10m has some kind of new revision, although, I don't think it's the much touted "reboot". More like a tweak IMO, with another branch for dual screens (Andromeda, you can see evidence of this new SKU in the windows code)

CShell is likely going to better position Windows in the future, especially on small tablets and is a logical progression of the already adaptable UWP framework.

Agree with both those statements. I think cshell is probably more powerful on smaller tablets, and for creating entertainment machines, than on a phone, personally. A small tablet, running intel, thunderbolt 3, and an egpu, could be a quite competent PC too, even now.

But yes, I believe Microsoft is without drive and without direction in mobile. Throwing things at the wall internally but as far as us consumers can see, still in "fulfill obligations and wash hands" mode.

That's a full spelling out of your perspective. It's a fair distance from mine, but it's good to see what you are really saying. You feel, MSFT doesn't have a plan.

Which I guess could be in a way true, or maybe at one point was true. Steve jobs had no idea what he was going to do when he took the company back to try and save it. He admitted later, he just cut costs, developed ideas and "waited for the next big thing". Then they released the ipod. The rest is more or less history.

However, if they didn't have a plan, you don't really know what they might end up doing. They could end up releasing cshell to current builds, releasing new phones, or doing neither.

 

[skydiverian]

2) The actual code itself. Cshell was clearly _written_ for a 32 bit phone. It RUNS on a 32 bit phone. No new snapdragon cpus are 32 bit. Any new phone would be 64 bit, because all snapdragon processors out recently are 64 bit. It would run a different codebase for the OS itself. If msft planned on dumping all current 32 bit phones, there would be no sense at all in coding such features for the 32 bit version of the operation system at all, and it would not run on such phones. Why would MSFT write 32 bit code if it wasn't going to any devices? Surely they would write it in 64 bit code and it would fail to run on any 32 but device if what you claimed was true. There's just no way that makes sense. It must by sheer logic, come to at least one 32 bit handset and by virtue of that logic, most likely extend to the popular, still high performing models in that archecture (baring performance requirements if those end up being a limitation for some models).

No guarantee that 32bit support will mean cshell is backported to existing phones - might be simply to allow 32bit UWP apps to remain supported.

However...

Apple have only a few phones to support each gen, and they still drop support regularly, like anyone else does. You can't get ios 11 on an iPhone 5, which is expected and reasonable but they also included no backwards compatibility for 32 bit apps, something Microsoft would not do on mobile or on PC (Actually not even sure there is such a thing as a 32 bit or 64 bit uwp, don't think it works that way, but all the same, that's a very apple move, and not consumer or developer centric but rather "apple-centric"). I see apples support as better in a way, and worse in others, and yet also entirely a great deal easier, especially for a company making more money in tech than anyone else almost entirely from phones. if apple were in msft's shoes having to potentially support more than a dozen phone models across a whole new OS core with a low userbase, I doubt very much they'd do what msft did.

With the usual cycle leading to the iPhone 5 not getting ios 11 and being the last iPhone with a 32bit cpu, Apple can shift everything to 64bit. I'm surprised, as "upgrading" any version of Windows from 32bit to 64bit is a clean install - in-place is simply not possible. I'm intrigued that Apple can and have decided to do that and more so to kill 32bit app support - pretty user unfriendly.

However, with the rumours suggesting that cshell will kill support for Silverlight apps, Micosoft are planning a similar move - I've got games that were built for WP7 that install and run perfectly well on W10M but allegedly won't run at all on cshell.

it doesn't look like it would be possible to upgrade the OS to support chsell without installed Silverlight apps being able to work - pretty much like Apple are planning with ios 11 and killing support for all apps that haven't been updated with 64bit support. Therefore it could be the case that Microsoft may bring cshell to existing devices - it will just have to add a warning message like Apple have to warn users that older apps that have not been updated will not work if the OS is updated.

 

[Drael646464]

No guarantee that 32bit support will mean cshell is backported to existing phones - might be simply to allow 32bit UWP apps to remain supported.

However...



With the usual cycle leading to the iPhone 5 not getting ios 11 and being the last iPhone with a 32bit cpu, Apple can shift everything to 64bit. I'm surprised, as "upgrading" any version of Windows from 32bit to 64bit is a clean install - in-place is simply not possible. I'm intrigued that Apple can and have decided to do that and more so to kill 32bit app support - pretty user unfriendly.

However, with the rumours suggesting that cshell will kill support for Silverlight apps, Micosoft are planning a similar move - I've got games that were built for WP7 that install and run perfectly well on W10M but allegedly won't run at all on cshell.

it doesn't look like it would be possible to upgrade the OS to support chsell without installed Silverlight apps being able to work - pretty much like Apple are planning with ios 11 and killing support for all apps that haven't been updated with 64bit support. Therefore it could be the case that Microsoft may bring cshell to existing devices - it will just have to add a warning message like Apple have to warn users that older apps that have not been updated will not work if the OS is updated.

Seems like a real possibility. MSFT wants to boost UWP, and Silverlight is in a way holding that back. It would be consumer unfriendly in the short term, but there are long term benefits probable from that, unlike the 32 bit app thing, which is really completely unnessasary, except as a forced upgrade for apple users.

 

[Cosmin Petrenciuc]

I don't think CShell will be available for all W10 mobile devices. I don't expect that my Lumia 950 XL will receive CShell. I will be surprised if my Lumia will receive the Fall Update.

I think CShell will come first to some tablets that will sport Snapdragon 835, probably developed by Microsoft's OEM partners.

And maybe, they will make some form of CShell available for HP Elite x3. I read somewhere that HP might have in the works a new version of this device.

 

[Mihai N]

Good points Drael, but in some ways you did not get what I was saying. I didn't say "phones" but "mobile devices" (only the one from HP is clearly a phone). And I did not say that these new mobile devices will come out this year.

I think the new mobile devices AND the new W10M will come out sometime 2018 or maybe even 2019.
You are a little bit optimistic about MSFT and caring about existing phone/W10M users. With every W10M update they lost around 50% of their user base. That was pure intention, because they did not have to cut the support (e.g. the most recent feature2 build runs great on the Lumia 1020).
I think MSFT wants to completely wipe their user base before they launch their next attempt at W10M

I wonder if there will a mobile device from Microsoft. Every time we expect the mobile new device next year or the year after that. But no matter how much they want to avoid the smartphone form factor device, it will be here for many years. If MS really gets something good out in the future, we will think again how they wasted time thinking how to reinvent the smartphone. Damn it, MS, is support for Android(damn Outlook contacts are not loading anymore on Android 7) and iOS all you can do in mobile?

 

[Drael646464]

I think MSFT wants to completely wipe their user base before they launch their next attempt at W10M

Why would anyone do that, commercially speaking?

I mean assuming there is this widely speculated "reboot"* what would be the practical or logical. function of this?

*(which I personally don't think there is, but that's another issue, I think it will be, as insiders have specifically termed it, when referring to the new mobile SKU "a branch", an offshoot, like surface is to tablets/laptops, a sibling, a new catergory, not a replacement or reboot).

 

[Drael646464]

I wonder if there will a mobile device from Microsoft. Every time we expect the mobile new device next year or the year after that. But no matter how much they want to avoid the smartphone form factor device, it will be here for many years. If MS really gets something good out in the future, we will think again how they wasted time thinking how to reinvent the smartphone. Damn it, MS, is support for Android(damn Outlook contacts are not loading anymore on Android 7) and iOS all you can do in mobile?

The don't really need to "beat" the smartphone form factor. They just need something more than 1 percent of the market uses. Which could be a pretty niche device. If they can create a form factor, that's really useful to a small percentage of people, that's enough to get a foothold in the market again.

 

[milkyway]

Why would anyone do that, commercially speaking?

I mean assuming there is this widely speculated "reboot"* what would be the practical or logical. function of this?

*(which I personally don't think there is, but that's another issue, I think it will be, as insiders have specifically termed it, when referring to the new mobile SKU "a branch", an offshoot, like surface is to tablets/laptops, a sibling, a new catergory, not a replacement or reboot).

I think they want to get rid of their user base because the user base can be loud if it wants to be. If MS wants to get rid of it's bad (mobile) rep they talk about their mobile efforts have to become as quiet as possible.

Their next attempt on mobile devices won't be: "hey, we got new phones with Windows 10 Mobile". It will be "hey, look at our new mini mobile PCs". Maybe they will even avoid the word "mobile" and call it "portable" or "pocket" or something.

 

[Drael646464]

I think they want to get rid of their user base because the user base can be loud if it wants to be. If MS wants to get rid of it's bad (mobile) rep they talk about their mobile efforts have to become as quiet as possible.

Their next attempt on mobile devices won't be: "hey, we got new phones with Windows 10 Mobile". It will be "hey, look at our new mini mobile PCs". Maybe they will even avoid the word "mobile" and call it "portable" or "pocket" or something.

So you think by burning hard, the vocal but tiny userbase of mobile users, they'll be less inclined to complain? That this will be somehow helpful for PR?

I don't think anyone in the mainstream even knows about windows phone, nor will any amount of tech press really matter to them. And anybody it tech news will mention it anyway, just like they would things going as far back as beta max.

Unless MSFT has some kind of MIB forgetmeray, I don't see how that would work. Besides anyone that I show, or see's my 950, acts like they did when e-cigs first came about - a curious and puzzled look - what is that thing?

Nobody knows windows phone. What little reputation it has, is amongst a tiny group of people nobody in the mainstream remotely cares about - tech enthusiasts. They hold about as much sway over the public as hi-fi audio junkies, EDM bros, bb10 fans and furries. Well maybe slightly more than that, as people might read a review that makes passing mention of their history whilst focusing primarily on actual features - but all the same, virtually no influence whatsoever.

Previous customers are your most likely future customers. Always.

They outrank the conversion percentages of first time customers by many factors. No company worth its salt would get rid of existing consumers intentionally.

Which is why MSFT overpromised 8.1 phone users on upgrade, and supported those phones way longer than any android OEM would. The only phone company that has offered more upgrade support is apple - and they almost entirely make money off phones and have like a dozen models to support with pretty similar hardware.

In the end, it wasn't remotely economic for MSFT to support that many phones. The ones that were older, or had too many bugs to fix, were dropped.

Actual marketshare and userbase only really dropped off after the sale of nokia anyway. People are only really leaving because there's no new phones (and that's perhaps the area where MSFT actions are curious - current 1.5 percent installed userbase in the US, and that more than double that amount that have already left - that should be captured, really some time in the next year or year and a half, MSFT should release _something_)

The lack of upgrades never bothered anyone in the mainstream public anyway-I just read yesterday; nearly eighty percent of windows phone users are still on 8.1 when the majority if those could have upgraded if they wanted to.

Your overthinking all of this. Everyday people don't care about software upgrades. Phone enthusiasts do.

Rarely, someone may ask when they buy a phone "is this running the latest android". Rarely, but it happens. Maybe 1 in 20. Maybe 1 in 40 or 50 might be interested in an upgrade. Ask most people what version of android they have and they'll have no idea. Is the average person worried about android version upgrades? Absolutely not. Nor is the average windows phone user.

WE care. They don't.