Will there be proper apps for Google applications in Windows 10 for phones?

[N_LaRUE]

So there's no point in having this conversation at all then, right? Come back in a year's time to have this chat if you want proof that anything's changed. Then one side can win and one can lose. If you won't accept any speculation or abstract thought, the topic is academic.

I think you've got some good points, but I suspect you're very unusual in only using one app. I don't think of myself as a person who uses a lot of apps and I try to keep my number down to preserve as much space as possible for 320kb/s music files, but my Store history says I've installed 212 apps from the store, and including the system apps I seem to have about 130 installed at the moment (gave up counting when I hit 100 somewhere in the Ns of my A-Z).

Just so I'm clear here. Are you referring to Windows 8.1 (not phone) apps? Because that's what I was talking about.

 

[Tsang Fai]

I know what you mean and I understand. If you was a developer that develop apps for Windows desktop or mobile... The most important thing is obviously that one app will work for all devices. So less effort from you and more benefits in the long way. It is worth it because the market share will increase, not immediately but in the next year.

Me too. I tend to be optimistic on the future Windows Phone/Windows Store.

Whether Win10 will be successful is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how likely Win10 would be successful.

Whether developers will port their apps to W10 is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how many developers will consider porting apps. We should ask what apps are most likely to be ported. (No one would care those rubbish apps being ported to WP. No thanks. Only a small % of apps are really cool & useful)

And it is simple-minded to ask people to give "proof" of the success of Win10. At least what Msft will do for Win10 makes much sense.

We should not just look at WP. Consider the growing usage of Windows tablets, the shift from desktop programs to universal apps, we can forsee that the Windows Store will play a more important role for Windows users. Even for non-WP Windows users, they will have more exposure to Windows Store. It is evident that Msft is trying to shift the traditional desktop programs ecosystem to the universal desktop applications ecosystem.

Win10 is a bunch of new concepts/frameworks/features which together will have a positive impact on the growth of Windows Store. And I believe Msft is not taking a passive role to "wait" for developers to make apps for Win10 - as what we see from the Build, Msft is working closely with many major app developers. I am optimistic to see that the launch of Win10 will start with a pretty nice collection of cool apps - let's wait and see

It is na?ve to say 3% is a small market. We are talking about mobile market. 3% of a super huge market is still a very big market.

 

[Raj Poladia]

I think you misunderstand net neutrality. It's about IPS controlling content.

Also Google isn't an advocate of net neutrality. Neither is Nokia.

You can still use some of Google services on WP and you can use them on your desktop PC if you have one.

It would be an issue if your ISP/carrier blocked you from MS and only allowed Google forcing you to get an Android phone. That's where net neutrality comes in.

I didn't mean that, I just meant Google is internet company, they are providing their services on all platforms but not for windows then this is indirectly against freedom of people to select what ever platform they want to enjoy specific services. Now if I want to enjoy all the services from google then I must have android, but if you want all services of Microsoft eg office Skype office 365,etc all are available on android iOS and Android and are being updated with the latest features that are on the windows and windows phone, so this should be companies policies that their users should have freedom to use their services from whatever devices they want and not only through what the company supports talking about major services (YouTube gmail google maps)

 

[hotphil]

I didn't mean that, I just meant Google is internet company, they are providing their services on all platforms but not for windows then this is indirectly against freedom of people to select what ever platform they want to enjoy specific services. Now if I want to enjoy all the services from google then I must have android, but if you want all services of Microsoft eg office Skype office 365,etc all are available on android iOS and Android and are being updated with the latest features that are on the windows and windows phone, so this should be companies policies that their users should have freedom to use their services from whatever devices they want and not only through what the company supports talking about major services (YouTube gmail google maps)

Google aren't an internet company. They're an advertising company. And in order to advertise to you, they want all your data. All of it. Not just the lesser amount they can get from you using their services on other platforms. Thus, to ensure they get quality data on you and your habits, they're only interested in offering services on platforms where they can get everything they want, when they want it.
Companies are businesses, not charities. Giving people "freedom" to use their services on other platforms suits Microsoft's business model (as they're a technology company) but not Google's.​

 

[DCTF]

Just so I'm clear here. Are you referring to Windows 8.1 (not phone) apps? Because that's what I was talking about.

They're both. I mean, there's not really any such thing as "a Windows 10 app" right now, given that W10 isn't released. I installed the WP test build when it became available for my phone, went back to 8.1, and just this morning put WP10 back in the hope that we're getting a significant update this week.

In that sense, you'd say all my apps are 8.1, I guess. Been on the WP OS for about two years now.

 

[N_LaRUE]

I didn't mean that, I just meant Google is internet company, they are providing their services on all platforms but not for windows then this is indirectly against freedom of people to select what ever platform they want to enjoy specific services. Now if I want to enjoy all the services from google then I must have android, but if you want all services of Microsoft eg office Skype office 365,etc all are available on android iOS and Android and are being updated with the latest features that are on the windows and windows phone, so this should be companies policies that their users should have freedom to use their services from whatever devices they want and not only through what the company supports talking about major services (YouTube gmail google maps)

Go read about it will you? You obviously have no idea what net neutrality is. I have a feeling a lot of people don't and wouldn't be surprised if it's been misrepresented in articles as well.

 

[N_LaRUE]

They're both. I mean, there's not really any such thing as "a Windows 10 app" right now, given that W10 isn't released. I installed the WP test build when it became available for my phone, went back to 8.1, and just this morning put WP10 back in the hope that we're getting a significant update this week.

In that sense, you'd say all my apps are 8.1, I guess. Been on the WP OS for about two years now.

I think you may be confused still. Allow me to clarify further. I am not talking about the mobile OS when I made that statement. I was referring to the desktop OS. On mobile I use many apps as well, you'd be crazy not to. On desktop I've only used one Store app for any length of time. I use many desktop programs. Depends on your general idea of what an app is.

When I say W8.1 or Windows 8.1 I refer to the desktop OS. When I say WP or Windows Phone 8.1 I refer to the mobile platform. Until W10 comes out they are essentially different OSs.

I hope that is more clear?

I think I understand better the confusion people get now with all the similar names....

 

[DCTF]

..

Ahhh, okay. Sorry for getting mixed up.

 

[N_LaRUE]

Ahhh, okay. Sorry for getting mixed up.

Hopefully my other points in the rest of my posts make more sense now?

No worries. I was starting to wonder if I was losing my ability to communicate.

 

[N_LaRUE]

Me too. I tend to be optimistic on the future Windows Phone/Windows Store.

Whether Win10 will be successful is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how likely Win10 would be successful.

Whether developers will port their apps to W10 is not a "yes" or "no" question. We should ask how many developers will consider porting apps. We should ask what apps are most likely to be ported. (No one would care those rubbish apps being ported to WP. No thanks. Only a small % of apps are really cool & useful)

And it is simple-minded to ask people to give "proof" of the success of Win10. At least what Msft will do for Win10 makes much sense.

We should not just look at WP. Consider the growing usage of Windows tablets, the shift from desktop programs to universal apps, we can forsee that the Windows Store will play a more important role for Windows users. Even for non-WP Windows users, they will have more exposure to Windows Store. It is evident that Msft is trying to shift the traditional desktop programs ecosystem to the universal desktop applications ecosystem.

Win10 is a bunch of new concepts/frameworks/features which together will have a positive impact on the growth of Windows Store. And I believe Msft is not taking a passive role to "wait" for developers to make apps for Win10 - as what we see from the Build, Msft is working closely with many major app developers. I am optimistic to see that the launch of Win10 will start with a pretty nice collection of cool apps - let's wait and see

It is na?ve to say 3% is a small market. We are talking about mobile market. 3% of a super huge market is still a very big market.

3% is tiny. If it was worth anything WP would not be losing apps or not having developers not update their apps. Would you like to try that again?

I'm not bagging W10 in anyway. Let's be clear. Nor am I saying that W10 isn't good or won't get new users. I was only coming from the point of developers and what advantage there is for them. I only have the stats for WP of 3% I don't know what the usage of Windows 8.1 Store is. I don't think it's very large but I could be wrong. Not even sure where to get it.

What my point has been is this. It's very easy to talk big numbers when you throw Windows Desktop OS into the picture but the question remains. How many use the app Store? Is it worth for a developer to make an app if the numbers are low? Will desktop users change the way they use Windows? Is there and advantage for app developers here or are we just hoping?

Anyway, this is far off the OP now. Didn't mean for it to go there.

 

[Raj Poladia]

Hopefully my other points in the rest of my posts make more sense now?

No worries. I was starting to wonder if I was losing my ability to communicate.

I know what net neutrality is, and don't act like you know every thing.

 

[Pete]

Actually that's the true issue, don't you guys feel by ignoring windows phone platform google is against net neutrality by forcing people not to choose windows platform if they want to enjoy their own services?

I know what net neutrality is, and don't act like you know every thing.

Net Neutrality as we know it only applies to governments and internet service providers. Google is neither of these entities, so isn't govern by Net Neutrality (although can affected by Net Neutrality in the same was as any other SaaS corporation).

I think you're confusing Net Neutrality with Platform Agnostics.

 

[DCTF]

Hopefully my other points in the rest of my posts make more sense now?

No worries. I was starting to wonder if I was losing my ability to communicate.

Ha ha! No, I was just diving between my work and reading forums, and lost the ability to read

I think the desktop store has the potential to become bigger, but it comes with so much mistrust. People are extremely edgy about the future of Windows as a subscription service. They panicked (understandably) when Windows 8 first appeared, looking like it was making a console of their PC.

But in order for Windows desktop apps to break out of their prison, MS needs all of us to regain the original meaning of "app" as any program on the computer, a meaning that's been in decline since the iPhone redefined the primary understanding of the term. To do that, the app store needs to be "bigger" in Windows. We need to be encouraged to visit and use it, but if they push us there, a lot of us are going to react badly because our "closed system" alarm bells will start ringing. The moment we start seeing "Windows Store exclusives" for things like the PC version of Photoshop, MS will have stepped into a dangerous area. They'll need to prove, like Steam did, that the pricing and convenience of their store represents something better than the old way.

I think the Universal App idea is something of a masterstroke for that reason, even if it is something of a gamble. If MS can show that its x% share of Windows Phone users are having an especially good time with their combined mobile/desktop apps, and if the uptake for Windows 10 is as fast and significant as MS expects it to be, then there could be a nice circular trade-off where the phones and the desktop app store help to sell each other. I'm not expecting crazy gains, but I do think it could provide a slow and steady lift in fortunes for both sides of the company.

 

[tgp]

then there could be a nice circular trade-off where the phones and the desktop app store help to sell each other.

There's still a caveat here though; counting all devices, Windows accounts for 14% of total market share, according to Satya Nadella in July 2014.

Nadella acknowledged the disparity between Microsoft?s market share in the declining PC business?90%?and its market share in a computing business that has quickly been dominated by mobile devices. (Microsoft enjoys just 14% share across all devices, he conceded.)

Even throwing in PCs doesn't make it overwhelming.

 

[N_LaRUE]

I know what net neutrality is, and don't act like you know every thing.

You're right, I don't know everything but I took the time to learn what it is before I made dumb *** statements.

 

[N_LaRUE]

Ha ha! No, I was just diving between my work and reading forums, and lost the ability to read

I think the desktop store has the potential to become bigger, but it comes with so much mistrust. People are extremely edgy about the future of Windows as a subscription service. They panicked (understandably) when Windows 8 first appeared, looking like it was making a console of their PC.

But in order for Windows desktop apps to break out of their prison, MS needs all of us to regain the original meaning of "app" as any program on the computer, a meaning that's been in decline since the iPhone redefined the primary understanding of the term. To do that, the app store needs to be "bigger" in Windows. We need to be encouraged to visit and use it, but if they push us there, a lot of us are going to react badly because our "closed system" alarm bells will start ringing. The moment we start seeing "Windows Store exclusives" for things like the PC version of Photoshop, MS will have stepped into a dangerous area. They'll need to prove, like Steam did, that the pricing and convenience of their store represents something better than the old way.

I think the Universal App idea is something of a masterstroke for that reason, even if it is something of a gamble. If MS can show that its x% share of Windows Phone users are having an especially good time with their combined mobile/desktop apps, and if the uptake for Windows 10 is as fast and significant as MS expects it to be, then there could be a nice circular trade-off where the phones and the desktop app store help to sell each other. I'm not expecting crazy gains, but I do think it could provide a slow and steady lift in fortunes for both sides of the company.

I think if Store apps develop a 'Windows' integrated app feel and acts 'normal' than I think there's a higher chance of success but since I planned to wait for W10 RTM because I only have one laptop to determine how things are, I can't say one way or the other if they've managed to do that. The Store apps as they are in W8.1 is not what I want in W10 and I think many people would agree with me on that.

It all needs to feel the same and feel like you're always using one system. If W10 doesn't succeed with that feel then I doubt many users will take up Store apps and I doubt the developers will come. That's the situation as it stands for me.

 

[DCTF]

There's still a caveat here though; counting all devices, Windows accounts for 14% of total market share, according to Satya Nadella in July 2014.



Even throwing in PCs doesn't make it overwhelming.

Yeah. For once in the life of Windows, I think it all hangs on the aesthetics of Windows 10. If people like the look of it enough - if they've succeeded in making the most modern-looking, classy OS out there, which is a matter only the users can decide - then I think it's got a big future. Apple isn't winning, but it is as successful as it needs to be, and that power came through offering a certain atmosphere. That's what Windows has to hope for: that users will want to use Edge because it preserves the W10 look across their system; that they will see WP as more of an attraction in terms of a computing "set"; that they will see Windows as a design language and as an environment.

I worry a bit about the technical preview for this reason. I think it looks good on desktops, but it feels like it's a punch away from being a truly knockout design. It's making too many concessions to the past, even flirting with Aero (which I think ruins the smart, Swiss-inspired design they were leaning towards). Nonetheless, I do think it looks considerably better than OSX, which is looking very old-fashioned and even a bit tacky to me, so it's got the potential to take that spot.

 

[DCTF]

I think if Store apps develop a 'Windows' integrated app feel and acts 'normal' than I think there's a higher chance of success but since I planned to wait for W10 RTM because I only have one laptop to determine how things are, I can't say one way or the other if they've managed to do that. The Store apps as they are in W8.1 is not what I want in W10 and I think many people would agree with me on that.

It all needs to feel the same and feel like you're always using one system. If W10 doesn't succeed with that feel then I doubt many users will take up Store apps and I doubt the developers will come. That's the situation as it stands for me.

That does appear to be the intention. Win8.1 apps looked terrible on desktop PCs: text too large, enforced fullscreen, and generally poorly designed. The promotion for Win10 shows the apps working windowed as part of the desktop environment, just like a normal program. To make them work on mobile and desktop, the apps appear to be using a modular construction, a bit like the way responsive web design allows elements to reform and rearrange to fit different dimensions. I don't think we'll see any of that tablet feel in W10's apps.

 

[Tsang Fai]

3% is tiny. If it was worth anything WP would not be losing apps or not having developers not update their apps. Would you like to try that again?

I'm not bagging W10 in anyway. Let's be clear. Nor am I saying that W10 isn't good or won't get new users. I was only coming from the point of developers and what advantage there is for them. I only have the stats for WP of 3% I don't know what the usage of Windows 8.1 Store is. I don't think it's very large but I could be wrong. Not even sure where to get it.

What my point has been is this. It's very easy to talk big numbers when you throw Windows Desktop OS into the picture but the question remains. How many use the app Store? Is it worth for a developer to make an app if the numbers are low? Will desktop users change the way they use Windows? Is there and advantage for app developers here or are we just hoping?

Anyway, this is far off the OP now. Didn't mean for it to go there.

You are trying to exaggerate the negative side of Windows Phone.

And you are trying to exaggerate the low percentage of WP share. So according to your logic, no company would ever succeed because every company has to start with zero market share. According to your logic, WP will stay below 3% for ever and ever regardless of the improvements made in W10.

You are looking at Windows Store like a "chicken and egg" problem. (3% ==> no one cares ==> no one makes apps / no one buys WP ==> cannot go beyond 3% ==> no one cares ....)

And you are viewing Windows 10 as either "success" or "failure".
(no "proof" for success = "failure"???)

I think many people here have already posted some relevant points supporting possible benefits Win10 will bring to the Windows ecosystem. But you keep on repeatedly questioning "Is it worth...", "Will desktop users change the way...", "Is there any advantage for app developers...."

While some people may be too optimistic, you seem to be over-pessimistic on Windows Store.

 

[N_LaRUE]

You are trying to exaggerate the negative side of Windows Phone.

And you are trying to exaggerate the low percentage of WP share. So according to your logic, no company would ever succeed because every company has to start with zero market share. According to your logic, WP will stay below 3% for ever and ever regardless of the improvements made in W10.

You are looking at Windows Store like a "chicken and egg" problem. And you are viewing Windows 10 as either "success" or "failure".


I think many people here have already posted some relevant points supporting possible benefits Win10 will bring to the Windows ecosystem. But you keep on repeatedly questioning "Is it worth...", "Will desktop users change the way...", "Is there any advantage for app developers...."

While some people may be too optimistic, you seem to be over-pessimistic on Windows Store.

Just playing devils advocate and taking an ROI stance.

The only way for W10 to succeed is for the desktop app situation to work smoothly. I'm not saying it is or isn't at this stage. I'll wait for RTM.

I hope probably more than most here that this is the solution and good things come to Windows in general. It is a risk and no developer is going to jump on board immediately. I know it might not seem like I want good things but I want people to stop thinking it's all sunshine when it isn't.

I am not over emphasising anything with regards to WP. Apps have been pulled. Development has stopped with some apps and some apps have never come at all. This is the reality of WP the whole time I've been on it and watching it. Yes, 3% is tiny in this market. Sorry if that offends but it's reality. If it meant something WP would be in a better position.

W10 is the make or break point for WP as far as I'm concerned. If they can't attract developers with this then what's left really? That's been my point.