WPCentral and Snapdragon 400.. A Long and Incoherent Ramble.

[colinkiama]

so u say, a dual-core like 1320 will be better than 730-830??

Yes but the apps would load slower on the 920 than on the 730/830

 

[Tellus82]

Well, I don't care for any new features and I don't care for if 830 is better than 920 or not. All I care about and want is,

1. Fix the soft and yellow photos. Feels like I have 3.2 MP camera. No details at all.
2. Fix the overheating issue and battery drain. I can't really play games when away from the charger because of this.

I don't have any performance issue with 920. I love it's red color more than orange and green of 830 or any newer Lumia. The weight and thickness is not at all a problem for me. And there's no any reason for me to change mg 920 except for above stated two issues, which are truly software dependant and should be fixed no matter what!
If I was getting a new phone at this time, definitely I can say 830 is better. But for replacing my perfectly functioning Lumia 920, no it's not worth the money! Especially when there are no contracts in my country and I have to buy any phone at it's full price. And what is frustrating is, the only issues I have are software related and MS doesn't care to fix them.

Sadly the battery drain is kind of down to hardware aswell, playing games will load the chipset fully and the S4 is not an energy efficient chip, mainly due to the GPU being on 45nm (keep in mind this is compared to modern chips on lower fabprocess). As far as i am aware MS are working on the Lumia camera and also updates in firmware for camera on alot of devices so if you do like the 920 then keep it and wait for MS to sort out the firmware/software. But i don't see the battery life on the 920 improing a whole lot while gaming, unless MS introduces FPS caps.

 

[Karthik Naik]

the "inferior" hardware arguement is invalid for every phone OS except android and BB10
apple and MS should understand that people who own a gen or 2 older devices arent fools
my ipad 2 performance is excellent on ios 6.1.3 whereas my friends device is worse on ios 7 and even worse on ios 8,despite it just being a theme change for older devices
my 720 camera was much superior with the Portico Update,i dont understand why they cannot bring back the same level of quality though its better on cyan than amber and black update
its purely optimisation which needs to be stepped up,i know people will say buy a new device etc,i dont agree because when i spend a large amount of money on an excellent product,i want its quality to be maintained atleast software wise

 

[colinkiama]

Really annoys me to see the 'slight performance improvements' being hatted to the CPU on the Snapdragon 400.
It is obvious Microsoft is not making optimizations for the S4 SoC like they are for the 400.

Microsoft is not committed to providing the same level of support across all of their devices. T-Mobile and Verizon not releasing the updates is Microsoft's fault. Does not make sense that the 920, 925, 1020, etc are being made obsolete by inferior and midrange hardware.

Reality: The Snapdragon 400 SoC is going to run marginally cooler and efficient, however, it is mostly a downgrade otherwise.
I have to disagree with the Conclusions made on the 830 vs 920 article.

The only real edge that cannot be implemented on the 920 realistically is the support for SensorCore.
Miracast and other optimizations are very well doable on our 92X devices.

My question for this community is: Should I expect a phone I purchased full retail several months ago to receive 'under the hood' updates similar to their current lineup?

I have been a big fan of Metro UI since the Zune HD, and I have always appreciated Nokia's design. While there are a lot of missing features that should have been implemented, I still have plenty of praise for Microsoft. However, while Microsoft is developing their own devices, they do not provide the proper level of support. Apple's iPhone 4s (2011) receives extensive support that is far superior to the Lumia 925 (2013).

I wish T-Mobile had the 1520 back when I 'sidegraded' from the 920 (more of a downgrade in some ways). I think I am going to wait and see out this generation of Windows Phones (830, etc). I hope Microsoft is more serious about their own products than they are of their acquired ones. (See what I did there :smile

I apologize for the ramble.

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, people are happy with their updates. Microsoft can't do anything to speed up the updates in the US. Carriers have all the control there. Also you said that apple support their iPhones better than lumias but you have to remember that apple used to make one phone every year, now it's two(the chipset is the same on them though). You have to understand that apple make the SoC.and the software of their own phones. They can optimise their phones to squeeze every last ounce of power from them. Unlike Microsoft who get Snapdragon's of the shelf. They are working closely with Qualcomm but since they don't make the chipsets, they are still limited to what they can do with them. So I'm afraid the 820, 920, 925 and 1020 have reached limits. It happens to all phones that get old however phones aren't left behind in a laggy unusable. State like the iPhone 4 was. That was just horrible. Enjoy your 830.

 

[Karthik Naik]

Sadly the battery drain is kind of down to hardware aswell, playing games will load the chipset fully and the S4 is not an energy efficient chip, mainly due to the GPU being on 45nm (keep in mind this is compared to modern chips on lower fabprocess). As far as i am aware MS are working on the Lumia camera and also updates in firmware for camera on alot of devices so if you do like the 920 then keep it and wait for MS to sort out the firmware/software. But i don't see the battery life on the 920 improing a whole lot while gaming, unless MS introduces FPS caps.

dude its again the optimisation arguement,720 and 920 from my experience have the best battery life ive ever seen,beats nearly every other phone in the market so S4 isnt inefficient etc

 

[Karthik Naik]

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, people are happy with their updates. Microsoft can't do anything to speed up the updates in the US. Carriers have all the control there. Also you said that apple support their iPhones better than lumias but you have to remember that apple used to make one phone every year, now it's two(the chipset is the same on them though). You have to understand that apple make the SoC.and the software of their own phones. They can optimise their phones to squeeze every last ounce of power from them. Unlike Microsoft who get Snapdragon's of the shelf. They are working closely with Qualcomm but since they don't make the chipsets, they are still limited to what they can do with them. So I'm afraid the 820, 920, 925 and 1020 have reached limits. It happens to all phones that get old however phones aren't left behind in a laggy unusable. State like the iPhone 4 was. That was just horrible. Enjoy your 830.

actually iphone 4 had poor hardware ,4S still has good hardware etc
its all down to optimisation
ipad 1 went unusable with ios 5, even though it was fine on ios 4
iphone 4 was fine on ios 5 and 6 ,its understandable why it went bad with ios 7 and 8 because its hardware was maxed out
the SD S4 is in no way maxed out,the SD400 is more or less equal but performs better because they dont concentrate on older devices,which they should if they plan on releasing further updates,they should atleast maintain the same level of speed etc if they dont plan on putting alot of future features on them

 

[Tellus82]

dude its again the optimisation arguement,720 and 920 from my experience have the best battery life ive ever seen,beats nearly every other phone in the market so S4 isnt inefficient etc

Ehm, you want to argue that the S4 is an energy efficient SoC in todays standards under full load conditions, really? Please show me the testing on this because this makes no sense to anyone.

In terms of the CPU the S4 aint bad, but the gpu in it can hardly be called efficient. However i do agree with you that optimisations must continue but so far that has happened for most devices, perhaps not on the US side with all carriers.

 

[colinkiama]

actually iphone 4 had poor hardware ,4S still has good hardware etc
its all down to optimisation
ipad 1 went unusable with ios 5, even though it was fine on ios 4
iphone 4 was fine on ios 5 and 6 ,its understandable why it went bad with ios 7 and 8 because its hardware was maxed out
the SD S4 is in no way maxed out,the SD400 is more or less equal but performs better because they dont concentrate on older devices,which they should if they plan on releasing further updates,they should atleast maintain the same level of speed etc if they dont plan on putting alot of future features on them

Nokia/microsoft has to update 17(not including the carrier and country exclusives)of their phones, apple have to update 6 of their phones. Yeah it must be sooo easy to maintain speed when updating their phones..the s4 is maxed out for Microsoft in terms of features however Microsoft are still optimising the phones to allow them to run 8.1 and even gdr1 smoothly. Obviously they cannot maintain the same level of speed due to the chipset. A lot of features have been added to the OS. The 920 wasn't made for 8.1. It's crazy to think that is should just magically work the same way it did when it was first released.

 

[thesachd]

I can't confidently say which processor is better and I do disagree with a bit of what Dan has said.

But nonetheless there are things that place the Snapdragon 400 chipset above the S4 Pro, primarily the GPU.

If I'm not wrong the Adreno 225 used in the 920 is built on 45 nm, versus the 28 nm used in the Adreno 305(in Snapdragon 400.)

This allows for cooler performance for longer period of times, considering that many tasks out there are GPU intensive such as gaming or even scrolling in some cases, that explains why the 830 performs better.

While CPU performance may be better on the 920, considering that not a whole lot of apps take advantage of quad cores.

 

[ShinraCorp]

Look let's all be clear, they're not technicians they're reporters. Snapdragon 400 is an power efficient and cheaper version of the S4, the CPU is the same the changes are the GPU, the micro-architecture and the rest of the system.

Qualcomm Snapdragon 400

CPU
Up to 1.7 GHz dual-core Krait 300 CPU or up to 1.6GHz quad-core ARM? Cortex? A7 CPU

GPU
Up to Qualcomm? Adreno? 306 GPU

DSP
Hexagon? V40 or V50 DSP (up to 600MHz)

Modem
Integrated 4G LTE Advanced World Mode, supporting LTE FDD, LTE TDD, WCDMA (DC-HSPA+), CDMA1x, EV-DO Rev. B, TD-SCDMA and GSM/EDGE

CAT4 speeds of up to 150 Mbps

3rd Generation integrated LTE modem, with support for LTE-Broadcast and LTE multimode dual-SIM (DSDS and DSDA)"

RF
3rd gen power efficient LTE multimode transceiver with Qualcomm RF360? Front End solution for world mode bands, lower power and PCB reduction

USB
USB 2.0

Bluetooth
BT4.0 Integrated digital core

WiFi
Qualcomm? VIVE? 802.11n/ac? Integrated digital core

GPS
Qualcomm? IZat? Gen8A

NFC
Supported1

Video/Audio
1080p HD video playback and capture with H.264 (AVC)

Up to 1080p playback with H.265 (HEVC)1

DASH is supported

Camera
Up to 13.5MP

Display
Up to 24-bit WUXGA (1920x1200) + 1080p external display1

Quick Charge
Qualcomm? Quick Charge? 2.0 technology

PM8x26

Chipset SW

Voltage In = 9V, 1.5A out

Memory/Storage
LPDDR2/3 533MHz Single-channel 32-bit (4.2GBps)/eMMC 4.51 SD 3.0 (UHS-I)

Process Technology
28nm LP

Snapdragon S4 Pro

CPU
Up to 1.7 GHz Dual Krait CPU

GPU
Up to Adreno 305 GPU

Video
Up to 1080p HD video

Modem
3G/4G World/multimode LTE on select processors

Camera
Up to 20MP, Stereoscopic 3D Kit

GPS
IZat Gen8A

USB
USB 2.0 High Speed OTG (480Mbps)

Bluetooth
Integrated digital core BT4.0

WiFi
Integrated digital core 802.11n (2.4/5GHz)

Process Technology
28nm

So yeah CPU Is the same while the GPU is different. They're many changes between the two in the other categories but the performance is the same but is it a bad thing? Not really the Lumia 920 was a 600$ phone when it came out in 2012 we get the same thing and a slight bump for 400$ with the 830 now.

Of course it's always the software the ultimate decision between a good device and a bad device. Software is the Yin of the Hardware Yang they co-exist and if one or the other isn't good then the experience isn't good either. I haven't analysed anything or read in depth about programming Windows Phone (I put my studies on hiatus for now) but I'm sure that it's possible to multi-thread your apps.

Benchmarks were always bull**** because we don't know how they tested it or if they sprinkled a little program in it. This is especially true for Samsung and NVIDIA's case.

 

[realwarder]

I have to say that I have a 920 and feel fortunate that I still get the latest OS updates. Other than the iPhone, not many other brands bring the latest features to older phones. Thanks to Microsoft my 2 year old phone still feels pretty new and feature packed.

Whatever benchmarks say, the side by side reviews all show the SD400 slightly edging the 920, likely because of faster flash or other architectural changes. Perhaps it is the quad cores being used during some processes/apps. Some people appear to make blanket statement of "Windows Phone is not optimized for multiple processors", but that is BS. The phones have had dual cores for a while, the NT scheduler is completely capable of managing threads across all available cores and so if an app/OS features uses several threads then an 830 SD400 will be faster. When a single thread runs the 920 S4 will of course be faster due to pure clock speed. GPU wise, the S4 does appear to have the edge on paper, but I bet the SD400 will run cooler and longer

Until Denim rolls out across all phones we have no real idea which of the newer features Microsoft has decided to retro fit to older phones so anyone complaining here has no basis for complaint. That's like complaining your 920 won't get WP10. We just don't know...

There are so many unknowns about the low level hardware that you just can't guess what is and isn't possible to bring forward. E.g. an older phone might have a camera sensor on an SPI bus but a newer may be memory mapped with DMA and DSP offloading the whole camera overhead. All I'm saying is the processor is a small part of a much larger picture of why things can and cannot be done. Just be thankful for any new features that enhance your original purchase...

 

[RexdaleNap]

S400 is outdated anyway.

 

[ShinraCorp]

S400 is outdated anyway.

Well it's not like we'll be seeing a WP with a Snapdragon 810 anytime soon unless.... Windows 10 64 bit works in phone format....

 

[hEt lEyd1]

Yes but the apps would load slower on the 920 than on the 730/830

if s4 is slower in loading apps, then what's the benefit of that??

 

[anon5997296]

Sadly the battery drain is kind of down to hardware aswell, playing games will load the chipset fully and the S4 is not an energy efficient chip, mainly due to the GPU being on 45nm (keep in mind this is compared to modern chips on lower fabprocess). As far as i am aware MS are working on the Lumia camera and also updates in firmware for camera on alot of devices so if you do like the 920 then keep it and wait for MS to sort out the firmware/software. But i don't see the battery life on the 920 improing a whole lot while gaming, unless MS introduces FPS caps.

I agree with you about the gaming part. But my phone gets hot even while browsing web through IE, or using Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp. I don't think it is about hardware. Because Android phones with the same chipset don't do this. And please don't tell me about camera improvements in Denim. They said the same at the time of Black and even now, at the time of Cyan. Just fix these two issues and I'll want no any new feature like 'Hey, Cortana' or brightness profile.

 

[Karthik Naik]

Ehm, you want to argue that the S4 is an energy efficient SoC in todays standards under full load conditions, really? Please show me the testing on this because this makes no sense to anyone.

In terms of the CPU the S4 aint bad, but the gpu in it can hardly be called efficient. However i do agree with you that optimisations must continue but so far that has happened for most devices, perhaps not on the US side with all carriers.

i get 1.5-2 days of heavy usage on my 720

 

[Karthik Naik]

Nokia/microsoft has to update 17(not including the carrier and country exclusives)of their phones, apple have to update 6 of their phones. Yeah it must be sooo easy to maintain speed when updating their phones..the s4 is maxed out for Microsoft in terms of features however Microsoft are still optimising the phones to allow them to run 8.1 and even gdr1 smoothly. Obviously they cannot maintain the same level of speed due to the chipset. A lot of features have been added to the OS. The 920 wasn't made for 8.1. It's crazy to think that is should just magically work the same way it did when it was first released.

umm no
not true at all

 

[Yazen]

I have to say that I have a 920 and feel fortunate that I still get the latest OS updates. Other than the iPhone, not many other brands bring the latest features to older phones. Thanks to Microsoft my 2 year old phone still feels pretty new and feature packed.

Whatever benchmarks say, the side by side reviews all show the SD400 slightly edging the 920, likely because of faster flash or other architectural changes. Perhaps it is the quad cores being used during some processes/apps. Some people appear to make blanket statement of "Windows Phone is not optimized for multiple processors", but that is BS. The phones have had dual cores for a while, the NT scheduler is completely capable of managing threads across all available cores and so if an app/OS features uses several threads then an 830 SD400 will be faster. When a single thread runs the 920 S4 will of course be faster due to pure clock speed. GPU wise, the S4 does appear to have the edge on paper, but I bet the SD400 will run cooler and longer

Until Denim rolls out across all phones we have no real idea which of the newer features Microsoft has decided to retro fit to older phones so anyone complaining here has no basis for complaint. That's like complaining your 920 won't get WP10. We just don't know...

There are so many unknowns about the low level hardware that you just can't guess what is and isn't possible to bring forward. E.g. an older phone might have a camera sensor on an SPI bus but a newer may be memory mapped with DMA and DSP offloading the whole camera overhead. All I'm saying is the processor is a small part of a much larger picture of why things can and cannot be done. Just be thankful for any new features that enhance your original purchase...

I think I'll be alright once they fix the damage they made with the camera/battery life/wfc.

Even the nefarious Sony continue to provide fixes to their WMZ-Z10X0 line. Was really surprised to see Sony pushing an OTA update to improve battery life for FLAC playback.

I've read ridiculous comments saying that manual brightness is impossible. It's obviously possible, just tap the brightness action centre button.

It's small things like this that bother me. I'm perfectly happy without a brightness slider, but not including one for compatibility reasons makes me cringe.

Leaves a lot of room for speculation.

 

[a5cent]

Well if we are testing computer parts then yeah I'm all for it And I agree with what you said .
Though with phones I don't really see the need for them :/


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Why not? Wouldn't you prefer such a practical method of measurement over having to guess at how paper specs may translate into real world performance?

To me that makes sense for any computing device.

 

[Karthik Naik]

I agree with you about the gaming part. But my phone gets hot even while browsing web through IE, or using Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp. I don't think it is about hardware. Because Android phones with the same chipset don't do this. And please don't tell me about camera improvements in Denim. They said the same at the time of Black and even now, at the time of Cyan. Just fix these two issues and I'll want no any new feature like 'Hey, Cortana' or brightness profile.

portico>cyan>black>amber for photos
cyan is nearly there,denim should be even better

heating is an issue on every device even android and ios
though i see more android having battery drain ,lag and overheating than ios and wp