1. surur's Avatar


    It has the same enhancements as the GSM Touch Dual (including the cool picture viewer) and has a GPS chip (unknown if this will be made available to the user)

    Read the full manual here.

    http://www.telusmobility.com/content.../htc_p3050.pdf

    $399 on a two year contract.
    http://store.telusmobility.com/on/di...pcs/np3050.htm

    Surur
    10-12-2007 03:15 PM
  2. Deltaflyer's Avatar
    I would be interested in a Touch Dual on VZW, but that's like wishing for early retirement.
    10-12-2007 03:36 PM
  3. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    It has an aGPS chip not accessible.

    Engadget:
    ...and sadly doesn't pack WiFi or the GPS we had hoped for.
    10-12-2007 03:58 PM
  4. surur's Avatar
    It has an aGPS chip not accessible.

    Engadget:
    No, it has satellite-based GPS. Still not easily available, but its real GPS.


    The manual says it has a GPS chip and internal GPS antenna, which can be enabled for location-based services from the carrier. Maybe the hackers up north can free it for everyone else's use.
    http://www.telusmobility.com/content.../htc_p3050.pdf
    Page 12 - Amber light for GPS status
    Page 50 - location settings
    Allow the mobile phone network to detect your current location via your device’s built-in GPS chip. This is especially useful in times of emergency.
    Page 139 - Internal GPS antenna
    Surur
    10-12-2007 04:01 PM
  5. Dim-Ize's Avatar
    Surur - Did you check out Cootek's TouchPal?

    http://www.cootek.com/intro.html

    This keyboard is insane. I think it spanks the iPhone's input.

    Also, are you suggesting that the Sprint HTC Touch will also have a true Sirf III GPS receiver built into it? Possibly disabled? You are certain this is different than the aGPS that many handhelds posses?

    Can that then be used with GPS mapping software like Tom Tom? Or, is it only for use with TeleNav?

    If it is true GPS Sirf III and can be used with TomTom - and the hackers can enable it - Oh my gosh.
    10-12-2007 04:51 PM
  6. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    No, it has satellite-based GPS. Still not easily available, but its real GPS.

    Surur
    Define "real GPS"?

    It uses the msm-7500 chipset, same as the HTC 6800, which has GPSOne (aGPS ) on board. aGPS uses both satellite and cell tower relay, so technically it's better than a standalone SirfIII chip as it doesn't receive interference from buildings and valleys.

    It seems odd they'd have both aGPS on the chipset and then add another GPS chip inside and then not enable it, no?

    Having said that there are no 3rd party apps that access CDMA aGPS on WM devices. Every recent CDMA WM device (6700 +) has aGPS on them required for e911 services. From the Touch manual:

    Allow the mobile phone network to detect your current location via your device’s built-in GPS chip. This is especially useful in times of emergency.
    This is the same menu we've had on every WM CDMA device. I see no evidence that this is any different on this device and I wouldn't hold my breath on 'the hackers up north can free it for everyone else's use". Hasn't happened in 2 years.

    In other words, this isn't the Tilt--no SirfIII.

    Dim-Ize: There won't be any WM Sprint devices with standalone GPS, at least not anytime soon. Same with Verizon. Maybe you'll get TeleNav or Verizon's Nav service for a fee, but not for awhile either.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10-12-2007 at 05:14 PM.
    10-12-2007 05:03 PM
  7. surur's Avatar
    Surur - Did you check out Cootek's TouchPal?

    http://www.cootek.com/intro.html

    This keyboard is insane. I think it spanks the iPhone's input.
    Ive tried it, its very good. Not perfect yet, but seems better than even the PCM keyboard.

    Also, are you suggesting that the Sprint HTC Touch will also have a true Sirf III GPS receiver built into it? Possibly disabled? You are certain this is different than the aGPS that many handhelds posses?

    Can that then be used with GPS mapping software like Tom Tom? Or, is it only for use with TeleNav?

    If it is true GPS Sirf III and can be used with TomTom - and the hackers can enable it - Oh my gosh.
    No, it would be a GPS ability built into the processor chip. However, as long as it is satellite based I would call it real GPS. My HTC Kaiser has just such a kind of chip, and works perfectly fine.



    Define "real GPS"?
    GPS that uses those satellites up in space.

    I wouldn't hold my breath on 'the hackers up north can free it for everyone else's use". Hasn't happened in 2 years.
    Maybe they are not trying hard enough.

    Surur
    10-12-2007 05:19 PM
  8. Dim-Ize's Avatar
    Dim-Ize: There won't be any WM Sprint devices with standalone GPS, at least not anytime soon. Same with Verizon. Maybe you'll get TeleNav or Verizon's Nav service for a fee, but not for awhile either.
    Well, crud. I don't like your answer. But, I like the fact of how clear I understand what you are saying.

    That's a real shame. I wish they would give us what we really want. I guess I'll just have to use an external GPS receiver like I do today.
    10-12-2007 05:32 PM
  9. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    No, it would be a GPS ability built into the processor chip. However, as long as it is satellite based I would call it real GPS. My HTC Kaiser has just such a kind of chip, and works perfectly fine.

    GPS that uses those satellites up in space.

    Maybe they are not trying hard enough.

    Surur
    aGPS is satellite based.

    So every CDMA WM device (Moto Q, 6700, 6800, Treo 700) has "GPS".

    This begs the quesitons:

    Is it usable? No.

    Can you use 3rd party software? No.

    Are there API's written to access the data? No.

    Will any of this change in the foreseeable future? No.

    Shadowmite has written extensively on this. And considering TeleNav has not been able to access the data, I don't have hope for some 3rd rate hackers.
    10-12-2007 05:45 PM
  10. surur's Avatar
    aGPS is satellite based.

    So every CDMA WM device (Moto Q, 6700, 6800, Treo 700) has "GPS".

    This begs the quesitons:

    Is it usable? No.

    Can you use 3rd party software? No.

    Are there API's written to access the data? No.

    Will any of this change in the foreseeable future? No.

    Shadowmite has written extensively on this. And considering TeleNav has not been able to access the data, I don't have hope for some 3rd rate hackers.
    Lets see - apps on the phone, authorized by the carrier, and used in its location-based services can use the data, cant it? That means there is an API, doesn't it?

    Surur
    10-12-2007 05:50 PM
  11. bloodycape77's Avatar
    I am kind of interested in the iris that was also release on Telus the same day. Now if it was the Touch Shift(II) then that is another story, I am not fond of a device with out a keyboard or a dial pad. I also don't really like that third party software listed. It seem too much like the suretype keyboard and I am not fond of that.
    10-12-2007 05:58 PM
  12. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    Lets see - apps on the phone, authorized by the carrier, and used in its location-based services can use the data, cant it? That means there is an API, doesn't it?

    Surur
    No! That's the point! There are no LBS's for WM devices on CDMA.

    None. Zero. Nada.

    There are no APIs for aGPS on CDMA. TeleNav on WM devices require an external GPS unit, negating the aGPS on the device.
    10-12-2007 05:58 PM
  13. surur's Avatar
    No! That's the point! There are no LBS's for WM devices on CDMA.

    None. Zero. Nada.

    There are no APIs for aGPS on CDMA. TeleNav on WM devices require an external GPS unit, negating the aGPS on the device.
    Telenav works fine on the AT&T Tilt, so its not WM which is the problem.
    http://pdaphonehome.com/forums/revie...nav-5-2-a.html

    As your linked thread said, the data does become available on the phone, in the fieldtest application. It sounds as if a real hacker could decompile this app they would have a better idea whats going on.

    Surur
    10-12-2007 06:08 PM
  14. surur's Avatar
    The Vogue is supposed to have the Qualcomm MSM7500 chipset.

    http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm...t_solution.jsp

    If you look at the specs it supports standalone GPS mode.

    The HTC Kaiser has the Qualcomm MSM7200, which definitely has standalone GPS.
    http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm...t_solution.jsp

    The drivers that implement these are likely very similar, meaning it should be possible to port these to a Sprint Touch.

    Surur
    10-12-2007 06:17 PM
  15. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    The Vogue is supposed to have the Qualcomm MSM7500 chipset.

    http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm...t_solution.jsp

    If you look at the specs it supports standalone GPS mode.

    The HTC Kaiser has the Qualcomm MSM7200, which definitely has standalone GPS.
    http://www.cdmatech.com/products/msm...t_solution.jsp

    The drivers that implement these are likely very similar, meaning it should be possible to port these to a Sprint Touch.

    Surur
    Gah! Surur, no offense, but you're getting out of your league here :o

    (1) MSM-7500: yes, the same chipset found in the HTC-6800, also on Telus...does it have accessible GPS? No.

    (2) Re: stand alone --> MSM-6500 has standalone GPS too (aka HTC 6700)...guess what, no GPS.

    (3) Telus is not even advertising the Touch w/ GPS at all--no mention, just emergency stuff in the manual.

    (4) It's not the drivers, it's the API and they don't exist and/or they are blocked by Sprint/Verizon/Telus, etc. No one is going to use the Kaiser drivers...it won't do jack.

    (5) From UTS re: GPS on the 6700. (edited for clarity).
    Response (Dario O.) 01/08/2007 02:16 PM
    I am UTStarcom PDA Coordinator: I looked up your name and we only see one from today when you spoke to Aly N.

    Your questions about the chipset are proprietary information some I cannot answer. The 6700 device does support GPS. The compatibility must be WM5.0 and must come with a bluetooth GPS connector.

    My questions / (D) for Dario

    Q:1. How can I place the phone into standalone mode?
    D: Sprint does not allow that feature through PPC6700 and there is no update for that feature.

    Q:2. Why (If it is disabled) is it disabled?
    D: Sprint disabled it

    Q:3. How (If it is disabled) is it disabled?
    D: Sprint's request

    Q:4. If something is preventing enabling, what is it?
    D: Proprietary information

    Q:5. Why did Standalone work on the first generations of ROMs on the 6600?
    D: Most likely with ROM 1.05wwe. Sprint and other carriers just wanted to disable that feature because they intend on not supporting "Standalone."

    Q:6. Why does a Verizon VX6700 Phone (which is the same phone?), have the ability to gather data from fieldtrial.exe's GPS tab when making a call (to phone number: 922 and the obvious 911)? Some other people who are also as interested in this as myself with the sprint carrier, have tried every single thing possible, including dialing 911, but still not one single bit of data appears in fieldtrial.exe
    D: Proprietary information


    Q:7. What is different between Sprint and Verizon's ROM that makes the change in operability, or am I missing something that is different in the schematics of the phone itself? D:Sprint's and Verizon's CDMA network and what they require to use in the 6700
    D: Where did you hear that? You install it through a storage card as an email attachment or through Enroller just sign in.


    Most people do not understand my point of view. It is possible for me to buy a Bluetooth GPS receiver and have better accuracy, but I choose not to. It's not about the accuracy, it's about having something there, but not being able to touch it, to use it, to explore it's potential. It would be like buying a new car with ONStar and not being able to use it because GM doesn't let you. I know this is definitely not the first inquiry you have received, and it will most likely not be the last.For this I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please feel free to do a little bit of investigation on this matter if you need to, and help me fix this problem. Thank you for your time and patience in reviewing this matter with me.

    D: We go by what the carrier request's. So if Sprint's want us to enable or disable some feature with in the phone we go by their standards. Unfortunately Sprint will not have more updates for the PPC6700
    I hope this sets the record straight: no accessible GPS on the Touch or any CDMA WM/POS device until the carriers decide to allow it.

    That's how CDMA rolls here in the Americas.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10-13-2007 at 12:58 AM.
    10-13-2007 12:34 AM
  16. surur's Avatar
    I hope this sets the record straight: no accessible GPS on the Touch or any CDMA WM/POS device until the carriers decide to allow it.

    That's how CDMA rolls here in the Americas.
    I dont see how it changes anything. Its there, it can be accessible, they have blocked it, but with some hackery it should be possible to enable it.

    The HTC Trinity initially shipped without standalone GPS, but a leaked ROM allowed people to enable it. With the AT&T Tilt using a very similar chipset having standalone GPS I really do not see why this wont be made to happen, unless CDMA hackers are less skilled.

    To simplify matters - do you think its possible in principle? If you say yes, its only a matter of some-one doing it.

    Surur
    10-13-2007 01:35 AM
  17. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    I dont see how it changes anything. Its there, it can be accessible, they have blocked it, but with some hackery it should be possible to enable it.

    The HTC Trinity initially shipped without standalone GPS, but a leaked ROM allowed people to enable it. With the AT&T Tilt using a very similar chipset having standalone GPS I really do not see why this wont be made to happen, unless CDMA hackers are less skilled.

    To simplify matters - do you think its possible in principle? If you say yes, its only a matter of some-one doing it.

    Surur
    No, I don't think it's possible in principle.

    It's been confirmed that on the 6800 there is no internal antenna or it is not connected. On the 6700, the msm6500 supports a triplex antenna (cdma, wifi, gps) but it appears to only be duplex in reality. Same thing with the 6800.

    It'd be interesting to pry open the Touch and see what the hardware shows, but I don't think the hardware is even there to allow it, despite any mention of antenna in the manual. Since Telus is not advertising anything about GPS as a feature, I'm not sure why this would be different from any other cdma aGPS device. The Telus and Sprint version will be identical in hardware.

    The Trinity was different: it had the hardware and just needed the software (radio firmware) which was leaked. Radio firmware though is something that is rarely "hacked"--it's instead just copied from similar devices (read about PRI and ppst files here). There is no hope in doing that with a GSM PRI/Radio ROM file to a CDMA one though and since there are no standalone CDMA GPS radio firmware's to copy or emulate, there is nothing to go off of.

    This is much harder then flicking the necessary switch, these CDMA devices appear to have crippled hardware and radio firmware. Tie in the lack of carrier support for accessible aGPS via their servers and you have little chance of this changing.

    Shadowmite and many others have the "skill"--but they just don't have anything to work with. These are the same who people built WM6 on the 6700 from scratch, which was no small feat.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10-13-2007 at 09:26 AM.
    10-13-2007 09:01 AM
  18. Dim-Ize's Avatar

    I am a sprint retailer and my rep was in giving the dl on the touch. HTC had visited with the phone. They are 100% trying to compete with the iPhone.

    It is not going to be a dual model, you must use the touchscreen for dialing and keyboard. They are going to "beefed up" compared to the GSM versions.

    Telenav will be available and it also comes with a built in 20 channel GPS for those of us who would rather use TomTom navigator and its maps.

    The phones are going to be $199 for new customers and 2 yr upgrades. After Black Friday/Hot Friday in November they are going to drop to $149.99.

    Sprint and HTC are also going to be allowing both EVDO software upgrades for REV A. Release AND offer upgrades to the OS (i.e Windows mobile 7?). I have heard alot of complaints on old PPC's about the lack of upgrade abilities.
    http://sprinttouch.net/Forum/tabid/1...s/Default.aspx

    Mal, have you seen a pre-release unit to confirm all your intel above? This post sounds like the complete opposite. Then again, the poster of this has only 1 credit to his name and I know you are plugged in...
    Last edited by Dim-Ize; 10-14-2007 at 09:18 PM.
    10-14-2007 05:34 PM
  19. surur's Avatar
    Mal's post comes down to "They wont let you." That can obviously change in an instant.

    Surur
    10-14-2007 06:13 PM
  20. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    http://sprinttouch.net/Forum/tabid/1...s/Default.aspx

    Mal, have you seen a pre-release unit to confirm all your intel above? This post sounds like the complete opposite. Then again, the poster of this has only 1 credit to his name and I know you are plugged in...
    Surur's right, it can change in an instant.

    Having said that, I'm very skeptical of that info above.

    At the most, I would expect Sprint to maybe allow TeleNav--that way they split the profits with that company for the monthly $10 fee. But to also allow TomTom? :o

    I mean it could happen, but I have heard nothing of the sort to suggest that is accurate. The same rumors were said about the 6800--just look at those early threads and you'll find many claiming that a Sprint rep told them it'll a) have GPS out the gate or b) it will come down the line via an update. The first is definitely false and there is no evidence for the second.

    I also really call into question the "WM7 upgrade". For one, that won't be out till late 2008 which is when the Touch will be getting close to EOL land. Number two, no one knows the hardware requirements for WM7 but it's a major rewrite of the OS, including a different kernal. All hints suggest it will require some different hardware architecture to run and I just don't see how HTC using the Qualcomm chipset and some older technology can possibly know what WM7 will require and how it will run. AFAIK, there are no SDKs or details that have been released to ODMs/OEMs, though I could be wrong on that.
    10-15-2007 04:22 PM
  21. bmnboy's Avatar
    maybe they are not referring to WM7, but hinting to something like WM6 SE?
    10-16-2007 05:45 PM
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