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03-14-2015 05:57 PM
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  1. anon8959613's Avatar
    Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger.
    Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
    Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a ham-bur-ger.
    Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
    Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger!
    Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen"!

    - The Pink Panther
    someone2639 likes this.
    02-18-2015 12:37 PM
  2. a5cent's Avatar
    Actually, you do. It's called the Store. Pull up an individual app in the store, and you'll see "Overview", "Reviews", "Details", and "Related". The main 2 sections I want to see is Overview and Details, and I have to swipe 2x to go back and forth. On a low end device, it is rather frustrating.

    How about MSN Weather, which comes with the device, but you may have uninstalled it.

    I'm not criticizing these, but you stated you didn't think you had an app installed where you could not reach the intended section with but a single swipe, and I'm just pointing out examples.
    Yup, I don't use MSN weather. I don't remember why I uninstalled it, but that may have been it.

    In regard to the store, and in my defence, I did say "I think"

    Four sections still seems ok to me however. I've never owned a low end device, so I can't say how frustrating that is. I currently use a mid range L830, and although it has a low-end SoC, it's more than nimble enough in the store. No problem. More than four sections is completely intolerable however. That is certainly a situation where a pivot shouldn't be used. However, that doesn't mean that pivots are generally bad either. You're surely aware that the key to all of these issues is to use the right tool for the job. There are some jobs where the pivot is the right tool.

    Let me rephrase:
    Of all the apps I use at least once a week, about twelve, none use pivots with more than three sections. That's how it should be. When used correctly, pivots are nice to work with. When used incorrectly, side panels are even worse, as they force you into a click-fest. Even more so than incorrectly used pivots require swiping.

    If all we're going to do is list situations where poorly designed apps fail when using a pivot, then we might as well stop using computers. Any UI element can fail in terms of UX when used poorly.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-19-2015 at 12:00 PM. Reason: spelling
    02-18-2015 12:59 PM
  3. tiziano27's Avatar
    This is so spot on. There is no traditional "tab control" in WP. The Pivot, which looks an awful lot like a tab control, was specifically NOT supposed to be used in that way. In the way that Microsoft envisioned and documented it, each panel on a pivot was to show the same data types and formats, but with different filters applied to each. The Email app is a follower of that model: each panel is a list of mail with a filter applied (none, unread, flagged, or urgent).
    I remember that. I could add that Metro in general wasn't designed to provide the information density that people wants in smartphones today. Metro was designer for an accessory device, not the main device in people's life.

    Metro hold back Windows Phone and It's one of the causes of the failure of the product. That's why Microsoft is introducing changes that improve the user experience.

    The hamburger menu is a good solution if used properly. Smartphones aren't designed to win a race of single thumb usage efficiency. There are more important aspects of the user experience that also deserve attention.
    02-18-2015 01:15 PM
  4. manicottiK's Avatar
    Actually, the mouse does not always stop at the edge of the screen. Imagine using multiple monitors where they are "extended desktops." This is the way I've been running my desktop PC for over 5 years. It is pretty much impossible for me to stop at the sides of the primary monitor when it moves to the monitor to the left or right of it. Just sayin'.
    Well, the "edge" is the edge of the logical display area, not each physical sub-component. (I'm driving three screens now and occasionally extend to a large wall-mounted panel that's 14" away -- moving my mouse between the main ones and that is always a mental challenge because I never remember where I put it! ;)

    For more on this idea, see Particletree Visualizing Fitts?s Law and scroll down to the "Rule of the Infinite Edge" section.

    Fun fact, at Win8, Microsoft put small "gates" in the corners of your monitors so that the mouse wouldn't automatically slide from one to the other and effectively making the corners "infinitely sized" even in a multi-monitor setup. If you have two monitors with an aligned top edge, start sliding the mouse sideways from one to the other along the top edge -- the mouse will stop at the corner. The "gate" is only a few pixels tall, so it's easy to move around.
    02-18-2015 02:13 PM
  5. manicottiK's Avatar
    I could add that Metro in general wasn't designed to provide the information density that people want in smartphones today.
    I agree, but think that people only mistakenly think that they want high information density. In my younger days I'd be willing to argue that everyone is wrong and their wrongness can be proved empirically. Too paternalistic or condescending? Maybe -- but it remains true that people often demand the exact opposite of what's best for them. Now, let me take off this Fitbit and eat another cookie...
    drachen23 likes this.
    02-18-2015 02:18 PM
  6. tiziano27's Avatar
    Now, let me take off this Fitbit and eat another cookie...
    A hamburger would be more appropriate.
    02-18-2015 04:44 PM
  7. manicottiK's Avatar
    A hamburger would be more appropriate.
    Darn it, how did I miss that!? I must be slipping (possibly on hamburger grease).
    02-18-2015 05:33 PM
  8. TonyRAnderson's Avatar
    They got rid of them to help get more apps I think. By embracing the current designs of iOS and Android, they feel devs can now more easily port over their apps to Windows. And at the same time, Microsoft can create a consistent feel in their apps as well across all platforms.
    02-18-2015 05:56 PM
  9. Kram Sacul's Avatar
    While I understand your point, I must disagree. The "more elegant, compact, and positioned near your thumb" solution that Microsoft has been using makes it nearly impossible for me to use the menus. My fingers and thumbs are simply too broad (fat, whatever, though I'm not overweight) to be able to use it effectively. 90% of the time, I have to try 4 or 5 times to be able to get it to even come up, because I hit everything around it. Remember when, in the movie Fantastic Four, the Thing tried to pick up the engagement ring that his fiance left on the pavement for him, and he couldn't get it because of his oversized fingers? That's how I feel trying to hit those 3 dots most of the time. Very frustrated. The hamburger menu I can hit on the first try most times, sometimes it takes a second try, but never so many multiple tries as it does with the 3 dots. I'll be glad to see those go.
    Try swiping up instead of touching the ellipsis. In some apps you don't even have to touch the ... You can just swipe up from the bar to get to the options. It's inconsistent though. It works in the pictures gallery, messaging, maps, games, calendar, but not in phone, people, the store, etc. The touch targets also vary.
    a5cent and aaa6112 like this.
    02-18-2015 06:09 PM
  10. WPit's Avatar
    Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger.
    Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
    Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a ham-bur-ger.
    Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen".
    Dialect Instructor: I would like to buy a hamburger!
    Inspector Jacques Clouseau: I would like to buy a "damburgen"!

    - The Pink Panther
    .
    .
    .

    - You imbecile, not now Cato! Joke ; ) ! I just love Sellers!
    02-19-2015 06:40 AM
  11. steppyhen's Avatar
    Try swiping up instead of touching the ellipsis. In some apps you don't even have to touch the ... You can just swipe up from the bar to get to the options. It's inconsistent though. It works in the pictures gallery, messaging, maps, games, calendar, but not in phone, people, the store, etc. The touch targets also vary.
    I didn't know you could swipe up from the '...' - thanks!

    I'm not bowled over by the hamburger icon, I think more that it is in the top left hand corner. If it was somewhere more reachable then I may be happier with it, but we'll see how things change over the coming months through new TP builds and feedback MS receive...
    02-19-2015 09:52 AM
  12. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    02-19-2015 11:37 AM
  13. drachen23's Avatar
    I agree, but think that people only mistakenly think that they want high information density. In my younger days I'd be willing to argue that everyone is wrong and their wrongness can be proved empirically.
    Amen, brother.
    02-19-2015 11:41 AM
  14. TechFreak1's Avatar
    Personally I'm currently on the fence in regards to the changes to the UX, I will decide after using it myself for awhile if it works for me or not.

    I won't lie the windows phone fan in me cringed "why microsoft! why?!" after I saw the leaks and screenshots . After the initial shock I have had plenty of time to think about it.

    Never the less this the first build, things can change between now & launch.
    bschiav and ven07 like this.
    02-19-2015 12:00 PM
  15. worldspy99's Avatar
    One of the biggest reasons I am a fan on WP is the ability to use the phone and navigate using one hand....the hamburger in the top left corner just defeats the purpose which one of my biggest gripes with Android. And iOS is just so clunky in terms of figuring out what to do in the app with a complete mishmash of toggles and buttons unique to each app, that one button in the middle kinda ruins it for me...

    When someone asks me why I use WP, the navigation bar at the bottom with the 3 dots is what I show them and it usually wows people on iOS or Android because the simplicity / elegance of it is unparalleled IMO.
    02-19-2015 12:30 PM
  16. Skamath's Avatar
    I'm amazed by how well Kram Sacul put it. If they force us to use it, I'll probably get used to it, but that doesn't mean I'll like it.

    Look at the old version of Alarms, and look at the new version of Alarms (in W10), and tell me which one looks better.
    http://assets.windowsphone.com/ec9dc...re_Default.jpg

    I know it ain't a final product, but still, keep design in mind please.
    Is that the alarm with Win 10 preview? I have something which works and looks very similar called realarm. I have already ditched the generic alarm.
    02-19-2015 09:38 PM
  17. negative1ne's Avatar
    I'm amazed by how well Kram Sacul put it. If they force us to use it, I'll probably get used to it, but that doesn't mean I'll like it.

    Look at the old version of Alarms, and look at the new version of Alarms (in W10), and tell me which one looks better.
    http://assets.windowsphone.com/ec9dc...re_Default.jpg

    I know it ain't a final product, but still, keep design in mind please.
    the new version looks horrible and bloated compared to the elegant simplicity of the standard alarm.

    alarms_04.jpg

    i can't tell how you set the new alarm, it looks imprecise and hard to set,
    on the standard version its simple and no guessing trying to set it.

    later
    -1
    02-19-2015 10:16 PM
  18. manicottiK's Avatar
    the new version looks horrible and bloated compared to the elegant simplicity of the standard alarm.
    Wow, I think that the time picker is the weakest control in WP7 or 8. Picking times around 30 minutes are tough because they requite lots of swiping of the minutes.

    i can't tell how you set the new alarm, it looks imprecise and hard to set,
    on the standard version its simple and no guessing trying to set it.
    You can't see how to change the alarm time because the picture that you quoted shows an already-set alarm. The one below shows the "editing mode" version. The "handles" for the hours and minutes are quite easy to adjust.
    alarms.jpg
    Joe920 likes this.
    02-20-2015 04:29 PM
  19. fatclue_98's Avatar
    All this talk of Hamburgers makes me want to go to Fuddrucker's.

    Anyhoo, did it ever occur to anyone that this might be a precursor to stylus use? I'd much rather tap a drill-down than swipe across my display if using a stylus.
    02-20-2015 04:51 PM
  20. Blacklac's Avatar
    If we were planning to use a stylus, we'd be expecting 2 handed use. Therefore, the location of the hamburger would be of no concern.

    That's my only gripe. The hamburger's are usually the furthest point from my hand holding the device. I wish they would move it down to the lower right, like the typical WP "..." option toggle.
    02-20-2015 04:55 PM
  21. fatclue_98's Avatar
    If we were planning to use a stylus, we'd be expecting 2 handed use. Therefore, the location of the hamburger would be of no concern.
    The way phones have been going lately, they're all two-handed. I've got big mitts but even I have to use both hands for my 1520. I can see using one hand on a 4:3 display like I used to do with a LG Intuition I had. My thumb could reach all 4 corners, but not on a 16:9.
    02-20-2015 05:10 PM
  22. negative1ne's Avatar
    Wow, I think that the time picker is the weakest control in WP7 or 8. Picking times around 30 minutes are tough because they requite lots of swiping of the minutes.


    You can't see how to change the alarm time because the picture that you quoted shows an already-set alarm. The one below shows the "editing mode" version. The "handles" for the hours and minutes are quite easy to adjust.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    i don't even see the am/pm option on it. i'm sure it's hidden somewhere, ugh.

    also trying to move the circular slider around looks tricky trying to get exactly to what you want
    unless the sensitivity is good.

    i'll stick with the basic one.

    later
    -1
    02-20-2015 07:30 PM
  23. manicottiK's Avatar
    i don't even see the am/pm option on it. i'm sure it's hidden somewhere, ugh.

    also trying to move the circular slider around looks tricky trying to get exactly to what you want
    unless the sensitivity is good.

    i'll stick with the basic one.

    later
    -1
    It's not hidden, I simply cropped it out to focus on the rings. Well, the hour slider snaps to whole numbers and the minutes it's pretty easy, too.
    02-20-2015 07:55 PM
  24. wuiyang's Avatar
    i don't even see the am/pm option on it. i'm sure it's hidden somewhere, ugh.

    also trying to move the circular slider around looks tricky trying to get exactly to what you want
    unless the sensitivity is good.

    i'll stick with the basic one.

    later
    -1
    that was a 24-hour spin-clock
    02-22-2015 09:29 AM
  25. Qais Abu-Hasan's Avatar
    Nope. If I wanted to use a clunky poorly designed OS I would've continued to stick with Android 3 years ago. All this "better get used to this" nonsense is a big FU to many people that were drawn to WP in the first place. The big magazine like headers, the pivots, the layout of apps were all a part of what set WP apart. It's called STYLE. Sadly somewhere along the way MS forgot about this.

    The hamburger menu is just a poor man's way of getting to other options. With WP we have ... which is much more elegant, compact, and positioned near your thumb. There is no reason to accept the asinine idea that we suddenly need hamburger buttons. The last time I checked Windows 10 isn't a mobile website.
    True true true !!!! This os exactly what brought me to wp 6 months ago !and I'm not into this hamburger menu coz my 1520,is rather too big to stretch my thumb to get to it !
    wpn00b likes this.
    02-22-2015 09:58 AM
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