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02-11-2017 08:44 AM
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  1. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    Man a PC pocket is still somewhat different from a smartphone. Just because you can carry your laptop around all day doesn't mean you won't be using your smartphone. And even when the surface phone comes out the app problem won't be solved, because there aren't that many programs for all services, and (if I get it right) they're not all optimized to work on small screens.
    I was quoting the and speaking from the Windows Central article from MS on the MS future of their "Smartphone"/Surface Phone. Debate with them...

    This is 2 screens not 1, sometimes merged into 1 screen:capture.png

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    Alyeldiin and Laura Knotek like this.
    02-05-2017 09:42 AM
  2. petvas72's Avatar
    If Microsoft wants a chance in the mobile phone business, then they must improve the app situation. Having only continuum will not make things any better.
    xandros9 likes this.
    02-05-2017 11:49 AM
  3. TgeekB's Avatar
    If Microsoft wants a chance in the mobile phone business, then they must improve the app situation. Having only continuum will not make things any better.
    Not saying you're wrong, just posing a question. Will apps be around forever? Will there ever be something new and different that takes over? If so, how soon?
    Interesting topics to contemplate.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    02-05-2017 03:00 PM
  4. petvas72's Avatar
    Not saying you're wrong, just posing a question. Will apps be around forever? Will there ever be something new and different that takes over? If so, how soon?
    Interesting topics to contemplate.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Apps might go one day, but the functionality people get from these apps will not. I don't know if the future is based on bots only or some kind of new technology. What is important is that the functionality is there..
    02-05-2017 03:05 PM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    Apps might go one day, but the functionality people get from these apps will not. I don't know if the future is based on bots only or some kind of new technology. What is important is that the functionality is there..
    True. Technology is always changing.
    That's why I think MS has smartly moved on. The smartphone/app market has been written. I don't think there's anything they could do at this point to get back in the game and it would be a waste of time and money since it won't last forever. They must plan to move forward to the next upcoming breakthrough.
    I don't know what it is, and I'm not convinced they'll be successful, but it's exciting to think about and I am going to enjoy going along for the ride.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    02-05-2017 03:12 PM
  6. petvas72's Avatar
    True. Technology is always changing.
    That's why I think MS has smartly moved on. The smartphone/app market has been written. I don't think there's anything they could do at this point to get back in the game and it would be a waste of time and money since it won't last forever. They must plan to move forward to the next upcoming breakthrough.
    I don't know what it is, and I'm not convinced they'll be successful, but it's exciting to think about and I am going to enjoy going along for the ride.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Yes, they seem to move along, but the question is, should windows fans continue investing their time and money in Windows Mobile? I think the answer is no..
    theefman likes this.
    02-05-2017 03:40 PM
  7. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    Yes, they seem to move along, but the question is, should windows fans continue investing their time and money in Windows Mobile? I think the answer is no..
    All fans don't have the same criteria for being a fan. For example, for me there is no App Gap and there won't be for the foreseeable future. And other than that, the hardware also meets my needs. Say I'm retired and my needs are less. So my ICON can last me for probably another 2 years. In 2 YEARS we're ALL gonna know what the future is because we'll be in it...

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    petvas72 likes this.
    02-05-2017 04:33 PM
  8. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    A Windows Central article, Does Windows 10 Mobile Have A Future

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    02-05-2017 04:45 PM
  9. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yes, they seem to move along, but the question is, should windows fans continue investing their time and money in Windows Mobile? I think the answer is no..
    How about we let each individual make that decision.
    For me it meets my needs, but we're all different so I respect your decision.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    02-05-2017 05:41 PM
  10. a5cent's Avatar
    A Windows Central article, Does Windows 10 Mobile Have A Future.
    Thanks for the link. However, I don't find the article convincing at all. In his analysis Zac doesn't consider much beyond "lightweight OS" (W10M) for low end devices vs. heavyweight OS (W10oA) for high end devices. That's a very narrow view.

    In particular, it completely ignores the reasons why W10M was created in the first place. W10M is a far more secure OS than full Windows can ever be (among many other things also by requiring users to download software through a managed store). It requires almost no administrative/maintenance work like desktop Windows does (no registry rot, no unclean uninstall etc). It deals not only with keyboards and mice, but also with touch. It scales well on high dpi displays like the ones smartphones have. And much much more... the Win32 desktop environment will not achieve any of that easily, at least not without sacrificing compatibility, which is not an option.

    All of the above things are still required! It's expected from a modern OS. What version of Windows delivers those features without including Win32 and the desktop (the inclusion of which would negate all the benefits)? W10M? Windows Cloud?

    I have not read enough about the Windows Cloud SKU to really understand it. If it is true that it is really only a version of Windows that is limited to using apps from the Store (a.k.a UWP apps), well guess what? We already have that! That is exactly what W10M is.

    Lastly, Zak mentions that W10M could be repositioned for more than just phones, but it actually already is. It was said from the outset (over two years ago) that W10M is also for tablets.

    So, take W10M, install it on a 5" device with a foldable display that can be unfolded to 10". Rename the OS to Windows Cloud (despite having nothing to do with the cloud). Presto: Surface booklet (or whatever they call it) running Windows Cloud... actually W10M repositioned as a Chromebook competitor rather than an Android competitor.

    I would not be surprised if Windows Cloud is just the next big iteration of W10M but rebranded.

    Some might think that makes no sense, because W10M (the OS) must look different on a tablet than on a phone. That is wrong. The OS stays the same. It's the individual apps (dialer, people, contacts, photos, etc) that adapt their UIs to different screen sizes. That's what continuum is, and that is encoded in the individual apps already today, not in the OS.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-06-2017 at 03:56 PM.
    02-05-2017 10:02 PM
  11. HeyCori's Avatar
    Microsoft was likely sincere in their desire to focus on enterprise. They aligned themselves with HP and created Continuum as something to sell to businesses, I just don't think businesses were biting. Justifiably, there's no reason to. Companies (like general consumers) don't live in a vacuum. No one can rely on the software created by just one company. There's an entire software ecosystem that businesses lose access to by choosing Windows phone. So maybe Microsoft thought they could leverage their strength in enterprise to jump start the WP market, but again, businesses don't want a device with such huge limitations. And it remains to be seen if/when consumers will ever want a single device that does everything.

    I do believe the smartest move Microsoft can make at the moment is to keep pushing UWP and the Windows Store. There are hundreds of millions of Windows 10 PCs out there along with some 20-30 million Xbox Ones. Microsoft needs to kick UWP into high gear, especially if they plan on using Windows 10 Cloud to compete with Chromebooks. The phone market is over for MS and they know it. Time to focus on their strengths which is PCs and consoles.
    02-05-2017 11:38 PM
  12. a5cent's Avatar
    Microsoft was likely sincere in their desire to focus on enterprise. They aligned themselves with HP and created Continuum as something to sell to businesses, I just don't think businesses were biting.
    I have a different take on this.

    Continuum was neither built for nor specifically targeted towards the enterprise. Continuum is simply a logical result of the UWP and One Core. That is to say, if you have a single runtime environment (UWP) running on a very wide range of form factors, and you want the ability to taget all form factors with a single program, you must provide a mechanism for app UIs to adapt to different display sizes. That is all continuum is. It's a natural and necessary result of wanting the UWP everywhere. Continuum was not targeted at any specific market segment. It had to be created, and it would have been created no matter what market MS is focused on.

    The UWP was itself born out of WinRT, and WinRT was born because MS needed a simpler and more CONSUMER FRIENDLY OS. An OS with all the features I mentioned in my previous post. An OS that doesn't ever require IT knowledge to maintain in perfect working order. That's what the UWP (without Win32) is now intended to provide, and that is far more important for attracting consumers than it is to attract enterprise clients with IT departments.

    IMHO we are only now starting to see the results of MS' focus on the enterprise. That focus was not so much on Continuum, but on things like W10oA. In contrast to the UWP and Continuum, which could become important to corporations in the future, W10oA is important to corporations now, because it gives their employees access to their existing Windows desktop software in a very small and portable (and likely also cheep) package.

    This also fits quite well in the overall timeline of things. Software is very labour intensive. If MS announces a tactical shift in terms of what market they are focusing on, it will certainly take more than one or two months until the results are noticed in the market. Anything MS releases today was likely conceptualized at least a year ago. Often two years ago.
    Last edited by a5cent; 02-06-2017 at 04:02 PM.
    HeyCori, libra89 and Shamshi-Adad like this.
    02-06-2017 12:27 AM
  13. cactuspete23's Avatar
    Like seeing companies try new and different things.. And MS is big enough to come up with somethiung cool.. and big enough to absorb a few mistakes or things that don't work. Small mobile devices and phones will continue to be a large enough market that MS should always be trying to enter and/or increase market share. (Along with 1000's of other companies!)
    Shamshi-Adad and TgeekB like this.
    02-06-2017 06:24 AM
  14. mattiasnyc's Avatar
    Man a PC pocket is still somewhat different from a smartphone. Just because you can carry your laptop around all day doesn't mean you won't be using your smartphone.
    True, but I think people currently use smartphones while carrying laptops because a) they're smaller, b) they have better battery life, and c) they've got internet connection. MS' approach would basically allow for 'bigger' app in a smaller package using ARM and with an internet connection. So with a smaller screen you'll draw less power, and the question then is just what size you prefer.

    And even when the surface phone comes out the app problem won't be solved, because there aren't that many programs for all services, and (if I get it right) they're not all optimized to work on small screens.
    But that's another place where MS is attempting to change how technology works, both for users and for developers. If I understand things correctly MS envisions that in the future there will be more reasons to code for UWP, and upcoming versions of W10 will allow for much more fluidity between form factors and processors. So you pretty much code once for UWP and it'll run fine on any size device running either x86 CPUs or ARM.

    For us consumers what they appear to be thinking is that we want the "Windows 10 experience", regardless of the size of the device and how the software is coded and where it lives. If some experiences can be done using bots and an internet connection, but some require a UWP app, we "won't know it" necessarily, because it all looks the same to us. You move down to a certain screen size and you get your tiles, if you want to, and interact that way. You get to a place where there's a "dumb" screen/keyboard available and you connect to it instead, giving you more of a desktop experience, if you want to.

    So the whole notion of "smartphone" in a sense goes out the window because all it really will be in the future is a "Windows 10 experience" on a smaller device. Look at it this way;

    - if the current development of Continuum continues we'll have pretty much a desktop experience with compatible apps but using a "smartphone"

    - if the projected development of Windows 10 continues we'll have pretty much a phone/tablet experience with compatible apps but using a desktop OS

    In other words, to us the user the difference becomes meaningless. The only thing that matters to us is; is it Windows 10? and is this the size I want?



    I digressed a little bit. I think my main point was just that MS thinks that in the future the way developers choose to code may change, and MS will adapt their technology in such a way that a "Windows 10 experience" will work fluidly on any device size. The developers won't have to choose between one or the other.
    02-06-2017 12:40 PM
  15. TgeekB's Avatar
    True, but I think people currently use smartphones while carrying laptops because a) they're smaller, b) they have better battery life, and c) they've got internet connection. MS' approach would basically allow for 'bigger' app in a smaller package using ARM and with an internet connection. So with a smaller screen you'll draw less power, and the question then is just what size you prefer.



    But that's another place where MS is attempting to change how technology works, both for users and for developers. If I understand things correctly MS envisions that in the future there will be more reasons to code for UWP, and upcoming versions of W10 will allow for much more fluidity between form factors and processors. So you pretty much code once for UWP and it'll run fine on any size device running either x86 CPUs or ARM.

    For us consumers what they appear to be thinking is that we want the "Windows 10 experience", regardless of the size of the device and how the software is coded and where it lives. If some experiences can be done using bots and an internet connection, but some require a UWP app, we "won't know it" necessarily, because it all looks the same to us. You move down to a certain screen size and you get your tiles, if you want to, and interact that way. You get to a place where there's a "dumb" screen/keyboard available and you connect to it instead, giving you more of a desktop experience, if you want to.

    So the whole notion of "smartphone" in a sense goes out the window because all it really will be in the future is a "Windows 10 experience" on a smaller device. Look at it this way;

    - if the current development of Continuum continues we'll have pretty much a desktop experience with compatible apps but using a "smartphone"

    - if the projected development of Windows 10 continues we'll have pretty much a phone/tablet experience with compatible apps but using a desktop OS

    In other words, to us the user the difference becomes meaningless. The only thing that matters to us is; is it Windows 10? and is this the size I want?



    I digressed a little bit. I think my main point was just that MS thinks that in the future the way developers choose to code may change, and MS will adapt their technology in such a way that a "Windows 10 experience" will work fluidly on any device size. The developers won't have to choose between one or the other.
    Thank you. You've said it more technologically eloquent than I ever could. I am excited about the future of Windows and nothing would make me want them to copy Android or iPhone. They are creating the future (fingers crossed).

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    02-06-2017 03:52 PM
  16. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    True, but I think people currently use smartphones while carrying laptops because a) they're smaller, b) they have better battery life, and c) they've got internet connection. MS' approach would basically allow for 'bigger' app in a smaller package using ARM and with an internet connection. So with a smaller screen you'll draw less power, and the question then is just what size you prefer.

    But that's another place where MS is attempting to change how technology works, both for users and for developers. If I understand things correctly MS envisions that in the future there will be more reasons to code for UWP, and upcoming versions of W10 will allow for much more fluidity between form factors and processors. So you pretty much code once for UWP and it'll run fine on any size device running either x86 CPUs or ARM.

    For us consumers what they appear to be thinking is that we want the "Windows 10 experience", regardless of the size of the device and how the software is coded and where it lives. If some experiences can be done using bots and an internet connection, but some require a UWP app, we "won't know it" necessarily, because it all looks the same to us. You move down to a certain screen size and you get your tiles, if you want to, and interact that way. You get to a place where there's a "dumb" screen/keyboard available and you connect to it instead, giving you more of a desktop experience, if you want to.

    So the whole notion of "smartphone" in a sense goes out the window because all it really will be in the future is a "Windows 10 experience" on a smaller device. Look at it this way;

    - if the current development of Continuum continues we'll have pretty much a desktop experience with compatible apps but using a "smartphone"

    - if the projected development of Windows 10 continues we'll have pretty much a phone/tablet experience with compatible apps but using a desktop OS

    In other words, to us the user the difference becomes meaningless. The only thing that matters to us is; is it Windows 10? and is this the size I want?

    I digressed a little bit. I think my main point was just that MS thinks that in the future the way developers choose to code may change, and MS will adapt their technology in such a way that a "Windows 10 experience" will work fluidly on any device size. The developers won't have to choose between one or the other.
    Bravo!

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    a5cent and HeyCori like this.
    02-06-2017 04:21 PM
  17. Alyeldiin's Avatar
    True, but I think people currently use smartphones while carrying laptops because a) they're smaller, b) they have better battery life, and c) they've got internet connection. MS' approach would basically allow for 'bigger' app in a smaller package using ARM and with an internet connection. So with a smaller screen you'll draw less power, and the question then is just what size you prefer.



    But that's another place where MS is attempting to change how technology works, both for users and for developers. If I understand things correctly MS envisions that in the future there will be more reasons to code for UWP, and upcoming versions of W10 will allow for much more fluidity between form factors and processors. So you pretty much code once for UWP and it'll run fine on any size device running either x86 CPUs or ARM.

    For us consumers what they appear to be thinking is that we want the "Windows 10 experience", regardless of the size of the device and how the software is coded and where it lives. If some experiences can be done using bots and an internet connection, but some require a UWP app, we "won't know it" necessarily, because it all looks the same to us. You move down to a certain screen size and you get your tiles, if you want to, and interact that way. You get to a place where there's a "dumb" screen/keyboard available and you connect to it instead, giving you more of a desktop experience, if you want to.

    So the whole notion of "smartphone" in a sense goes out the window because all it really will be in the future is a "Windows 10 experience" on a smaller device. Look at it this way;

    - if the current development of Continuum continues we'll have pretty much a desktop experience with compatible apps but using a "smartphone"

    - if the projected development of Windows 10 continues we'll have pretty much a phone/tablet experience with compatible apps but using a desktop OS

    In other words, to us the user the difference becomes meaningless. The only thing that matters to us is; is it Windows 10? and is this the size I want?



    I digressed a little bit. I think my main point was just that MS thinks that in the future the way developers choose to code may change, and MS will adapt their technology in such a way that a "Windows 10 experience" will work fluidly on any device size. The developers won't have to choose between one or the other.
    You sir might have just persuaded me. Well, almost. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen. I also still see no harm in Microsoft pushing for W10M, as they are still developing it, they might as well have kept it "more alive" - Looking forward to read counter arguments to yours. Cheers.
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    02-06-2017 04:33 PM
  18. Narr's Avatar
    The big issue I currently have with Windows Mobile being business focused is that some of their business apps are horrible to use. They have good support for Intune but Yammer and Skype for Business are old and on life support and don't seem to have been updated in years. Plus MS bang's on about the bridges but they haven't used them for these 2 apps. Microsoft just don't seem very engaged in making Mobile a success.
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    02-06-2017 04:33 PM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    You sir might have just persuaded me. Well, almost. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen. I also still see no harm in Microsoft pushing for W10M, as they are still developing it, they might as well have kept it "more alive" - Looking forward to read counter arguments to yours. Cheers.
    That's a good point and one of the things that is keeping me positive - they are actively developing/updating W10M. Being in the insider program allows me to see this. If that wasn't happening it would be much more difficult.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    02-06-2017 04:49 PM
  20. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    That's a good point and one of the things that is keeping me positive - they are actively developing/updating W10M. Being in the insider program allows me to see this. If that wasn't happening it would be much more difficult.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    If I wasn't on the Insider Fast Ring I would be bored, just waiting around for the future of Win 10 M.

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    mattiasnyc and TgeekB like this.
    02-06-2017 05:01 PM
  21. a5cent's Avatar
    The big issue I currently have with Windows Mobile being business focused...
    I'm convinced W10M is not business focused and never was!


    That is exactly why we don't hear much about it at the moment... because MS is currently more focused on things that actually are relevant to businesses' mobile needs, like W10oA.
    libra89, xandros9 and Shamshi-Adad like this.
    02-06-2017 07:11 PM
  22. Alyeldiin's Avatar
    If I wasn't on the Insider Fast Ring I would be bored, just waiting around for the future of Win 10 M.

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    actually, I am bored in that matter. But having just one device that is also your daily driver, you can't jump on the insider program and face unexpected bugs and issues at times you could be critically needing your phone.
    libra89 and Shamshi-Adad like this.
    02-07-2017 11:25 AM
  23. SlideWRX's Avatar
    ...MS thinks that in the future the way developers choose to code may change, and MS will adapt their technology in such a way that a "Windows 10 experience" will work fluidly on any device size. The developers won't have to choose between one or the other.
    This is ultimately what it comes down to, from MS's point of view. Whether developers code legacy programs, or apps through the store, MS is trying to setup so that the consumer and professional customers have access to both on practically any device. To do that, they need a desktop style interface for every device, and a touch screen interface for every device. They want a consumer style OS (no tech support needed) and a professional style OS (IT department).
    02-07-2017 11:50 AM
  24. Shamshi-Adad's Avatar
    actually, I am bored in that matter. But having just one device that is also your daily driver, you can't jump on the insider program and face unexpected bugs and issues at times you could be critically needing your phone.
    Almost everyone on the Latest Fast Ring Thread does precisely that.

    Peace. Alan
    Galaxy S7Edge [MM6.0.1] Full Dresser
    Lumia ICON [Win10M 15025.1000] Sportster
    Even when I lose, I win.
    02-07-2017 11:51 AM
  25. TgeekB's Avatar
    actually, I am bored in that matter. But having just one device that is also your daily driver, you can't jump on the insider program and face unexpected bugs and issues at times you could be critically needing your phone.
    I'm on slow ring with my daily driver. Pretty safe.

    Sent from my Alcatel Idol 4S
    Shamshi-Adad likes this.
    02-07-2017 02:23 PM
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