06-05-2015 10:49 AM
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  1. michail71's Avatar
    MS needs to back it up with working with companies of some of the needed apps, killer flagship phones, good marketing and actual hands on floor space in the stores.

    With the decommission of the 1520 there are no devices to compete with the Samsung devices.
    04-30-2015 10:22 AM
  2. Tsang Fai's Avatar
    I think the questions remain whether or not apps that have no use on desktop will be available or not.

    Nobody will use banking apps on their desktops, so will the banks be interested or not?

    Games will probably be available, since those would be popular on desktops, tablets and phones.
    Agree.

    I'm optimistic that the app gap would get smaller at least for games. Playing games with Windows tablets/hybrids can be as wonderful as on phones or some Android tablets. When using a Windows tablet with screen size >10", the experience is even more fantastic (there are just a few Android tablet with screen size >10" and for iPad Air just 9.7").

    So I predict the Windows Store will receive a major growth with more and more games ported from Android/iOS. This would bring more potential WP users to go for WP. Hopefully this would also attract those non-game app developers to port their apps to Windows Store.
    Laura Knotek and prasath1234 like this.
    04-30-2015 10:26 AM
  3. snowmutt's Avatar
    It is really nice that one portion of Build that Windows phone users were the most worried about- Android app adoption- actually became the thing mostly applauded. It is fantastic to have something to point to and FINALLY say- "See? Microsoft really does want their mobile OS to succeed!!"

    There is . as a few posters pointed out already, no guarantees this translates to developers coming to Windows 10. But it is this kind of work that shows MS is putting great minds and smart resources to solve problems for their user base.

    In the end... can we really ask more?
    04-30-2015 10:32 AM
  4. snowmutt's Avatar
    Actually, before people get into cheerleader mode, I would encourage them to look at the developer blogs and sites from yesterday that are not already Windows focused. By that I mean the ones they are trying to attract. The response has ranged from mild interest to skepticism to disinterest to outright disdain. No one is jumping up and saying this has changed their development plans, with one of the most consistent comments (even among the interested) being it doesn't change the fact maintenance costs on a low user base app make it a non-starter. I am sorry to tell people but this is going absolutely nowhere since it still does not address the underlying problem. Developers are not on board and have been actively moving away because the users are not there to justify. As has also been rightly pointed out, which Microsoft refuses to acknowledges, expanding the user base to include Windows laptop and desktop users, changes nothing because that huge base are not the same type of user as those who make up the target (Android & IOS) markets. One would have thought Windows 8.X would have forced that recognition by now.
    Stevie.... Stevie..... Stevie......

    Is it hard to stay in this bad of a mood for this long? Lighten up. This is a good day. Enjoy a lemonade and some happy afterglow.

    We will know by the end of 2016 how this works. Let's give it a year and see if the users and the developers finally give Windows mobility (see what I did there??) a chance.
    Guytronic and Laura Knotek like this.
    04-30-2015 10:40 AM
  5. jleebiker's Avatar
    In the end... can we really ask more?
    Ruggedized handsets like the Samsung G5 Active!

    Ok, I'm kinda kidding since that's been a mantra for me. I really hope handset manufacturers look at this and say "You know what, maybe we should start making more devices for WP. What do we have to lose?" I know this is going to take time though. The sales have to be there before the hardware comes, but the sales won't come without the hardware. It's the Catch-22 that's been there for years. WP really needs some flagship (or in my case, ruggedized but sublime) devices.

    MS has to back the sexier handsets out there. They have to sell the sizzle.
    Laura Knotek and snowmutt like this.
    04-30-2015 10:49 AM
  6. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    As much as I LOVE Windows Phone OS and as much as Windows 10 is part of my day-to-day work... I wonder how many devs will really jump on this boat. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see app parity across platforms (cough) Facebook (cough)... But what is the incentive for iOS and Droid developers to add yet another overhead to their process? It's not to get apps into the WP marketshare. Would it be to get into the Windows 10 (desktop) marketshare? If that's the path, aren't the apps there already (for all intents and purposes)?

    ​It's kind of like what Laura was saying above.
    First, the overhead is not high anymore. From a financials standpoint and a labor hours standpoint, the new SDKs allow for minimal time and money investment. Compiling is superfast on modern computers and the mods needs to plug in Cortana and Live Tile support are minimal. It's essentially cut and paste to replace Google location services with Bing, etc. I'm not developer but a family member is. I was told that it looks like you can turn an iOS app into a Windows app in less than a day, possibly in only a few hours depending on the compile time.

    That means if an app begins in only iOS or Android, it will be faster and cheaper to bring it to Windows than to bring it to the other large OS base. It is much more difficult to take a new iOS app and make it for Android than it is to move it to Windows. The overhead is almost zero.

    It's also about more than phones, as they showed in the Continuum demo. A premium phone with Windows will soon be able to be a desktop in your pocket. So Desktop apps do matter. They set up an infrastructure that is very scalable and encourages developers to benefit the desktop market - which could be huge - while also benefiting handhelds.

    Remember, these are UNIVERSAL apps. One binary hits desktop, laptop, tablet, phone, Xbox, IOT, and HoloLens. You can create a single app that is scalable.

    People here like to talk phones, but it's bigger than that. Microsoft has built their tablet marketshare and are expected by many to control 20% or more of the tablet space by next year (not counting convertibles that are shipped with detachable keyboard). They still will be over 90% of the desktop/laptop market with many of those devices being touchscreen enabled. They also have demoed a new technology that many will want to get on the ground floor of because no one else is making a similar product - and it's quite easy to bring your iOS or Android app to HoloLens.

    So it's targeting all devices and a wide variety of users with a single code base that can be brought over from pretty much any platform. If Windows does hit a billion, I suspect many of those brought over apps may be redone in C# as the platform becomes entrenched and the economic model predictable.

    The phones are maybe 100 million right now. Add in tablet and Windows and that number will climb well over 200 million in less than a year from now. My guess with the free upgrade is that we will see nearly 500 million users in the Windows Store just one year from now. That's Google Play sized, kids. With the global carrier billing and app suggestions, Microsoft showed how they can monetize your app better than their competitors. I watched a lot of that keynote and that point was driven home - Microsoft is going to make the world's largest digital storefront, they're going to make it inexpensive for you to participate, and they are going to give you the best tools to monetize what you do.

    Devs will see the dollar signs. If MS hadn't announce Windows 10 as a free upgrade, skepticism would reign because people would have to pay for an upgrade. They don't have to, making the big numbers far more realistic.

    If you're a dev and it'll cost you near zero to move your app over from iOS or Android, why would you not want to participate just in case MS is right and they do get a billion? What happens if your competitors are there and you are not and it does take off? Any gains you've made could be lost. It's easy to get onboard.

    We'll see where this goes. If Microsoft announces nearly a million apps available in the Windows Store at launch or within weeks of launch, how would the perception change? Not saying that will happen, but I've heard a million by Christmas is a goal. iOS and Android are at 1.3. If MS can gain that much ground so quickly, how would the game change?
    04-30-2015 10:50 AM
  7. Legoboyii's Avatar
    I went through the comments about android/ios app compile to windows 10 articles on iMore and Android Central. The users for the most part were pretty enthusiastic and welcome the competition. Some devs even want to sign up to bring apps over already! That's a pretty good sign to say the least. Still I hold to my wait and see approach, 2-3 years to go. :)
    920Walker and wpn00b like this.
    04-30-2015 11:00 AM
  8. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    Also to further add. Android development costs much more than Windows. iOS costs more than either. I don't expect the iOS development will go away, but from a Dev perspective it would be much cheaper to develop for just iOS and Windows while ditching Android. That won't happen right now, but what if your presence on Windows helps spur movement away from Android? If it shows significant enough decline in marketshare, some Devs could decide to ditch it and focus on Windows and iOS. We're a long way from there, but the point of this thread is that Android users would be willing to switch if the apps were there - and many were impressed by Continuum as well.

    I am in the industry and have access to proprietary survey data that I guarantee you MS and Google get too. 40% of Android users express a willingness to switch. It is the largest number of any platform. Overall customer satisfaction numbers for Android hover at around 47%. Again, far lower than anyone else out there. Devs, retailers, OEMs, etc get this data. They know Android's hold is quite tenuous and only exists due to a competition vacuum. Frankly, MS should have made Windows Phone free to OEMs from the beginning because they may have been able to do more 4 years ago. That ship has sailed, though. Still, Android is vulnerable and porting your app is a piece of cake.

    Some things are unlikely to come any time soon, such as Google apps. Though I suspect if a billion users are there, Google will eventually have no choice. And once Google apps come to Windows Universal, Android could become dead in the water. Sounds absurd now. The problem is that the public don't love it and don't feel attached to it. Why? There's no common experience from device to device. They just have to choose between it and the iPhone.

    And that's where gains are made. Apple will be profitable for the foreseeable future and they will get a good percentage of users locked into iOS. iOS isn't really the competitor to target. It's strong and has a user base that is happy. You target the one where people are not as happy and more willing to move. That's Android. Close the app gap and Android is ripe for the picking. It'll begin more slowly before there's a build and a severe decline - but it all has to start with the apps. MS understands that and that's why they made it easy and cheap to bring over apps while making sure developers could make money.
    04-30-2015 11:05 AM
  9. JSWPL525's Avatar
    i must say microsoft hit the android central yesterday...all are talking about windows only...
    04-30-2015 11:12 AM
  10. jleebiker's Avatar
    Thanks for the insights MacPhisto. That's very interesting about the user surveys. Seems like this is a prime opportunity for MS to take some market share.

    From where I sit though, I think the transformation will start with the tablet sector. I get tons of requests for them all the time. I think more people would adopt Win10 with the Universal apps. That will ripple to their mobile devices eventually. I think the tablet form factor works for more people as a replacement to their desktop or even laptops.

    Whatever happens, it's going to be an interesting 10-12 months.

    Can the admins schedule a calendar event for 1 year from now to see how the landscape looks? Kind of like a virtual time capsule?
    neo158 and Witness like this.
    04-30-2015 11:20 AM
  11. Nogitsune Micah's Avatar
    I still think this is the stupidest thing ever. I hope to be proven wrong but I have a feeling this if anything, will not go quite as well and that's why I am not getting my hopes up.

    That's not an excuse.
    In our defence, Microsoft haven't been colossal d**ks towards Google, so they don't really have any reason too. On the other hand, Google haven't been very nice with us cough-cough-youtube-cough
    It may no excuse it but it certainly explains it :)
    04-30-2015 11:32 AM
  12. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    Thanks for the insights MacPhisto. That's very interesting about the user surveys. Seems like this is a prime opportunity for MS to take some market share.

    From where I sit though, I think the transformation will start with the tablet sector. I get tons of requests for them all the time. I think more people would adopt Win10 with the Universal apps. That will ripple to their mobile devices eventually. I think the tablet form factor works for more people as a replacement to their desktop or even laptops.

    Whatever happens, it's going to be an interesting 10-12 months.

    Can the admins schedule a calendar event for 1 year from now to see how the landscape looks? Kind of like a virtual time capsule?
    I agree. I think we see tablet and touchscreen movement first. Imagine that you have a Windows laptop and a tablet. You use App X on both and enjoy how it saves states and syncs between both so you can leave it at one place on your laptop and pick it up on your tablet. you have an Android phone with App X too, but it's not in the ecosystem and it's not a Universal App. You see how well the tablet and laptop work together, so next time you are looking into phones, you start looking at the ones with Windows. They have all the same apps you know on your tablet. In fact, it is very likely that Microsoft will allow you to tell the phone to get all your Universal Apps from the Store automatically. On top of that, your phone can act like a Desktop in a pinch now. I can even see people making laptop shells for the phones down the line with extra battery and possibly extra storage.

    Tablets for Windows also have the dockable aspect since they are Intel at their core. But even new ARM tablets should do Continuum, so not only can your phone be a desktop, you could just pop your tablet on a HDMI/USB dock and you now have your tablet becoming one.

    Microsoft has done an incredible job of creating an OS that scales to everything. I think this is a landmark in computing. Apple still is one a two OS model. Google is too and Chrome OS is iffy on desktop - as is Android. Microsoft isn't killing the PC, they are just allowing devices to seamlessly be mobile in those situations and then become more as needed. That's the power of the Windows core and that new universal driver model they build for Windows 8.

    None of this guarantees success, but they've got people talking and taking notice. I think they've gotten Devs to take notice too - and Enterprise. Your worker may no longer need a laptop if he's got a phone. Joe B.'s scenario of spaces in office that allow you to plug in the phone and go desktop probably have managers drooling.

    Works well for education too. Each kid can get a phone and plug it in at a desk to write, etc. iOS and Android educational apps can easily come over and be used in a Windowed environment (Joe also showed yesterday how well the new SDKs automatically make your touch app work with mouse and keyboard).

    This is really big vision stuff that goes all the way down to Raspberry Pi and other IOT devices and all the way up to holographic computing. Who else has one OS that can do all that and one app system that can go to all those places? No one.
    jleebiker, James8561 and falconrap like this.
    04-30-2015 11:36 AM
  13. KarmaEcrivain94's Avatar
    Are .apk Apps not rather easy to decompile? I have no knowledge in that area, but could it not be relatively easy to rip apart an .apk, make it pass through Visual studio, and even if you aren't the original dev, get a .appx?
    04-30-2015 11:39 AM
  14. Legoboyii's Avatar
    @MacPhisto
    The reason keyboard and mouse did well on a touch app, is likely because of Microsoft's Pointer Events API, probably is built in on the compiler sdks
    04-30-2015 12:08 PM
  15. michail71's Avatar
    One area to initially entice developers would be on the competitive landscape. Even if it's a smaller market share there the initial demand from that smaller market could be much higher. Big profits are often made by those who get there first as it's not a flooded marketplace.

    Also, if I were MS I'd be trying to send in free contractors to the banks and other key organizations to help with the conversion.

    Perhaps this is even a good business opportunity to offer conversion services.
    04-30-2015 12:14 PM
  16. jleebiker's Avatar
    HOLY CRAP!!!
    I work for a high tech company. The majority of users are always pushing the bleeding edge of everything. I just had a Sr. Mgr for one of the coding depts (who has a Mac and iPhone) just come talk to me about what the implications of Build are. He's heard about what MS is doing from his own circles and wanted my opinion.

    We kept it away from the handset discussion and kept it at the higher, bigger, long-term picture and he walked away saying "Well this is all very interesting. I may have some other questions. I'll be in touch."...
    04-30-2015 12:21 PM
  17. ohgood's Avatar
    It depends on the app. A banking app would have no use on the desktop, since the main purpose of banking apps on mobile devices involves taking pictures of checks to deposit them.

    Nobody would use an app for a store on a desktop, laptop or tablet. For example, the Starbucks app allows one to scan his/her Starbucks Card at the register to pay for coffee. Nobody will take a laptop or tablet to the register to scan.

    Other apps do have a purpose. The Netflix app for Windows 8.1 works great on desktop, since it is less of a resource hog than viewing Netflix in a PC browser.

    this was exactly my point when microsoft made the 'universal apps' announcement.



    at this point, the "but we can run androids' apps now!" i such a 'me too' statement it's just shameful. come on microsoft, INNOVATE !!!
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-30-2015 12:40 PM
  18. HoosierDaddy's Avatar
    Also, if I were MS I'd be trying to send in free contractors to the banks and other key organizations to help with the conversion.
    Until proven otherwise I suspect the removal of apps is because MS helped them or offered incentives in the past and as soon as the incentives stopped, so did the apps.

    Perhaps this is even a good business opportunity to offer conversion services.
    Yep.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    04-30-2015 12:45 PM
  19. xrs22's Avatar
    I must be one of the few that don't care about the app gap. I have a lot of apps cause they were free or featured free from $$$ but they just sit there till I uninstall them, like spring cleaning.
    04-30-2015 12:57 PM
  20. Owen Dugmore's Avatar
    It warms my heart to read the comments on the Android Central article. It really makes you realize (or for some people, remember) that they are, for the most part, people who have grown up on Windows PCs and only use Android because in the eyes of the general public, it's the only viable alternative to iOS. Many of the commenters talk about wanting to switch to WP or giving the platform a second chance. There are a few trolls on there too but their posts have all the downvotes

    Up until a few days ago, I was of the mindset (like many others) that Windows 10 should have been Windows 8. Now I realize that they have way more in mind than I could have hoped for. Windows 10 is going to be way more than Windows 8 ever could have, and maybe even should have, been. As a developer, the prospect of running a single code project on 5" phone screens, 17" desktop powerhouses, everything in between, and even devices with no screen is incredibly appealing. That being said, I think this situation could go either way. The Internet community tends to have a negative view of Microsoft, and some people won't even look up from their iPaperWeights to take notice. This is the part that scares me -- in the past, Microsoft has done a terrible job of advertising. The recent promotions are good, but we need to see them on TV and through other public advertising methods, not just YouTube. If they want to succeed, they need to promote the hell out of this, and I'd encourage everyone to send at least one message to someone at Microsoft, be it through Twitter, Facebook, Google-, whatever. Just let them know that it will take more than a great idea to have success -- people need to know about it too.
    04-30-2015 02:08 PM
  21. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    I think the questions remain whether or not apps that have no use on desktop will be available or not.

    Nobody will use banking apps on their desktops, so will the banks be interested or not?

    Games will probably be available, since those would be popular on desktops, tablets and phones.
    Didn't see this and I wanted to address it.

    Will banks want their apps on the Desktop? Yes. Absolutely. I've talked with some fairly upper management types at my bank, SunTrust. They do not have an app for Windows Phone or Windows at present but are working an a Universal App. The reasoning behind it is the sandbox environment that the app runs in. They believe your financial data and interactions with the bank can be more secure in a sandboxed environment than in a browser. This means there may be features added to the app that will allow it to do more on the desktop, specifically things that are important for businesses that are dealing with the banks on a variety of levels from multiple account management, credit card deposits, lines of credit, etc. The SunTrust people feel there is a greater potential for security and a greater ability to interact with customers inside an app than in a browser on the Desktop - and this will then also trickle down to smaller devices. The problem with Windows 8 was the lack of having apps run windowed. The people at the bank were also well aware that many of the other larger banks are working on the same thing they are because they actually have decent relationships with one another and have discussed interaction standards, etc. The banks see Windows 10 as a way to evolve banking on traditional PCs and beyond, but it was the desktop bit that got them excited because they can have a greater say in overall security from the system to the online interactions.
    04-30-2015 02:43 PM
  22. Mr. MacPhisto's Avatar
    HOLY CRAP!!!
    I work for a high tech company. The majority of users are always pushing the bleeding edge of everything. I just had a Sr. Mgr for one of the coding depts (who has a Mac and iPhone) just come talk to me about what the implications of Build are. He's heard about what MS is doing from his own circles and wanted my opinion.

    We kept it away from the handset discussion and kept it at the higher, bigger, long-term picture and he walked away saying "Well this is all very interesting. I may have some other questions. I'll be in touch."...
    Good to hear. I've been hearing a lot of buzz myself. I'm a manager of a business that serves other businesses. Most people I interact regularly know that I'm a techie and I've already been asked questions and picked up some excitement about what's come up with app conversion and a broad spectrum of devices. A couple of these guys are from major companies that have not supported Windows on desktop or phone outside of inside a browser. Just like where you are, they have heard some things and their interest is piqued. Microsoft has gotten the attention of a lot of people that might not usually look their way.
    jleebiker and rhapdog like this.
    04-30-2015 02:48 PM
  23. Owen Dugmore's Avatar
    The reasoning behind it is the sandbox environment that the app runs in. They believe your financial data and interactions with the bank can be more secure in a sandboxed environment than in a browser. This means there may be features added to the app that will allow it to do more on the desktop, specifically things that are important for businesses that are dealing with the banks on a variety of levels from multiple account management, credit card deposits, lines of credit, etc. The SunTrust people feel there is a greater potential for security and a greater ability to interact with customers inside an app than in a browser on the Desktop - and this will then also trickle down to smaller devices.
    That's fascinating, I hadn't thought of that. Now that I do, it makes so much sense. Apps in general are way more secure than traditional programs and websites. If I owned a huge chain of banks, I'd definitely prefer people to access their info through a sandboxed app than on a website through IE :)
    04-30-2015 02:56 PM
  24. JohnStrk's Avatar
    04-30-2015 07:25 PM
  25. mary beth hale's Avatar
    Very interesting. Thanks for the link
    JohnStrk likes this.
    04-30-2015 07:35 PM
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