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03-14-2012 02:16 PM
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  1. Mars2003's Avatar
    I think it's fair to expect support for devices based on the original release date of their chipset for at least 2 years. As a measure I guess that's too complicated for your average Joe to understand.

    I'd find it fair enough if my Scorpion based Omnia 7 failed to get the next OS, but if the far more capable Gen 2 devices were not supported it'd be bad for the platform. Titan 2 and Lumia 900 aren't even available yet.
    03-04-2012 03:15 PM
  2. blehblehbleh's Avatar
    Man, this whole article sounds like some bad journalists taking things out of proportion. Myerson definitely was dancing around the question, but to me it sounds more like he might've been on tight orders not to say anything about Windows Phone 8. Or perhaps there are talks between MS and the carriers as we speak on how things are going to get done. Given the update control the carriers have anyways that could be a concern about pushing out WP8. If anyone would want to force a hardware update it'd be the damn carriers.

    If that's true, at it seems to arguably to be the case given the focus at MWC was the lower end Nokia's and Tango, then what more can he do than either dance around or just say, "sorry i'm not aloud to speak of that." Some times people can be just bad public speakers.

    full transcript

    03-04-2012 03:24 PM
  3. bilzkh's Avatar
    Man, this whole article sounds like some bad journalists taking things out of proportion. Myerson definitely was dancing around the question, but to me it sounds more like he might've been on tight orders not to say anything about Windows Phone 8. Or perhaps there are talks between MS and the carriers as we speak on how things are going to get done. Given the update control the carriers have anyways that could be a concern about pushing out WP8. If anyone would want to force a hardware update it'd be the damn carriers.

    If that's true, at it seems to arguably to be the case given the focus at MWC was the lower end Nokia's and Tango, then what more can he do than either dance around or just say, "sorry i'm not aloud to speak of that." Some times people can be just bad public speakers.

    full transcript

    I have a feeling that current WP devices will get a variation of Apollo that could include a new browser, better optimization of OS to hardware, better native integration with SkyDrive, etc. Basically a similar track to Mango and Tango, but users of old devices will feel a little constrained compared to 3rd gen handset users who might have NFC, higher res screens, etc. The incentive to get new hardware will be there, but from what I got off the interview it seems Microsoft still wants to ensure that current hardware isn't rendered as inoperable as say an iPhone 3G on iOS4 or 5.
    kenzibit likes this.
    03-04-2012 04:52 PM
  4. djripster's Avatar
    This is unacceptable One thing we have grown used with Microsoft in Windows is the ability to run the OS on older hardware.

    The other thing is that Windows Phones are still relatively new and people have invested on the platform despite this... It would be greatly unfair if Microsoft decides that users will have to invest yet again in less than a year of purchasing a new device. That would make them worse than Apple, and definitely worse than Android...

    iPhone 3GS users are still able to get a good user experience with iOS 5, carriers expect 2 year contracts to be signed with ideally gives a phone a two year lifespan... Even the suggestion that users have to upgrade their handset less than a year after purchasing it, is not at the least acceptable...

    I hope Microsoft understands that user have taken a gamble supporting the Windows Phone platform, and that if they fail to look out for these users, they will continue to loose market share to the folks at Apple and Android.
    03-04-2012 04:57 PM
  5. power5's Avatar
    If carriers keep subsidising for 2 year spans, then the manufacturer should keep the phones on the most up to date OS from 2 years of handset launch. I would be very shocked if MS did not keep supporting their phones since they continue to keep supporting very old desktop operating systems.
    03-04-2012 06:19 PM
  6. ubizmo's Avatar
    Support doesn't entail upgrading the OS. MS sends out patches to old versions of Windows, but they don't claim that Windows 7 will run well on any machine that ran XP.

    We all want more features of various sorts in WP8. At some point these features, if implemented, need better hardware.
    03-04-2012 06:27 PM
  7. Exomondo's Avatar
    people tend to forget one thing......ITS A PHONE!
    That hasn't been true for years now, it's a device that has phone functionality that has evolved from being a 'just a phone' to being much more than that, in fact most people spend a h3ll of a lot less time making phone calls on these devices than they spend on all of the other functionality.
    For comparison it's been a very long time since Windows has been 'just a window manager', sure it's still called Windows and it still does window management, but its primary purpose has shifted and its features extend well beyond what it once was.
    03-04-2012 07:24 PM
  8. ubizmo's Avatar
    That hasn't been true for years now, it's a device that has phone functionality that has evolved from being a 'just a phone' to being much more than that, in fact most people spend a h3ll of a lot less time making phone calls on these devices than they spend on all of the other functionality.

    That's the truth. I'd estimate that less than 10% of my "phone" is spent on calls.

    Increasingly, these are devices for "on-demand" functionality: on-demand info, tickets, messages, music, video, books, and more.

    We don't even know what people will expect/demand of these gadgets in 3 years. Leadership means anticipating those demands. It's risky. What's the bigger risk: alienating WP7.5 people by having WP8 too big to run on their phones or leaving features out of WP8 to keep it compatible?
    03-04-2012 08:40 PM
  9. Winterfang's Avatar
    I'll wait for official news.
    03-04-2012 09:08 PM
  10. hwalker84's Avatar
    I don't think we have to worry about WP7 to WP8 upgrades from Microsoft. I think you need to look at the OEM and Carrier. I fully expect people to get screwed from one or the other or both.
    03-04-2012 09:21 PM
  11. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    Support doesn't entail upgrading the OS. MS sends out patches to old versions of Windows, but they don't claim that Windows 7 will run well on any machine that ran XP.
    The difference is...
    A) Desktop OSes are updated only once every 3+ years and NOT once per year
    B) Both Apple and Google have established models of complimentary OS updates

    Using Windows OS as an example is using an archaic model to pigeonhole a point for a modern business model.
    03-04-2012 10:01 PM
  12. Pronk's Avatar
    All we can say with any certainty is this:

    1. Best case scenario: everything can be upgraded
    2. Pretty good scenario: everything bar Tango models can be upgraded (though support might end with this upgrade for older models). Tango models will get their own upgrade path
    3. Acceptable but not wonderful scenario: some models, a mix of older and newer depending on spec, will get the upgrade. The market will unavoidably fractionate a bit as a result and some buyers of new(er) handsets that don't make the grade will understandably be anoyed
    4. Worst case scenario: Microsoft have pulled a bait and switch. No current models will upgrade to Apollo.

    Personally, my money is on 3. 1 is unlikely because if Tango devices could run it, they'd know that already and say "Hey, everyone can run Windows 8!". That'd be a selling point. The fact they haven't pretty much says they know Tango devices won't have the horsepower but they don't want to kill sales.

    I don't think 2 can be true because some gen 1 devices are very close to the new Tango models in spec. Too close to say one can, and one can't. That leaves 3 as the only option - I can see devices like the Radar, with a slower processor, being left behind with some of the lower spec gen 1 devices.

    If it turns out the vague language and lack of a specific statement is because 4 is true, then I think I'll not be the only one selling up and going elsewhere. But 4 really would be a bizarre, if not suicidal, business choice. I just can't see it happening.
    03-05-2012 03:18 AM
  13. Big Supes's Avatar
    I'm sticking to current devices (bar Tango) upgrading to wp8, but going with those who have added that some features could be missing.
    03-05-2012 05:53 AM
  14. snowmutt's Avatar
    I will still happily put myself in the category of all Gen 2 WP will get Apollo, and I ain't worried about it. I am worried for Gen 1 WP's, as it was a very small number that actually sold, and Microsoft is probably hoping to get Apollo devices on all carriers, and they are hoping all those device owners will upgrade anyway. But, I still am at ease with it. For those saying it is right around the corner, it really isn't in the world of sales. Q4 is an entire life cycle of selling seasons away. MS has plenty of time to hash this out. Lets not loose sight of the fact that Apollo is their main hope. HTC, Nokia, Samsung are all going to wait on it to release new phones. Getting it right going forward is way more important to them than getting it right going backwards.
    03-05-2012 09:45 AM
  15. bananapeal's Avatar

    Apple or Google don't go around commiting devices to the next update. So why should Microsoft and why do people keep pestering them. They will know when the product is done. They can't possibly know until they have tested Apollo on devices and then decided to do no update, partial update, or full update etc...
    I would like to pester them because in my opinion windows phone 7.5 is a BETA version.
    It's not obvious until you try to use it in real life. There are bugs in MS Answers that have yet to be resolved a year an a half later... I want windows 8 to hope for a phone that works as advertized, otherwise my focus flash is going right back to the store this week!
    Speebs likes this.
    03-05-2012 11:23 AM
  16. dkp23's Avatar
    I am on the bandwagon that all current wp7 will NOT upgrade to apollo. I know nothing about how OS's work, i know nothing about this kernal that kernal, i only eat popcorn kernels at the bottom of the bag.

    I am basing on simply what i have been reading when MS people are asked if the wp7 devices will be upgradable. I believe it should be an easy yes or no, the fact that they keep answering the question with "our goal is to have all wp7 apps compatible with wp8 and it will be" shows they are sidestepping the question and answering a whole entirely different question.

    So put me down as a no-go for Apollo, at this point, those that thing it will be upgradable is only based on wishful thinking. This is only my opinion :)
    03-06-2012 04:48 PM
  17. power5's Avatar
    How is it just wishful thinking to believe that a 1 year old device will not get updated? Even apple would not think of doing that to customers. iPhone 4 OS was put onto 3g and 3gs devices. iPhone 4S OS was put onto ip4 and even ip3gs devices and that is an OS that was created with a dual core platform as its basis. I see absolutely no problem thinking wp8 will come to at least 7.5 devices.
    03-06-2012 05:55 PM
  18. mtbinary's Avatar
    If WP7 phones don't get WP8 then I'm blaming the carriers. They want people buying new subsidized phones and being locked in 2 year contracts. They're best interest is no feature updates for any phones.

    Now on the PC world, I bought a laptop with Vista 5 years ago. I was able to upgrade to Windows 7 and now Windows 8. Sure I had to pay for the upgrade, but I'm sure others would pay for major phone releases.
    Ha! Lucky you. I just finished a hateful experience with a 4 year old Dell Laptop that came equipped with Vista. I had an extra copy of Win7 and tried to upgrade. Imagine my complete surprise when I discovered that I couldn't run a fricken printer driver for an HP 8500!! It wasn't the only driver that wouldn't work on that miserable machine...

    I'm currently using a 2 y/o Droid X and giving serious consideration to the WP. Sounds like I should tough it out just a bit longer? My droid has gone through 2 nominal upgrades and don't expect it to see any significant changes. After my recent 'upgrade,' experience with a Vista machine, I take no upgrade path for granted...
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    03-06-2012 06:41 PM
  19. mtbinary's Avatar
    If WP7 phones don't get WP8 then I'm blaming the carriers. They want people buying new subsidized phones and being locked in 2 year contracts. They're best interest is no feature updates for any phones.

    Now on the PC world, I bought a laptop with Vista 5 years ago. I was able to upgrade to Windows 7 and now Windows 8. Sure I had to pay for the upgrade, but I'm sure others would pay for major phone releases.
    How is it just wishful thinking to believe that a 1 year old device will not get updated? Even apple would not think of doing that to customers. iPhone 4 OS was put onto 3g and 3gs devices. iPhone 4S OS was put onto ip4 and even ip3gs devices and that is an OS that was created with a dual core platform as its basis. I see absolutely no problem thinking wp8 will come to at least 7.5 devices.
    Hate to sound sound so negative, but I think it is fair to say that IOS was a much more mature platform as compared to WP7 at this point?
    03-06-2012 06:43 PM
  20. dkp23's Avatar
    I believe they are configuring the UI with a whole need look to match that of windows 8. i am guessing MS has accepted that wp7 is not going to be a game changer, but can gather some market share while still around. The Lumia 900 is not a hero phone and i am thinking they are believing wp8 will be the hero phone. Right now, get what you market share you can and take the hits and come out strong with the next iteration.

    iPhones looked relatively the same and they just added features, i think the wp8 is coming out with a whole new look to coincide with the wp8 and that would make it difficult to have wp8 os upgraded on current phones due to potential hardware limitations.

    I see it as similar to what MS did with the xbox, they killed that off when the 360 came out, outright just stopped supporting it. While sony continued to support the ps2 when the ps3 came out. I can see a similar scenario playing out.

    When it comes to corporate thinking and all the $$ invested, logic goes out the door and the imagination of some highly educated corporate exec takes over and a lot of times, their plan doesn't end well.
    03-06-2012 07:23 PM
  21. coffeemike's Avatar
    So, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't MS held device manufacturers to a common platform (at least for the relevant bits) in each of the two generations of WP phones we've seen? That was my understanding - we aren't in a world where device manufacturers are really competing on hardware, save some differences in form factor (e.g. screen size) and cameras and other extras.

    So, you've got:
    * Gen 1 phones (that I can't name)
    * Gen 2 phones (like my Focus S, or the Lumia 900, or HTC Titan)
    * "Gen 2.5" phones (ones designed specifically for Tango)
    * Gen 3 phones (post-Apollo)

    Each of those bands are, to my understanding, fairly comparable in terms of processor, memory, storage, et cetera, right? Or is there more variation than I'm aware of?
    03-06-2012 08:55 PM
  22. bananapeal's Avatar
    So, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't MS held device manufacturers to a common platform (at least for the relevant bits) in each of the two generations of WP phones we've seen? That was my understanding - we aren't in a world where device manufacturers are really competing on hardware, save some differences in form factor (e.g. screen size) and cameras and other extras.

    So, you've got:
    * Gen 1 phones (that I can't name)
    * Gen 2 phones (like my Focus S, or the Lumia 900, or HTC Titan)
    * "Gen 2.5" phones (ones designed specifically for Tango)
    * Gen 3 phones (post-Apollo)

    Each of those bands are, to my understanding, fairly comparable in terms of processor, memory, storage, et cetera, right? Or is there more variation than I'm aware of?
    coffeemike it seems to me that some gen 1 phones were equipped with 1ghz snapdragons not 1.4ghz like in gen2
    03-06-2012 09:21 PM
  23. fogel35's Avatar
    How is it just wishful thinking to believe that a 1 year old device will not get updated? Even apple would not think of doing that to customers. iPhone 4 OS was put onto 3g and 3gs devices. iPhone 4S OS was put onto ip4 and even ip3gs devices and that is an OS that was created with a dual core platform as its basis. I see absolutely no problem thinking wp8 will come to at least 7.5 devices.
    Your are talking about 2 distinctly different corporate cultures when discussing Microsoft and Apple.

    Apple discussing nothing and leaks close to nothing ( unless they know it will benefit them ). Microsoft is the leaky ship but wants to be like Apple and not discuss anything.

    I am sure the head of the Windows Phone division is ready to kill someone about the Windows 8 leak and even the road map leak. But the problem is the genie is out of the bottle and the only way to put it back in is by being forthright and honest. If they did that it would make me purchasing a Nokia Lumia 900 a slam dunk but instead I have to lament about maybe choosing the HTC One X because I don't want to tied down to a dead end OS. Then again I could always pass that dead ender to my wife come October but that is a decision I can make later.

    Ironically haven't Microsoft Surrogates been constantly bashing Android about fragmentation yet they may potentially orphan 7.5 devices like they did with their 6.5 devices. Makes no sense but that is Microsoft for ya.
    03-06-2012 10:44 PM
  24. ljkelley's Avatar
    I would like to pester them because in my opinion windows phone 7.5 is a BETA version.
    It's not obvious until you try to use it in real life. There are bugs in MS Answers that have yet to be resolved a year an a half later... I want windows 8 to hope for a phone that works as advertized, otherwise my focus flash is going right back to the store this week!
    Well then take your phone back as you are not getting an answer this week. And iOS and Android have their share of bugs as well. Probably alot of the 'bugs' on MS Answers are feature requests/missing features. WP has been my most stable OS I have used ever. And I have used Symbian, iOS, Android, and WebOS.

    And 8107 fixed quite a few bugs if AT&T would just send it out... no comment. Beyond that WP is not a beta product, it can stand up to the best and beat them at their game (hence the #smokedbywindowsphone).
    03-07-2012 05:54 AM
  25. aubreyq's Avatar
    If I were to bet on it I'd say 1st gen devices (Focus, Arrive, Quantum, Surround, etc) won't get WP8, but the Lumias, Focus S, Focus Flash, Titan, Titan II and Radar will.

    Time will tell.
    03-07-2012 07:23 AM
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