1030: a niche 1020 successor, or a true flagship phone... which do we want more?

[Ed Boland]

I understand that these leaked "1030" pics are still in "rumor status". Perhaps the pics are real, but maybe they're only pics of a prototype phone that has long been cancelled (McLaren), or they could even be pics of older prototypes of the original 1020 with a fresh photoshopped "Microsoft Mobile" logo on them to stir up the rumor mill.

Either way, they have our attention. I'm still wondering though, what do we really need or want? A true 1020 successor, with the updated Pureview camera (50MP?), that'll only sell to the photography enthusiasts... Or a real "flagship" or "hero" phone (940?), with all the bells and whistles, with a slightly less powerful, but good enough camera (20MP?), with the latest SnapDragon processor, 3GB ram or more, Glance screen, etc.

Knowing Microsoft, they won't give us both in one phone, If it's a 1020 successor, it'll be missing things like the SD card slot... and on the other hand, if it's a 940, it likely won't have the monster camera.

So which do we really want (or need) more? What would you like to see next year with the launch of Windows 10 in their new phone?

Thoughts?

 

[WanderingTraveler]

I want both to happen. Why? The 10xx line is most likely the show of power for Microsoft Mobile's imaging unit - and the standard to strive for in mobile photography, but not all want a huge, bulky camera in their phone.

That's where the 9xx line comes in. Because it tones down the camera to a level I like, and the wireless charging actually makes sense, hehe.

 

[nallWhite]

I would hope for both in a phones. With SD slot and battery access. This would fly out of the door.

 

[AV2RY]

I read somewhere that the device on leaked pictures is cancelled McLaren. And it wont come out.. because it's cancelled. Also "it had "about 20mp" not 50" (someone from MS)

Can't find link to share

Upd. Not the same website but you can read here
http://geekongadgets.com/2014/12/05/tom-warren-no-lumia-1030-leaked-device-cancelled-mclaren/

 

[Ed Boland]

I just wish they'd roll it all into one phone that has it all. And call it... the Microsoft Lumia.

 

[Guytronic]

Well the 1020 is\was the phone that I always wanted after making the jump to a smartphone.
I still long for one and had been shopping them on E-Bay even last week.

Perhaps the Nokia Lumia 1020 may be a tough act to follow due it's reputation.
I think it is a flagship and the 1030 might be just a disappointing copy of the ultimate camera phone.

I am really hoping any successor to the 1020 will be stellar and not a rushed flagship.

Of course this is coming from someone on the outside.
Maybe someday a 1020 will come my way

 

[jjmorgan64]

Personally I think a 1030 is a necessity, low end drives sales but hero phones drive minds.

 

[Scienceguy Labs]

Personally I think a 1030 is a necessity, low end drives sales but hero phones drive minds.

Totally agree 100%. It's the flashy phones that make people look at the brand, but the more affordable phones that make most people buy....in the world outside of the Appleverse, at least.

 

[Ed Boland]

Well the 1020 is\was the phone that I always wanted after making the jump to a smartphone.
I still long for one and had been shopping them on E-Bay even last week.

Perhaps the Nokia Lumia 1020 may be a tough act to follow due it's reputation.
I think it is a flagship and the 1030 might be just a disappointing copy of the ultimate camera phone.

I am really hoping any successor to the 1020 will be stellar and not a rushed flagship.

Of course this is coming from someone on the outside.
Maybe someday a 1020 will come my way

I had two of them.. (dropped my first one and broke the screen) then, believe it or not, I dropped the second one only three weeks later! lol Oh man, I was having a baaad month! Anyway, the second replacement they sent me was the 1520 I have now. And I can honestly say, I really haven't missed anything other than the Xenon flash. The camera on the 1520 is really quite good.. right up there with the 1020 IMHO. RAW capability and all.. of course under a microscope, the 1020 is the best camera, but the photos everyone shares online all boil down to the 5MP oversampled image in the end anyway. The real benefit I believe is when you want to make prints.

With that said though, if a real 1020 successor comes along, I still want it.. even if it is just for bragging rights.

 

[Guytronic]

If the 1030 shows I'm betting AT&T grabs it.
Loyal 1020\920 folks waiting to move up just might line up to get one (talking to you Laura...lol).

Be sweet to see lines of people on the news waiting for the long awaited MM Lumia flagship model.

 

[RumoredNow]

I say an improved 1020 is a flagship. Let's look at the tale of the tape and nudge into future spec. Nokia Lumia 1020 - Full phone specifications

Radios: Make it a true world traveler, because you never know where the search for that next pic will take you. :wink:

• GSM 850/900/1800/1900
• HSDPA 850/900/1700/1900/2100
• LTE 700/850/1700/1900/2100/2600 Bands 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 17 and 700/1800/2300/2500/2600 Bands 3, 28, 38, 40, 41

IPS LCD with ClearBlack and PureMotion HD: 5.5", 1080 x 1920 pixels @ 401 ppi, Gorilla Glass 3

​Dual Speakers w/ Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Headphones, Stereo Sound Recording

32GB Internal Storage, microSD Card up to 128GB, 3GB RAM

• WiFi 802.11 a/b/g/n/ac
• BlueTooth v4.1 LE
• NFC
• microUSB v3.0 w/ OTG

​Qualcomm Snapdragon 805 CPU and Adreno 420 GPU: quad core krait underclocked to 2.5 GHz per core, Quick Charge enabled

2800 mAH Battery

Camera:

• 52MP (48MP effective), Zeiss Optics, Optical Image Stabilization, auto and manual focus, Xenon and LED flash
• 1/1.3" sensor size, 1.12 um pixel size, Pureview, dual capture, Geotagging, face detection, panorama
• 4K video @ 30 fps, 1080p @ 60fps, OIS, 4x lossless digital zoom
• 5MP ffc, 1080p video @ 30fps

Now if I can only get NASA to build it. And get a second job to afford it off-contract. But it would be a flagship, would it not?

 

[RumoredNow]

If the 1030 shows I'm betting AT&T grabs it.
Loyal 1020\920 folks waiting to move up just might line up to get one (talking to you Laura...lol).

Be sweet to see lines of people on the news waiting for the long awaited MM Lumia flagship model.

​No carrier exclusives. That's a dream killer that is.

 

[Ed Boland]

But it would be a flagship, would it not?

Yes it would! *wipes drool from chin* Sign me up and take my money!

 

[anon(5326758)]

I love the 1020. Keep it roughly the same size with the biggest screen that'd fit (a 5" 16x9 screen seems possible), Qi charging, and the fastest processor you can get. Expanded storage would be a nice-to-have but not essential. Don't change it, just get me a faster proc and storage to keep up with those big pics.

 

[Beijendorf]

There are a few things we need to clear up before we can discuss this.

A good camera is not just for photography enthusiasts.
Everyone wants the camera they carry around to be as good as it could possibly be. Especially now that more people than ever are abandoning their dedicated cameras for their smartphones. What many don't want however is bulky, uncomfortable or ugly devices. That includes photography enthusiasts who will just bring their far superior dedicated cameras if they want to carry around bulky gear. It's fully possible to make smartphone cameras thin and still give them excellent performance, for example via array camera setups.

So what should a good smartphone camera be? It's individual, but arguably it should be quick, consistent and handle a wide variety of scenarios. The Lumia 1020 is excellent (for a smartphone) in lower-light scenarios, but is neither quick nor consistent and so doesn't quite live up to its "champion title". I get the feeling the idea of a 50 megapixel sensor is appealing only to anyone who isn't a photography enthusiast and therefore doesn't know what makes a good camera. Which brings me to my second point...

It's not about the megapixels.
We hear the megapixel argument way too often. As soon as there was a rumour the McLaren would have 20 MP on its sensor, people started complaining that it wasn't a true 1020 successor. They complained on a number which means nothing without information about the underlying technology, lenses, sensor size, pixel size, processing algorithms and actual real-world performance.

I'll wager most people snapping images with their 1020 merely use the 5 MP oversampled image. The oversampling is nothing more than an image improvement method which can be achieved through other means. What matters is how well the camera performs in its fields - something not dictated by the megapixels. I believe Apple has shown this rather clearly, opting for an 8 MP sensor ever since the iPhone 4S and still outperforming the far higher-megapixel competition.

Let's just stop falling for marketing buzzwords and strange ideas that only a select few want a good camera in their smartphone. The thing is that if anyone wanted a one-trick pony, they'd opt for a dedicated camera instead of a sub-par 1000€ smartphone.

 

[msirapian]

Reacting to your last point: yes and no. Yes, most people use the 5MP Pureview capture, but since Black, we have RAW. And from that point of view, 41MP > 20 MP. I sometimes reframe a RAW, then apply my own "pureview" recipe. Having such a resolution is a luxury.

But even for a 5MP Pureview end result, the 41MP oversampling is probably better than the 20MP. It's all about denoising, having RGB information for each "meta pixel", etc.

This being said, that 50MP rumour is quite stupid. 41MP is enough. A 1030 with less than 41MP would necessarily be perceived as regression; more than 41MP is not necessarily needed.

 

[Ed Boland]

I agree with both of you. That's why I say the 1020 successor needs to have "at least the 41MP sensor" to be a "real successor". But I also feel the 1520's (and the 930/Icon though I haven't tried those) camera is right up there with the 1020. It uses the same Pureview technology and processing algorithms that the 1020 does, producing outstanding results for a smartphone camera.

 

[Zulfigar]

So lets debate, what should the specs of the 1030 and 940 consist of? Remember, you're limited to about $600-700 for both phones, so the 940 has to have better internal specs, while the 1030 has the better camera.

Go!

 

[Beijendorf]

While I understand what you're saying, I think a few points are being missed.

Simply having a RAW image format doesn't mean more megapixels are better. RAW makes it possible to turn much of the image processing over to more capable softwares and systems. But that RAW data still relies on how good the hardware is at capturing information. A RAW image format can never compensate for faults in hardware, just a bad on-board image processing.

As for reframing images, 20 MP is more than enough to work with. If one needs more megapixels to work with, the issue is probably more with the user not knowing how to get the right shot from the start rather than the camera not having enough room for user error.

Given the same sensor pixel size, I'm not disputing the possibility of 38 MP likely being better than 19 MP. If you change the recipe however, giving one 1" sensor 38 MP and one 1" sensor 19 MP, the luminance noise may very well be reduced on the 19 MP sensor since it has much larger pixels. And if you switch completely, from a standard 38 MP PureView sensor to a completely different technology altogether (QuantumFilm, computational cameras, etc) you may find oversampling as an image-improvement method to be unnecessary due to a very low noise and high pixel accuracy in the new technology. As such, a 12 MP camera may very well blow a 41 MP PureView camera completely out of the water.

My point here is that we shouldn't fall into the whole "It needs 41 megapixels or more to be an imaging flagship". The pixels don't matter, it's the end-results that matter. I'd personally rather have an 8 MP camera that can perform like a proper DSLR than a slightly thinner Lumia 1020.

As you say though, a lot of people are likely to consider anything less than a 41 MP sensor a regression, regardless of how well it performs. I just think it's a shame that actual progress could be at risk just because some loud-mouths consider marketing-speak to be more important than actual progress.

 

[TechFreak1]

Both, also I hope the 1020 successor has a dedicated image chip on board (similar to or better than the 808's broadcom chip) along with a ND filter.