1030: a niche 1020 successor, or a true flagship phone... which do we want more?

[realwarder]

Probably what microsoft needs to do is find a way to allow WP to run Android apps as though they were native.. would solve the app problem in one fell swoop, and can then focus on perceived benefits of UI, camera tech, battery life etc. Don't know how feasible this is though?
.

No. Would kill entire Windows platform, not just phone.

 

[camstreet1]

No. Would kill entire Windows platform, not just phone.

​Why?

 

[secher]

Because if developers can just make Android apps, they will have no interest in making WinRT apps. They can cover the same number of users by making one app instead of two...
WinRT will die - and WinRT universal apps the big bet for Windows 10... If they don't get developers on board, seriously on board, they will die...

 

[Beijendorf]

On the camera MP side, 50+ MP would be an important improvement. I think people are missing the point when they talk about the oversampled 5MP photos you can share online. The real benefit in my mind (for the casual user) is the lossless post-hoc digital zoom. It's currently 4x, but I think this could be a real selling point if improved to 8x, 10x, 20x etc over time.

It's important to remember that there is no such thing as "lossless digital zoom". It's a marketing gimmick. When you crop an image from a Lumia 1020 you lose quality. You get less pixels to work with, motion blur is far more noticeable and noise can't be minimised by sampling from adjacent pixels. What casual users likely need is the ability to get great images in all conditions, something not dictated by megapixels. Add too high of a resolution and all you get is a slow camera with zero extra benefits.

On a separate note, I don't understand why this lossless zoom tech hasn't yet been incorporated into compact digital cameras - if you coupled it with eg 20x optical zoom, results could be incredible.

Because "digital zoom" isn't actually zoom. Essentially every digital camera ever made can do "digital zoom", which is actually simply cropping an already captured image. Optical zoom is the only genuine zoom feature, where you actually magnify the image you want to capture on the sensor.

 

[camstreet1]

It's important to remember that there is no such thing as "lossless digital zoom". It's a marketing gimmick. ... Optical zoom is the only genuine zoom feature, where you actually magnify the image you want to capture on the sensor.

I think you're totally wrong about this. Read this article What is lossless zoom and how does it work in the Lumia 1020 and Xperia Z1? and come back with any comments. Lossless zoom is a real thing (as far as I can tell), and not the same as the old 'crop a photo and make pixels larger' technique. There will be a little bit of increased noise due to the absence of oversampling, but that's it.

So my previous comments stand (unless someone can demonstrate this is pure gimmick).

 

[camstreet1]

Hopefully MS don't share that point of view. They're going to need people to buy a windows tablet/laptop instead of a chrome/android/ios one, and if they once again lag behind in perception of available apps and feature parity, they're going to struggle as they have w/ windows phone. Setting up a new walled garden doesn't work if you're already well behind your competitors, in my view.

 

[Beijendorf]

I think you're totally wrong about this. Read this article What is lossless zoom and how does it work in the Lumia 1020 and Xperia Z1? and come back with any comments. Lossless zoom is a real thing (as far as I can tell), and not the same as the old 'crop a photo and make pixels larger' technique. There will be a little bit of increased noise due to the absence of oversampling, but that's it.

So my previous comments stand (unless someone can demonstrate this is pure gimmick).

The article you linked on PhoneArena is based on the Nokia Lumia 1020 whitepaper. That very whitepaper won't call it "lossless zoom" (in fact Nokia never seem to have if you search the web, they call it "re-invented zoom"). What they do say in the whitepaper is that you can digitally crop the image and still end up with a 5 MP image output.

No surprise there since you have 38 MP to work with.

And that's where Nokia's "re-invented zoom", better known as "oversampling" kicks in - an enhanced way of generating and cropping an image.
Cropping part of the image and letting the algorithms oversample the remaining pixels is likely give you a higher quality output than cropping the same area without oversampling [citation needed]. The more you crop, the less sensor area and fewer sensor pixels are offered to the algorithms to generate the resulting 5 MP image. It's a improved way of cropping an image, sure, but not a lossless zoom. At maximum crop you essentially end up with the capture of a 1/12" sensor with a 1.12 ?m pixel size - arguably worse than the first ever iPhone.

 

[camstreet1]

And that's where Nokia's "re-invented zoom", better known as "oversampling" kicks in - an enhanced way of generating and cropping an image.

I don't think you've quite understood 'lossless' zoom, and have got how it works the opposite way round. The oversampling occurs more with the normal unzoomed 5 MP image than it does with the zoomed image. Here's how it works without zoom:
- Camera takes a 38 MP image, and then uses algorithms to make an oversampled 5 MP image in which several pixels from the original 38 MP image are combined to make a high quality 'superpixel'. The end results is a 5MP image created from the original 38 MP version with far more detail and precision than you'd get if you used a 5 MP sensor.

Now onto the zoom. Normal digital zoom works by interpolation, i.e. you start with a 5 MP image, digitally increase it to 15 MP (I've heard this called oversampling too, confusingly), then you take a 5 MP rectangle, move it to where you want to zoom to, and crop around that rectangle, making a 3x digitally zoomed image.

However, the 1020's 'lossless' zoom starts from the 38 MP original, and lets you take a 5 MP rectangle and move it anywhere on that massive 38 MP image, and when you crop it you get the maximum possible lossless zoom at that resolution. It's 'lossless', because no interpolation or oversampling is needed to generate additional pixels.

Perhaps that's what you meant as well, but it wasn't clear. Either way, the 1020's digital zoom tech will give results similar to an optical zoom coupled to a smaller resolution sensor.

Why am I going on about this? Comes back to my original point. Increasing the sensor resolution on the 1020 successor will mean that images can be zoomed even further and at higher quality. That's a feature I want to see, and so I disagree with people who say increasing above 41 MP won't deliver any benefit. It may not improve the unzoomed 5 MP pictures much, but it will mean pictures can be zoomed in even further without having to rely on pixel interpolation - which is what people mean when they say 'lossless digital zoom'. If this can be coupled with optical zoom, so much the better.

 

[clitrenta]

I SO do want to buy a successor to the 1020 or 1520 but am stopped by app availability. I'm not app crazed like a lot of people (like iPhone fans) but I do need what I need. That said, I am totally be willing to go back to Windows Phone if the next high end phone out makes me sit up and take notice. Now that we have the MS Band watch, I'm ready to go back. I have always preferred the Windows OS but could get more function with my Note Edge (great phone). Still, I miss my Lumia and I will always believe the Lumias have the best cameras on a phone - period. The live tiles are great and the OS is very smooth. I don't think we need zillions of apps but if MS ever shored that part up, I think they'd see a huge upturn in business. As it is, all I ever see is "get the iPhone or Android app here". So sick of that even if I do have and Android. :eck:

 

[Beijendorf]

I know how classical digital 'zoom' works as well as how Nokia approached digital 'zoom'. Nokia's approach to it was merely an enhanced way of doing it. It's still lossy and is called "re-invented zoom" rather than "lossless zoom".

Why am I going on about this? Comes back to my original point. Increasing the sensor resolution on the 1020 successor will mean that images can be zoomed even further and at higher quality. That's a feature I want to see, and so I disagree with people who say increasing above 41 MP won't deliver any benefit. It may not improve the unzoomed 5 MP pictures much, but it will mean pictures can be zoomed in even further without having to rely on pixel interpolation - which is what people mean when they say 'lossless digital zoom'. If this can be coupled with optical zoom, so much the better.

Here's where we are in complete disagreement.

Sensor area utilised at full zoom
Nokia Lumia 1020: ~1/12" (1/1.5" unzoomed)
Apple iPhone 3G: 1/4"

While the Lumia 1020 sensor size is the third biggest one in a camera phone, it's still small compared to dedicated cameras. Digitally zooming, meaning you essentially only use a small part of that already small sensor will also result in comparably sub-par images. You need a large sensor in order to properly capture light.

If there's something the future camera flagship needs it's a larger sensor, not more megapixels.

Sensor pixel size at full zoom
Nokia Lumia 1020: 1.12 ?m (7.84 ?m unzoomed (7 pixels oversampled into one))
Sony Cybershot DSC-RX100 III: 5.8 ?m

The larger the pixels, the higher quality images you can generally expect. If you use the sensor as Nokia intended, by oversampling from adjacent pixels, you can absolutely get a quality output since the "superpixel" is large and can filter out noise. The stand-alone 1.12 ?m pixel size is smaller than what comes in the worst modern dedicated digital cameras though. Increasing the resolution further would more than likely mean you're just making the individual sensor pixels even smaller. You may be able to "zoom in" further without having to utilise interpolation, but the resulting quality would without a doubt be atrocious. It'll also take longer to process the images and they'll take up more space.

From my point of quality over quantity, it would make a lot more sense to increase the sensor size and pixel size to give you a 1" sensor with 20 MP resolution. Couple it with a 2X optical zoom and you'll get a fast, high-quality camera with improved low-light operation and fantastic zooming capabilities.

If you want to process the image further, do so at home. A computer with good image processing software can generate a better "digitally zoomed" image from the RAW than your smartphone can anyway.

TL;DR: Nobody would buy a camera with a 1/12" sensor and a 1.12 ?m pixel size. Fully "digitally zooming" on a Nokia Lumia 1020 is just that.

 

[camstreet1]

TL;DR: Nobody would buy a camera with a 1/12" sensor and a 1.12 ?m pixel size. Fully "digitally zooming" on a Nokia Lumia 1020 is just that.

It's like you almost understand, but then hit a brick wall. I'll let the experts over at dpreview do the talking for me this time: "Zoom Image Quality[/COLOR]
Nokia takes advantage of its big, high-res sensor to offer a true novelty: a digital zoom that doesn’t suck. A “digital zoom” traditionally means cropping the image and then upsampling it to the camera’s native resolution. Since you can’t create image data from thin air, heavy upsampling results in the soft, detail-impoverished images we’ve come to expect from digital zooming. The 1020’s high native resolution means that even with some cropping (zoom) applied, the image is still downsampled through most of the zoom range. You get a 2.7X zoom ratio (a 74mm equivalent in 4:3 mode) before the cropped image hits 5MP. The same digital zoom ratio on an 8MP camera results in a 1MP image being blown back up, with predictably underwhelming results.

[URL="http://connect.dpreview.com/files/p/cms_posts/5234892048/WP_20130812_15_28_20_Pro.jpg"]]Introduction: Do you need 41 megapixels? Our Nokia Lumia 1020 camera review: Connect

In the example above, we see the Lumia 1020 zoomed in to its maximum digital magnification.	In this example we see an iPhone 5 zoomed in to provide a roughly equivalent field of view. In the 100% crops below, it’s clear how much more detail the 1020 retains during digital zooming.
100% crop	100% crop

In good light, quality drops off relatively little when zooming, thanks to the 1020’s solid low ISO performance. With a moderate zoom setting, the loss is negligible. At full zoom, when you’re getting un-oversampled output from the sensor, the quality remains good but noise is definitely more present.
At higher ISOs, image quality drops more as the 1020 doesn’t get to average out noise in the downsampling process. That said, at ISO 800, even at full zoom, image quality remains quite steady at screen resolutions: you have to get down to pixel level to see how more noise is cutting down on detail.
Our verdict is that while the zoom isn’t quite “lossless,” we wouldn’t hesitate to use it under most any lighting condition. Plus, if you’re saving the full-res file as well, you can always get back to the original, unzoomed image."
[/URL]
If you still aren't able to understand the advantage of additional pixels on improved zoom capabilities, so be it.

 

[Beijendorf]

If you still aren't able to understand the advantage of additional pixels on improved zoom capabilities, so be it.

That wasn't even what we discussed. The point you were originally making was that more megapixels = more zoom. You also made statements about how the digital zoom is indeed lossless and wondered why genuine camera manufacturers didn't join the bandwagon.

I've never questioned whether a 41 MP sensor could outperform an 8 MP sensor in digital zooming. Don't give me that strawman argument. What you said was that you wanted an even higher resolution sensor for even more zooming. But that's not how this whole thing works. You get smaller sensor pixels and more noise. The DPReview you linked even points out the noise in the zoomed image at lower light levels which was previously only countered by oversampling in an un-zoomed image. Additionally, since practically nobody brings a tripod for their cellphone, you'll also get quite a bit of motion blur even with steady hands. That is just going to be amplified the higher resolution sensor you have.

You don't get a better image just by adding more and more megapixels and you can't replace an optical zoom with a 100 MP smartphone camera.

 

[BryGuyNovice2014]

You know when I think about it, the 1030 would more like an official flagship phone for the Windows 10 MOS. Why? Because to its number. The Lumia 10xx series and Windows 10 would make a logical counterpart to each other, and they both are 10. So the Lumia would be more of a flagship, with massive camera.

 

[Steve Adams]

Well, its on it's way. Qualcomm and Microsoft have sneaked out that there is a 810 equipped flagship Lumia coming in the future. I am hoping that they sell it unlocked from the MS store. That way I can just buy one and get updates faster.