1GB Ram is no longer enough for WP.

[colinkiama]

I'm not sure if 1 gb devices are doomed just yet.Windows 10 will run fine regardless.Ram is only the amount of memory in use at any one time. A gig is enough for mobiles.The iphone 6 has the same.I would be more inclined to say that phones with snapdragon 400 series processors are no longer enough

The windows 10 mobile tech preview started on s400 phones. Of course its enough

 

[VARUNGUPTA16061992]

My exp on L535 is bit bitter ... Same was on L620 post 8.1 update... I think MS must again focus on user performance front as they used to...! Or may b we need more RAM!!!

 

[a5cent]

My exp on L535 is bit bitter ... Same was on L620 post 8.1 update... I think MS must again focus on user performance front as they used to...! Or may b we need more RAM!!!

If you're using a L535, there are definitely good reasons to want more RAM, but this thread is NOT about any of the lower end devices with 512MB RAM. It's about how much 1GB devices would benefit from a bump to 1.5 or 2GB. Keep the thread on topic please.

RAM is one of those things where having more of it has huge benefits, if your device is constantly struggling for RAM space. Once a device has enough to avoid that struggle 95% of the time, adding more RAM does little, and after some point, adding even more will improve absolutely nothing.

 

[bijak_riyandi]

No, I'm using only 1 app at a time. And you said that obvious and that means you knew I already know that, right?

you can't generalize performance of some apps that's being used in a long time to the overall performance of the device/ecosystem

 

[Yazen]

Candy Crush Saga was ported from iOS using Microsoft's new tool. How can you say there is not a single Android/iOS app on WP?
Candy Crush Saga also runs awesome on 512MB devices.

Not running through an emulator of any sort. Thought the term "porting" gave that away xD
In an ideal situation, Candy Crush source code went through a program that matched certain iOS API to WP equivalents. Therefore in a sense, Candy Crush is native to WP.

EDIT: iOS code is matched to WinRT implementations. Ultimately there will need to be some manual work on the view component, but this software will be a boon to smart developers.

 

[a5cent]

^ I agree.

For Android sourced apps, rhapdog may still have a point however, because those apps, even after their conversion, still require runtime support and apparently some form of emulation to function (their security container). They are somewhat of an Android/WP Chimera.

For apps ported from iOS I absolutely agree though. Calling them iOS apps after their conversion is at least very misleading.

 

[Spectrum90]

Not running through an emulator of any sort. Thought the term "porting" gave that away xD
In an ideal situation, Candy Crush source code went through a program that matched certain iOS API to WP equivalents. Therefore in a sense, Candy Crush is native to WP.

EDIT: iOS code is matched to WinRT implementations. Ultimately there will need to be some manual work on the view component, but this software will be a boon to smart developers.

When a user launches an iOS app in WP, the Objective-C runtime has to be loaded and many iOS libraries. If after that the user launches an Android app, the Android runtime has to be loaded and many Android libraries. The same for Windows apps and HTML5 apps.
In devices with low ram these component can't be cached and performance could suffer, a lot of long Loading/Resuming screens.

...

I think most of the apps ported to WP will be Android apps because they require less changes or no changes at all to the original code base. iOS apps require more work and a bigger divergence in the code base.

 

[colinkiama]

When a user launches an iOS app in WP, the Objective-C runtime has to be loaded and many iOS libraries. If after that the user launches an Android app, the Android runtime has to be loaded and many Android libraries. The same for Windows apps and HTML5 apps.
In devices with low ram these component can't be cached and performance could suffer, a lot of long Loading/Resuming screens.

...

I think most of the apps ported to WP will be Android apps because they require less changes or no changes at all to the original code base. iOS apps require more work and a bigger divergence in the code base.

I agree, this is Most likely going to happen but we should wait to see how the android and IOS apps will run on 512mb devices

 

[Wbutchart1]

If you're using a L535, there are definitely good reasons to want more RAM, but this thread is NOT about any of the lower end devices with 512MB RAM. It's about how much 1GB devices would benefit from a bump to 1.5 or 2GB. Keep the thread on topic please.

RAM is one of those things where having more of it has huge benefits, if your device is constantly struggling for RAM space. Once a device has enough to avoid that struggle 95% of the time, adding more RAM does little, and after some point, adding even more will improve absolutely nothing.

Errr, the L535 does have 1gb ram, low end perhaps but it's not a 512 device.

 

[Br1t]

We are all running the same OS yet WP scales it's memory use depending on available memory. The MS app field medic will show you what's available and what's being used. On my 2gb M8, 1.5 of it is in use, so the answer is more memory helps but not required. Going forward into W10 more required memory is still just an assumption currently, but it makes sense to think the OS will scale with the hardware available at the time.

 

[rhapdog]

When a user launches an iOS app in WP, the Objective-C runtime has to be loaded and many iOS libraries. If after that the user launches an Android app, the Android runtime has to be loaded and many Android libraries. The same for Windows apps and HTML5 apps.

Ah, no. My understanding from the Build is that the plug-in will convert the iOS API calls to W10 API calls, therefore, no iOS libraries are being loaded. The final product published to the store is a native Windows 10 app. Microsoft is making it easier to port, not trying to run iOS apps on WP. You've got that one wrong.

To a large extent, the same is happening with Android, except there will be some portions of an Android runtime, as it is necessary to be able to fully sandbox it. It will still perform better on WP than on Android.

I think most of the apps ported to WP will be Android apps because they require less changes or no changes at all to the original code base. iOS apps require more work and a bigger divergence in the code base.

Actually, iOS apps will be an easier port, from what I understand.

 

[a5cent]

Going forward into W10 more required memory is still just an assumption currently, but it makes sense to think the OS will scale with the hardware available at the time.

Specifically in regard to RAM consumption, that is mostly incorrect.

It is only correct if an OS often struggles to keep all the programs in memory that it is frequently required to execute.

This is often true for 512MB devices. For example, such devices will often forsake executing background tasks, while the user is making a VoIP call. There is rarely enough RAM to do both.

On 1GB devices however, that sort of competition is very rare, simply because the resource RAM isn't limited to the same extent.

It's more accurate to think of RAM the other way around: Not having enough RAM can seriously degrade performance. Once you have enough RAM to keep most everything OS related in memory, in addition to four or five of the user's favorite apps, that's when adding even more RAM starts to offer ever diminishing returns.
Saying that something "scales" implies a linear relationship between a device's RAM capacity and some other measurable benefit. There is no such benefit to be found beyond the 1GB mark, so software can't be said to scale in that way.

 

[a5cent]

most of the apps ported to WP will be Android apps because they require less changes or no changes at all to the original code base.

Source please. Everything I've read so far suggests the exact opposite.

 

[a5cent]

Errr, the L535 does have 1gb ram, low end perhaps but it's not a 512 device.

Gosh darn it, sorry 'bout that. Keep forgetting the 535 is a 1GB device.

I guess I just didn't quite grasp what improvement would have been expected from a L535 with more than 1GB of RAM.

 

[Spectrum90]

Ah, no. My understanding from the Build is that the plug-in will convert the iOS API calls to W10 API calls, therefore, no iOS libraries are being loaded. The final product published to the store is a native Windows 10 app. Microsoft is making it easier to port, not trying to run iOS apps on WP. You've got that one wrong.

Objective-C apps are universal apps, they have access to the whole WinRT API surface, but Microsoft also implemented a subset of the iOS APIs, so apps can be ported easily. Some of these iOS APIs are probably thin adapters to WinRT APIs. In other cases It's impossible to replicate the original behavior using WinRT components. For example the UI, Microsoft implemented UIKit, the iOS UI framework, directly over DirextX, so UIKit is at the same level as XAML, not reusing XAML.
WP has to load the Objective-C runtime and the iOS libraries when an iOS app is launched.

To a large extent, the same is happening with Android, except there will be some portions of an Android runtime, as it is necessary to be able to fully sandbox it. It will still perform better on WP than on Android.

I think for Android Microsoft used the source code of AOSP replacing only the components that interact with Operating System.
For APIs that require high level OS services, for example keyboard or share contract, Microsoft also replaced the Android implementation for the Windows implementation. However, most APIs are just the original AOSP code, I think.

 

[Spectrum90]

Source please. Everything I've read so far suggests the exact opposite.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/3-610
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/2-702

 

[a5cent]

WP has to load the Objective-C runtime and the iOS libraries when an iOS app is launched.

There is no such thing as "the Objective C runtime".

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/3-610
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/2-702

Thx. Will take a look tomorrow.

 

[rhapdog]

For example the UI, Microsoft implemented UIKit, the iOS UI framework, directly over DirextX, so UIKit is at the same level as XAML, not reusing XAML.

Thank you for clearing that up. Like I said, it was my understanding, but I haven't looked into it as deep as you have, because I'm retired from having to do all that still. Glad I'm retired. Still, it's good to know exactly what is happening underneath, since I still retain the curiosity of the programmer, just not the drive to "keep at it" as hard as I once did.

 

[Spectrum90]

There is no such thing as "the Objective C runtime".

Thx. Will take a look tomorrow.

Objective-C is dynamic, so of course it has a runtime.

Objective-C is a runtime oriented language, which means that when it's possible it defers decisions about what will actually be executed from compile & link time to when it's actually executing on the runtime. This gives you a lot of flexibility in that you can redirect messages to appropriate objects as you need to or you can even intentionally swap method implementations, etc. This requires the use of a runtime which can introspect objects to see what they do & don't respond to and dispatch methods appropriately.

Cocoa Samurai: Understanding the Objective-C Runtime



Besides, all programing languages can be considered to have a runtime:

As a simple example of a basic runtime, the runtime system of the C language is a particular set of instructions inserted into the executable image by the compiler. Among other things, these instructions manage the processor stack, create space for local variables, and copy function-call parameters onto the top of the stack. There are often no clear criteria for deciding which language behavior is considered inside the runtime system versus which behavior is "compiled". In this case, the reason that C's stack behavior is part of the runtime, as opposed to part of a keyword of the language, is that it is systematic, maintaining the state of the stack throughout a program's execution. The systematic behavior implements the execution model of the language, as opposed to implementing semantics of particular keywords which are directly translated into code that computes results.

Runtime system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[a5cent]

Objective-C is dynamic, so of course it has a runtime.

Okay, a "runtime library" and a "language runtime" are two completely different things, yet you're implying that both are conceptually similar because they both include the word "runtime". We could almost just as well say that a person who deserts, and my ice cream deserts are the same thing, because both include the word "deserts". Somewhat ridiculous.

Yes, all languages except assembler have some kind of runtime support, but pretending they're all similar or related just isn't helpful.

Objective C, C and C++ all link with various standard language and platform RUNTIME LIBRARIES. Objective C's runtime libraries are a little more involved, but for all these languages, it's the CPU that defines the runtime model they execute under.

This is not true of languages like Java or C# who's execution model is not governed by the CPU but by an intermediate software layer that abstracts the hardware. This is the LANGUAGE RUNTIME. It's what allows these programs to be platform independent.

Normally, the term "runtime" is understood to refer to a language runtime, but I'll try and better qualify that going forward.

Anyway, the point is somewhat getting lost here. The reason this matters is because language runtimes can, for some applications and on some lower power hardware, incur a significant amount of time (CPU cycles) and space (RAM) overhead. This is true for WP's C# apps. It will also be true for Android's Java apps that are ported to WP.

However, that won't be true of the iOS apps that are ported to WP. Without the need for a language runtime, those apps won't incur the same resource penalties, which includes RAM. These apps will get by just fine on a 1GB device, just like the iPhone is.

I'm skeptical the same can be said for apps ported from Android.