1GB Ram is no longer enough for WP.

[psudotechzealot]

Has any developer(Who, that did not previously have an app in the MSFT store) revealed to the public, that they will now, finally, create an app for windows10?

 

[Spectrum90]

Okay, a "runtime library" and a "language runtime" are two completely different things, yet you're implying that both are conceptually similar because they both include the word "runtime". We could almost just as well say that a person who deserts, and my ice cream deserts are the same thing, because both include the word "deserts". Somewhat ridiculous.

Yes, all languages except assembler have some kind of runtime support, but pretending they're all similar or related just isn't helpful.

Objective C, C and C++ all link with various standard language and platform RUNTIME LIBRARIES. Objective C's runtime libraries are a little more involved, but for all these languages, it's the CPU that defines the runtime model they execute under.

This is not true of languages like Java or C# who's execution model is not governed by the CPU but by an intermediate software layer that abstracts the hardware. This is the LANGUAGE RUNTIME. It's what allows these programs to be platform independent.

Normally, the term "runtime" is understood to refer to a language runtime, but I'll try and better qualify that going forward.

Anyway, the point is somewhat getting lost here. The reason this matters is because language runtimes can, for some applications and on some lower power hardware, incur a significant amount of time (CPU cycles) and space (RAM) overhead. This is true for WP's C# apps. It will also be true for Android's Java apps that are ported to WP.

However, that won't be true of the iOS apps that are ported to WP. Without the need for a language runtime, those apps won't incur the same resource penalties, which includes RAM. These apps will get by just fine on a 1GB device, just like the iPhone is.

I'm skeptical the same can be said for apps ported from Android.

A runtime library is a set of APIs used to invoke functionality of the runtime environment. In the case of Objective-C the runtime environment is not implemented only by the CPU or the Operating system. The runtime environment in Objective-C provides high level services that are specific to the language. Objective-C is dynamic, It supports reflection. The compiler stores type information of the object model in the binary, the runtime environment load that information and provide reflection services that are invoked through the runtime library.

So, yes, Objective-C has a language runtime an incur in an overhead. Although, problem for WP is not that Objective-C has a language runtime, the problem is that iOS/Android/Windows/HTML5 have different runtime environments and libraries, so more memory could be needed.

 

[a5cent]

^ I understand your point and agree with most of it. I just disagree with your definition of what qualifies as a language runtime.

No language specific and CPU independent execution environment = No language runtime.
C++ also supports runtime reflection mechanisms, yet nobody claims it depends on a language runtime. What Objective C offers is no different. It's just a more elaborate runtime library.
However, I do agree that simultaneously having to support multiple runtimes could pose a major problem. I just don't yet know enough to judge. I hope MS has a few tricks up their sleeve, e.g. by possibly converting Java to something that runs on the CLR rather than ART,

 

[syspry]

I don't even know why there's even a thread about this. Putting the bare minimum of RAM is just plain miserly and stupid. Apple deserves equal scorn here for doing it too.

I don't want nor do I buy hardware with minimalist specs. You'd think RAM was gold with these guys based on how they hold back

 

[James Light]

For me the question is how much life still has the -20 series...

 

[Spectrum90]

^ I understand your point and agree with most of it. I just disagree with your definition of what qualifies as a language runtime.

No language specific and CPU independent execution environment = No language runtime.
C++ also supports runtime reflection mechanisms, yet nobody claims it depends on a language runtime. What Objective C offers is no different. It's just a more elaborate runtime library.
However, I do agree that simultaneously having to support multiple runtimes could pose a major problem. I just don't yet know enough to judge. I hope MS has a few tricks up their sleeve, e.g. by possibly converting Java to something that runs on the CLR rather than ART,

Reflection is a service of the runtime environment specific to the language, there is no such a thing as a "type system" in machine code.
The C++ compilers store some type information, but the C++ runtime doesn't support reflection. Although, some type information can be obtained through hacks.
In general I would say, the runtime is just simpler for low level languages, and more complex for higher level languages. Objective-C definitely has runtime environment functionality that is language specific, C++ too. C# and Java have A LOT more runtime functionality. Although, the tendency for mobile is to move some of that to the compiler to improve the performance.

I don't know if Microsoft has ART working, I haven't heard anything about it. That would help.

 

[a5cent]

I don't even know why there's even a thread about this. Putting the bare minimum of RAM is just plain miserly and stupid. Apple deserves equal scorn here for doing it too.

Simple:

A) With 512MB devices on the market, it's quite clear that 1GB is not the bare minimum.
B) Sell 10 million of anything and see how quickly it matters to you whether it's worthwhile to save $5. That's 50 million more profits or 50 million less in losses.
C) On a 720p device, adding more than 1GB to a WP device would have very little noticeable benefit (on WP8.1, no idea about W10)

 

[colinkiama]

For me the question is how much life still has the -20 series...

I think it will last till next year, that's when I expect all the really complex apps to be released

 

[syspry]

Simple:

A) With 512MB devices on the market, it's quite clear that 1GB is not the bare minimum.
B) Sell 10 million of anything and see how quickly it matters to you whether it's worthwhile to save $5. That's 50 million more profits or 50 million less in losses.
C) On a 720p device, adding more than 1GB to a WP device would have very little noticeable benefit (on WP8.1, no idea about W10)

I could see your point if we were speaking of phones in developing markets being used for little more than light usage. In high end flagship land, no 1gb just doesn't cut it anymore. Especially for people demanding robust multitasking to keep apps retaining their current state when another app is running in the foreground. I'm even hearing iPhone 6+ users complaining a lot lately on that particular issue.

I'm guessing you're pretty firm in your thoughts on this, but in my opinion excusing anything less than 2gb on a modern flagship on WP, iOS, and Android is just that - an excuse.

1gb of RAM on a WP or iPhone won't hold a candle to what you'd be able to do with 2gb and up for multitasking. Personally I think ANY flagship mobile device launching in 2015 should be running 3gb for your average 2 years covering 2015-2017. As I said in my last post, why are we even debating this? As long as you're willing to pay for it, why not want it? It's not as if 1-2 GB of RAM is going to end up being a notable price difference in modern markets. It's not as if any of these companies isn't going to offer low-mid range phones with reduced specs for those unable to buy a flagship level phone anyway. I think Apple was stubborn and stingy to do it on the iPhone 6. They should've upped it to 2gb and saved the 1gb for an iPhone 6C.

Wanna bet your next pay check they move to 2gb this fall?

 

[colinkiama]

I could see your point if we were speaking of phones in developing markets being used for little more than light usage. In high end flagship land, no 1gb just doesn't cut it anymore. Especially for people demanding robust multitasking to keep apps retaining their current state when another app is running in the foreground. I'm even hearing iPhone 6+ users complaining a lot lately on that particular issue.

I'm guessing you're pretty firm in your thoughts on this, but in my opinion excusing anything less than 2gb on a modern flagship on WP, iOS, and Android is just that - an excuse.

1gb of RAM on a WP or iPhone won't hold a candle to what you'd be able to do with 2gb and up for multitasking. Personally I think ANY flagship mobile device launching in 2015 should be running 3gb for your average 2 years covering 2015-2017. As I said in my last post, why are we even debating this? As long as you're willing to pay for it, why not want it? It's not as if 1-2 GB of RAM is going to end up being a notable price difference in modern markets. It's not as if any of these companies isn't going to offer low-mid range phones with reduced specs for those unable to buy a flagship level phone anyway. I think Apple was stubborn and stingy to do it on the iPhone 6. They should've upped it to 2gb and saved the 1gb for an iPhone 6C.

Wanna bet your next pay check they move to 2gb this fall?

Yeah you are right about flagships but if you read the title of this thread it's about the whole os requiring 1gb ram which obviously isn't true since even the 520 has access to the tech preview and they are 512mb ram devices.

 

[daimv]

Oh the good old times when you could multitask with 512 MB in Symbian (Nokia 808) or 256 MB (Nokia N8), lots of fun although yeah those phones are slow...

Anyhow, here's to 2018 and 32GB RAM in phones (haha! and 128 GB in laptops)

 

[Alfa Kapa]

Anyhow, here's to 2018 and 32GB RAM in phones (haha! and 128 GB in laptops)

If I can recall correctly, kingston has already shown it's 128Gb ram modules for desktops (dual 64Gb modules).
And technology is there for more than 4Gb ram in smartphones at the moment, so I agree with you, in 2018-2020 we might have those specs in the high end devices!

As a response to the OP, having used for many months the lumia 630, I could count more than 100 crashes/ out of memory instanses.
But in the last 2 months that I own the 730 I haven't encounter any problem of this kind (well IE has crashed on me 2 times, but nothing major)
So, for WP8.1 1Gb is enough. Having said this, W10m might feel quicker in 2Gb+ devices, but for the moment we clearly don't know.

Having installed W10tp 10080 on the 630 (my guinea pig), at least the new MSN apps definetely feel snappier than the old once!

 

[P_1]

Totally agree with you. But don't you think guys that internal memory for the windows phone should be bumped up to 16 GB.

 

[Paulius V]

rhapdog, please don't compare a Samsung phone with a smartphone. They have so much bloatware that their 2GB phones perform like 1GB, or even worse, 512MB phones from other manufacturers.