Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default. Agree?

[Drael646464]

Most people don't need the old desktop programs. Windows S would be perfect for 90-95% of the consumer market with a small selection of desktop programs in the Windows Store.

Microsoft doesn't need to force consumers or OEMs. A big discount on Windows 10 S for one or two years would be enough to create the critical mass of users. Developers would willingly add their desktop programs to the Windows Store to target millions of users.

People that need desktop programs that aren't in the Windows Store can always downgrade to Windows Pro for $50.

Windows S will replace Windows Home, that's for sure.

Its a pretty big issue that windows store takes 20-30% of application developers profits. Unlike android and ios, developers currently distribute their own software.

Let's take something like fruity loops 12. The Producer edition costs 199.99 USD. The All bundles option costs 899.99 USD

Adobe products tale a subscription model like 365. The maximum bundle is around 100 USD a month.

Now this is the sort of software MS actually wants in their store. Its an edge that windows has over its competitors that it has well funded, deep, powerful apps. One could easily use games as another example.

Sure the average user has no for adobe photoshop or fruity loops. They do however use fully featured browsers with extensions, play games, want to play with VR, use media cataloguing apps, photo editing suites, things like media servers and so on. Somewhere in the consumer market there are win32 apps that cost more than free, that require more than 3 bucks per user to develop. And in enterprise, creativity and niche markets, the higher cost app is their lifeblood.

I can't say exactly what these companies margins are, given development costs. But I can say that having to charge the customer an extra buck for a 3 dollar app is an acceptable compromise to achieve the same profit, and having to charge the user an extra 269.99 USD, or 33 USD per month, is absolutely not.

The issue for MS and its attendant software isn't just users. Its developers. Windows is THE most popular gaming platform. MS taking 1/3 of all the profit of an industry (gaming) that is bigger than movies re: profit, is just totally unacceptable.

It's completely beyond the pale, and developers just won't buy it. There are discussions all over the net, by developers about how much they don't like this.

MS has to re-think the store model, and make something more accommodating than the apple app store model.

I'm all for UWP succeeding, and Windows future depends on it. But the idea needs refinement if its to succeed IMO. It will need more than windows s and windows on arm, to bring over the power software developers MS needs, to show off things like augmented reality, or the power of the ultramobile PC.

Windows edge is its software power.

It will need more a open development platform, with a less expensive and more democratic store model, if its to actually bring that power, and not lose its entire competitive advantage by becoming indistinguishable from a mobile only platform.

BTW if anyone else agrees with me on the "developer fees for windows store", I created feedback for it just now, so feel free to upvote me.

 

[kulf]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

I'd love developers embrace the store.
But let's face it. None of the programs I use on a daily basis are available in the MS Store.

 

[Johnny Tremaine]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

Sorry, no. It would be a total PR disaster.

Most consumers aren't us---they're low information who walk into a big box store and buy a laptop, and the Sales reps are usually minimum wage college kids.

Imagine the frustration once these folks get home and find out that they cant install, say, iTunes, to manage their iPhone or iPad (no, Apple has zero incentive to offer iTunes via a locked down Microsoft store).

There would be scores of returns, even with the option to upgrade to full Windows 10.

I agree with the other post: you then give an opening to Google to come in to the PC market and offer their own locked down store, but with actual broad developer support and apps people use.

 

[hemanlive]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

I would say, if MS wants to promote windows 10 S and thereby the windows store, then it should provide a discount of $50 on each laptop sold with 10S. Those who really want full windows 10 can pay that extra amount and 'upgrade' to windows 10 (or maybe have two version of each laptop with price difference of $50!)
This will:
Keep those who want their 'freedom' happy
and more importantly provide an incentive to people who are OK with just the Store Apps.
That will really test waters for MS and if 10S still gains popularity it will force developers to move their aps to the UWP program

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

You have to enable the ability to download and use apps from 'other sources' in Android for that to work. You also reduce your security if you do this. You're basically taking the security out of your OS if the whole purpose of 10s and Store is for security reasons.

Not so sure. If for example, google allowed the amazon store, within the google store, you'd need no sideloading. You'd search amazon app store in google play, and click install. Its not like amazon is any less secure than google play. Google of course has no motive to do so, but MS does - developers on windows don't like the lock in. A lot of gamers for example prefer steam, as do game developers.

Equally of course, they could stop asking for 1/3 of developers sale prices. That might be standard in ios and android, but this is windows - software isn't always based on thin margins and high volumes, low grade mcdonalds style fair - sometimes it's the other way around, lower volumes and high margins. You can't make AAA games and sell them for 4 bucks, obvs. And for that 1/3 is unreasonable, as it substantially effects market viability.

The model just doesn't work for all the software on the platform, commercially. Something has to be adjusted.

 

[lumianok smart]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

For sure the success of windows 10 S will depend on wether or not developers will put their apps on the windows store especially x86 apps.
BUT they should definitely think again about the 30% fee they charge for every app in the store. I think MS definitely needs to offer some more incentives (also financially) for developers. often it is an economic desicion...
still I see the advantages you get with Windows Store. Automatic updates alone is fantastic. Probably not an issue for free apps.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

For sure the success of windows 10 S will depend on wether or not developers will put their apps on the windows store especially x86 apps.
BUT they should definitely think again about the 30% fee they charge for every app in the store. I think MS definitely needs to offer some more incentives (also financially) for developers. often it is an economic desicion...
still I see the advantages you get with Windows Store. Automatic updates alone is fantastic. Probably not an issue for free apps.

More protection from piracy too. It's not that you CAN'T pirate uwa's, its more that if the store is on everyones PC, less people will bother. Like the Netflix effect.

 

[Juan Francisco Meneses Saavedra]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

The fact that you people dare to propose something like this is just amazing(ly dumb). Not only is the Windows Store a wasteland, cou clearly haven't used the UWP enough to know that rigth now is a total **** if you try to use it actively (not only as a "pro" user).

And this doesn't seems to get better since Microsoft layed off its QA department just to rely on the dumb-f*cks called insiders (whicheven they get ignored, passing reported bugs by the insiders to the final public releases).

I mean, Is this a normal thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq3PfzYuXKg

Seriously. Microsoft needed to perfect the UWP before even try to offer it to the public. Instead they are trying to force mass consumption of a half-*** product to make it popular and then justify resources to polish it.

Again, almost every UWP part of Windows 10 is a mess. If you are a pro user, you will understand and get mad. If you are a toddler user, you will simply get up to 4 errors (UWP has a lot to offer) and you will never touch this thing, not even look at it. Of course, if you are a microsoft apologists, maybe you don't care anymore.

Fanboys are not a good thing on any plattform. If we want this whole UWP to succed, we need to be really strict with microsoft.
So, should Windows 10 S ship with ALL Windows laptops?. No, god, no.

The Store is empty (more like full of scam apps, just try to search for chrome) and the platform is a nest of bugs and incompetence.

 

[garisa]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

For sure the success of windows 10 S will depend on wether or not developers will put their apps on the windows store especially x86 apps.
BUT they should definitely think again about the 30% fee they charge for every app in the store. I think MS definitely needs to offer some more incentives (also financially) for developers. often it is an economic desicion...
still I see the advantages you get with Windows Store. Automatic updates alone is fantastic. Probably not an issue for free apps.

Automatic updates are a good thing as long as they are optional. They are optional in Windows Store, but installing a specific version of an application is not an option. So automatic updates don't do so much good on this case.

The fact that you people dare to propose something like this is just amazing(ly dumb). Not only is the Windows Store a wasteland, cou clearly haven't used the UWP enough to know that rigth now is a total **** if you try to use it actively (not only as a "pro" user).

And this doesn't seems to get better since Microsoft layed off its QA department just to rely on the dumb-f*cks called insiders (whicheven they get ignored, passing reported bugs by the insiders to the final public releases).

I mean, Is this a normal thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq3PfzYuXKg

Seriously. Microsoft needed to perfect the UWP before even try to offer it to the public. Instead they are trying to force mass consumption of a half-*** product to make it popular and then justify resources to polish it.

Again, almost every UWP part of Windows 10 is a mess. If you are a pro user, you will understand and get mad. If you are a toddler user, you will simply get up to 4 errors (UWP has a lot to offer) and you will never touch this thing, not even look at it. Of course, if you are a microsoft apologists, maybe you don't care anymore.

Fanboys are not a good thing on any plattform. If we want this whole UWP to succed, we need to be really strict with microsoft.
So, should Windows 10 S ship with ALL Windows laptops?. No, god, no.

The Store is empty (more like full of scam apps, just try to search for chrome) and the platform is a nest of bugs and incompetence.

You said it all well. We certainly all want Microsoft to succeed and even to bring us more Windows phones which we like. But not in the cost of people losing their freedom with what they can install on their machines. That would be madness. Microsoft should attract users and developers by offering them a quality product, not by forcing people to use any **** they create.

But I would only like to note that this is not about limiting people to UWP, but to the Store which can have win32 apps as well.

Also, we can say that UWP is actually good for what it was meant: a replacement for Android and iOS apps (we don't have to start talking how Android and iOS apps are better than UWP apps feature-wise). That's just how a look at it. For all those casual things... Of course, some may think of UWP as of future for all kinds of apps, but it's far from that, and we don't know if it's ever going to become a thing, so I don't even try to consider it as replacement for win32.

Also, if they wanted to promote their UWP, they should have pushed more phones. Only phones can make UWP to succeed, not the other way around, because no developer would develop an UWP app only lose Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 market. And if they already have win32 app, why spending money and time in vain only to make an app for Windows 10 PC, and few irrelevant platforms.

But back to the topic, apart from Windows Store apps not being the same as UWP apps, talking anybody into buying a PC limited to the Store would be insane. Even if it worked faster it wouldn't be worth it.

Sent from mTalk on Windows 10 phone

 

[Kattz]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

I don't know if it should be the "default" but I do think that this OS makes sense in some cases.

For education, it makes complete sense. Teachers don't want to deal with malware that got installed along with that program the student found on the web. It also gives them a management system that doesn't require them to have network admin skills. In fact, they might just be a good idea for young kids in general since they can be easily locked down even when the parents aren't that tech savvy.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that these were to be niche devices meant to compete with the Chromebook in the education sector. I didn't think that they were going to be mainstream.

As long as there is the option to upgrade to full Windows either free or at a reasonable price I see no reason to worry about this OS. I highly doubt that Microsoft is going to lock all versions of Windows down so that only store apps can be used. There will be a lot of people switching to Linux or OSX and a lot of developers switching to those platforms if they can't sell Windows programs outside of the store. Microsoft knows this so they aren't going to do anything that crazy. I think that this is a lot of panic over nothing.

 

[Spectrum90]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

Its a pretty big issue that windows store takes 20-30% of application developers profits. Unlike android and ios, developers currently distribute their own software.

It's not a big deal. Developers can still avoid the 30% commission. For example, the user downloads the app from the store. The app starts and ask for a login. The user goes to the developer's site, creates an account and pays for a temporary or perpetual licence.

There is a big incentive to sell through the store, though. Users don't trust small developers to give them payment data. The payment process is just a click in the store.

Distributing apps through the store w/o payment increase sales improving discoverability and security.

Windows S is a win-win-win deal for Microsoft, developers and users.

 

[Juan Francisco Meneses Saavedra]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

I don't know if it should be the "default" but I do think that this OS makes sense in some cases.

For education, it makes complete sense. Teachers don't want to deal with malware that got installed along with that program the student found on the web. It also gives them a management system that doesn't require them to have network admin skills. In fact, they might just be a good idea for young kids in general since they can be easily locked down even when the parents aren't that tech savvy.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that these were to be niche devices meant to compete with the Chromebook in the education sector. I didn't think that they were going to be mainstream.

As long as there is the option to upgrade to full Windows either free or at a reasonable price I see no reason to worry about this OS. I highly doubt that Microsoft is going to lock all versions of Windows down so that only store apps can be used. There will be a lot of people switching to Linux or OSX and a lot of developers switching to those platforms if they can't sell Windows programs outside of the store. Microsoft knows this so they aren't going to do anything that crazy. I think that this is a lot of panic over nothing.

The sad part is that we are all looking at this version of Windows 10 as a fully feature and mature, bug-free product, which is not. It's a miracle to use an app from the store and have it working your whole workday, because it will either crash a lot, be slow as hell or consume high levels of battery (since most apps and games on the store are not natively optimized to windows, they are just some poor ports from another platform).

Also, the fact that Microsoft dares to take a 30% cut of an unwanted product (the store) that they are now trying to shove on our throats (or will try) is just stupid. Taking 30% on the store nobody wants to use?, Really?. They should start with a 1% or 2% cut, hell, even 0% just to even atract developers to their store.

"But they have to maintain servers and ****, so they deserve to be paid!", Yeah?, Devs dont even want to be in the store in the first place. They are selling to users and mostly developers something they don't want. The perfect example is that the store rigth now is there on every Windows 10 machine but barely nobody uses it, so now they have to force its use with Windows 10 S. Besides, Microsoft now milks its user with all the data they harvest (wich is a lot https://docs.microsoft.com/es-es/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlWwIBwExaI

 

[zavandiver]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

Some years back Apple limited downloaded programs to their app store by default. There was a setting that would allow you to download programs from non-Apple sources. Incorporating a setting like that would give Microsoft the best of both worlds. The majority of average, non-tech users would go through the Microsoft store and more tech savvy users could bypass the restriction as needed.

 

[Sargon Aelther]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

Some years back Apple limited downloaded programs to their app store by default. There was a setting that would allow you to download programs from non-Apple sources. Incorporating a setting like that would give Microsoft the best of both worlds. The majority of average, non-tech users would go through the Microsoft store and more tech savvy users could bypass the restriction as needed.

I've said it before, but it seems I'll have to keep saying it:
Ignoring that this kind of thing has been possible for a long time via GP, Windows 10 Creator's update already gives consumers a dumb-down setting preventing apps from outside the store to be installed. It's ALREADY THERE!

Turn it on by default and that's done. Windows 10 S is ABSOLUTELY USELESS! It's nothing more than a cash grab for Microsoft. They could have easily flipped that switch on by default on Home editions, but you know... people wouldn't have to pay Microsoft $50 to unblock their iTunes or whatever.

The only way that Windows S could be justified is by making it ABSOLUTELY free to OEMs and Consumers. Here's a "Lite" version of Windows for free for anyone to download and use without any conditions... want Windows to run your apps, go buy it.

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

I've said it before, but it seems I'll have to keep saying it:
Ignoring that this kind of thing has been possible for a long time via GP, Windows 10 Creator's update already gives consumers a dumb-down setting preventing apps from outside the store to be installed. It's ALREADY THERE!

Turn it on by default and that's done. Windows 10 S is ABSOLUTELY USELESS! It's nothing more than a cash grab for Microsoft. They could have easily flipped that switch on by default on Home editions, but you know... people wouldn't have to pay Microsoft $50 to unblock their iTunes or whatever.

The only way that Windows S could be justified is by making it ABSOLUTELY free to OEMs and Consumers. Here's a "Lite" version of Windows for free for anyone to download and use without any conditions... want Windows to run your apps, go buy it.

You seem to making the assumption that windows s, is simply windows 10, without access to non-store apps. Didn't you watch the edu event live stream? The capabilities of the OS are somewhere between home and pro, and its according to the unveiling supposed to be faster to login, wake, load apps, etc, as compared to pro. They said "15 seconds to long in, and load an app, versus 40 in pro".

As no-one has fully kicked the tires yet, we can't really attest to this or not, but based on what little we know, access to non-store apps, is not the only difference between windows s, and windows pro.

I agree however, that windows s, should have been free - at least for the first few years. Much like developers should get their apps sold on the store free, for the initial years, while its still growing. If MS is making plenty of money in other areas, the store could use some investment.

 

[ariez84]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

When I say "pro" I mean the "real" version of windows. (Pro and Home included).

 

[DavidinCT]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

the "S" version will have it's place. Forcing companies or people to use it, is just bad for the market. I could see people rolling back to 8.1 or even Windows 7 if they cant run a standard application that is on CD or even a DVD buring software.

Microsoft WANTS everyone to make UWP apps but, that is not the case or nor will it happen. Microsoft wants to capture their 10-20% on the sales of apps. Devs can sell their products on the web and get 100% of the profit.

No matter how mich you WANT it to happen, it will never happen. Windows has been known for compatablity. With Windows 10 x32, you can actually run 16 bit apps, Yes, an app that ran on Windows 95 can run on Windows 10. IF they break that, they lose one of the best features of Windows.

If Microsoft blocked Win32 apps from my Windows 10 machine, I would roll back to Windows 7 or 8.1 even with out security updates, even some older aps that I use, that I NEED, will never be make to UWP apps. Windows 10 would be used less and less on a global scale.

I could actually see a Linux option to start doing better, as Microsoft is getting greedy and it will change the marketplace. Large companies dont really know how people will act when they try to control their users.

In the long run this could hurt Microsoft but, just like Windows phone, they can be blind to things...

 

[Drael646464]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

the "S" version will have it's place. Forcing companies or people to use it, is just bad for the market. I could see people rolling back to 8.1 or even Windows 7 if they cant run a standard application that is on CD or even a DVD buring software.

Microsoft WANTS everyone to make UWP apps but, that is not the case or nor will it happen. Microsoft wants to capture their 10-20% on the sales of apps. Devs can sell their products on the web and get 100% of the profit.

No matter how mich you WANT it to happen, it will never happen. Windows has been known for compatablity. With Windows 10 x32, you can actually run 16 bit apps, Yes, an app that ran on Windows 95 can run on Windows 10. IF they break that, they lose one of the best features of Windows.

If Microsoft blocked Win32 apps from my Windows 10 machine, I would roll back to Windows 7 or 8.1 even with out security updates, even some older aps that I use, that I NEED, will never be make to UWP apps. Windows 10 would be used less and less on a global scale.

I could actually see a Linux option to start doing better, as Microsoft is getting greedy and it will change the marketplace. Large companies dont really know how people will act when they try to control their users.

In the long run this could hurt Microsoft but, just like Windows phone, they can be blind to things...

If MS doesn't make UWP work somehow, windows will die. Google and apple aren't sitting on their hands. They will both try to leverage their massive cashflow and market dominance in the mobile space, into the desktop space if given the chance (and apple already has 10%). Googles project "fushia" is probably a windows 10 competitor. If you aren't growing in business, you are dying. MS and Windows will live or die on the basis of UWP.

But I agree that forcing people to use UWPs in mainstream windows is a bad idea, and that store tarrifs should be cheaper to encourage developers. Indeed I think like you windows is a "free and democratic" system and if MS wants windows to survive, it needs to modify its store approach to allow for that. Desktop users and developers are not ipad users and developers- and the platforms biggest strength is the power and range of its software. You can't kill that either.

These two pressures are a delicate situation to handle.

 

[Donald Simard]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

The OEMs could let the consumer decide. Offer a base model with Windows 10 S and another with Windows 10 Pro for $50 more. see which is bought.

I do like the idea of not being locked-in (as was the case with Windows RT) to a dead end OS. Windows 10 S give a path to a full OS should it be required. IF Windows 10 S were on my Surface Pro 3, I am sure I could survive. I have transitioned over time to not depend on Win 32 apps other than Office ones and they will be available through the store. I recently changed settings to require only store apps - I wonder how long that will last before I have to turn it off to get something I really need.

 

[digitaldd]

Re: Every single laptop/tablet sold should come with Windows 10 S as default.

If Windows S is available for free and the Pro version is a paid upgrade I'm down. Think about it you are building a new system and can put S on it for free, if the use case doesn't fit Pro you can at least try the free version and see if you can live with it then pay to upgrade if need be (as long as its not $200 which is about what a Windows 10 pro retail version costs).