Just got my lumia 950 xl, love WP 10! Why is WP having a hard time?

[envio]

Such a simple question from the OP which has such a complex answer but I think it comes down to the timeline of events.

Microsoft was late to the re-birth of the smartphone. The iPhone launched in 2007 and the Android roughly 1 year later. The Windows Phone reboot was in 2010 and by then Microsoft were on the back foot playing catch-up despite having a new, compelling and innovative offering. They made several mis-steps including:

a) No upgrade path from WM6.5 and no direct migration path to WP7.0 (remember the no USB sync debacle?)
b) Non-generic hardware requirements (made it harder for traditional Android OEMs to invest / make WP devices)
c) Poor carrier relationships leading to locked-in exclusives to try and gain traction, not open to a wider audiences from day 0
d) (c) Also resulted in painfully small or non-visibility of WP devices, no product training and little carrier incentives to promote/sell WP devices
e) Sporadic marketing, odd advert messaging
f) very slow execution of new features to bring up to the standard that iPhone/Android were offering at the time (made worse by carrier blocking of updates)
g) Slow execution of international services e.g. Cortana was in beta forever, still only in a select number of markets
h) Subsequent reboot from WP7.5-WP8.0 didn't help galvanize support with zero device upgrades. Then from WP8.1-WP10 which wasn't advertised well, was hard to find without prior knowledge. And now what's left of the WP community has been given another blow with update to W10 CU which has cut off even more devices.
i) Then there's the app gap. Initially hard to get tier 1 apps created for WP. Even harder to get those more local but really important apps like banking. UWP (the final app reboot) brought all the coding into 1 family and Microsoft eventually tried to woo devs with direct conversion tools which worked for a few big players like King.com but the efforts have not paid off overall.

Haven't even dived into the Nokia angle and many other aspects surrounding the shifting market.

 

[Tre Lawrence]

BB10's ecosystem is to the Windows store, what the Windows store is to the Google play store, numerically speaking, its 1/3 of the size.

Amazon tablets do pretty well despite having less apps than Windows 10 mobile. Probably windows 10 mobile could have done a lot better if it was pitched budget like amazon tablets. apps aside. Chromebook is a similar story actually. They didn't always have android app support. Yet they still sold with under 10,000 apps in their store.

bb, like windows always tried to sell elite phones like Samsung and Apple, pitched to enterprise consumers. Which isn't entirely silly, they have a software edge there, and with certain niches (windows). But its now the budget end of android that gets a lot of growth love, even when quite bereft of apps, and google services-less.

Always why windows cloud and windows on arm is pretty smart, beyond the long term vision of convergence and one core. MS needs to encourage affordable everyday products, not just elite high performance ones as much as possible.

Fair points.

I never really thought of the pricing perspective, but as you note, it has seemingly worked for Amazon. Maybe a wider selection of devices at different price points would work for MSFT as well.

A cheaper Surface, for instance, would probably sell like hotcakes and compete very favorably with chromebooks.

On the other hand, there is a risk attached to fighting for the bottom with regards to pricing, as several Android OEMs can attest to.

I've always thought that MSFT's built-in ecosystem is a latent strength. I don't know that MSFT has done the best job of tying it all together. I know my cheapie Windows tab was the best mobile device I've picked up in quite some time.

 

[Drael646464]

UWP (the final app reboot) brought all the coding into 1 family and Microsoft eventually tried to woo devs with direct conversion tools which worked for a few big players like King.com but the efforts have not paid off overall.
Haven't even dived into the Nokia angle and many other aspects surrounding the shifting market.

Do you think UWP is for mobile devices? Like a market strategy for windows 10 mobile? And do you also think that what MS is doing with UWP and UWA has even really started properly?

 

[Drael646464]

Fair points.

I never really thought of the pricing perspective, but as you note, it has seemingly worked for Amazon. Maybe a wider selection of devices at different price points would work for MSFT as well.

A cheaper Surface, for instance, would probably sell like hotcakes and compete very favorably with chromebooks.

On the other hand, there is a risk attached to fighting for the bottom with regards to pricing, as several Android OEMs can attest to.

I've always thought that MSFT's built-in ecosystem is a latent strength. I don't know that MSFT has done the best job of tying it all together. I know my cheapie Windows tab was the best mobile device I've picked up in quite some time.

I'm confident that's exactly what windows on arm, and windows cloud is about, at least in some major portion. I'm also quite suspicious that's why we get rumours of the next surface being arm powered too - I think they'll make a pro, and some other cheaper version.

For OEMs its tricky fighting at the bottom with slim margins. Its a bit like a fighting school of fish. But MS isn't a hardware company. They sell software and software as a service. Bit like google doesn't care what their hardware makers go through - all they need is those google search ads. If cheaper windows devices mean more office subs, more app purchases, more one drive, more licenses paid - its good for MS.

So long as they also keep making quality at the top, they maintain the image of quality, like Samsung does with phones.

Basically we kind of need a 'Huawei/oppo" of windows tablets and laptops. There are a few companies that could be good contenders - cube, teclast, chuwi in particular.

I've used some awesome cheap windows tablets - ones with nice hybrid design, good screens, decent fluid experience, even active stylus support.

Currently the only two areas in tablets experience growth are windows (5% marketshare currently) and budget devices. Both apple and Samsung have had 3-4 years of lost marketshare. Putting windows in both those catergories I think is a real winner for mindshare, profits and the platform. And for chromebooks versus windows cloud, I think windows has a good edge with its touch support, stylus support, hybrid factors and the upgradaeabilty.

Well see how it rolls, but I am expecting the moves made this year in this direction will have direct marketshare payoffs in larger screened mobile devices. Probably even kill the chromebook eventually, and if it can capture a decent tablet market share it'll gain real momentum in general.

Between that and project scorpio, next year will probably be the year where we begin to see UWP, UWA, cshell, one core, all starting to come together as a market strategy.

 

[nate0]

Probably the only way to do that is FTL, like quantum entanglement.

Now you are on the right track...but lets wait 5 yrs more or less

 

[Sedp23]

There's literally no developer support. Very minimal support. We've got a facebook app from 2014 that hasn't been updated in 6 months and that's one of the biggest apps on any phone. The OS imo is great its just the lack of apps and hardware at this phone that are killing it

Sent from Idol 4s

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Most folks who use bovine descriptors for people who select consumer merchandise don't claim it is positive, so in that, you are unique.

No need to insult cows now. Not to mention the Ovines, many of which take it as the greatest insult to be called a cow. Sheep have very low opinions of Bovines, perhaps rightly so. I mean sheep correctly predicted the future demand for outer garments and evolved in a way to survive their creation. Not to mention making sure they remained less tasty.

 

[Tre Lawrence]

There's literally no developer support. Very minimal support. We've got a facebook app from 2014 that hasn't been updated in 6 months and that's one of the biggest apps on any phone. The OS imo is great its just the lack of apps and hardware at this phone that are killing it

Sent from Idol 4s

It's a tough problem. App support would help, but developers got to eat too.

Hopefully, MSFT is pivoting correctly. I think consumers deserve as many mobile platforms as possible.

 

[Drael646464]

Now you are on the right track...but lets wait 5 yrs more or less

I'll be looking forward to folding screens and full voice control about the time your looking forward to quantum FTL networking then

Not that I would mind!

 

[mattiasnyc]

I love WP, but that lack of ecosystem is what I think is the biggest barrier to mass adoption... much like BB10.

W10/W10M has a good ecosystem. The way I understand the term it's about integration of different parts, from email client to cloud storage to messaging to whatever. The ability to get notifications that would normally go on your phone only onto your desktop is clearly an ecosystem feature. Do you get the same level of integration on Google as easily?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

There's literally no developer support. Very minimal support.

I'm totally ignorant on whatever developer support exists for WM, Android and iOS. That could certainly have a huge impact.

And are Android and iOS developers impacted as much and as often as WM developers by OS changes? I know some wp8.1 apps don't run on WM10 and most(all?) WM10 apps don't run on Wp8.1. How long is the lifespan of an app in Android or iOS? What are the odds that a new app in either ecosystem won't run on older phones because of OS compatibility?

 

[Tre Lawrence]

I was using the term much more narrowly. Your definition is a fair, all-encompassing one.

I was referring to an app-specific situation, but hardware as well. A Samsung Android/Apple flagship device owner, for instance, knows that he/she would get the best apps, accessories and other integrations.

It's tough to be a third option going against that.

Now, I personally think Google has the most frustratingly patched-together ecosystem available. The messaging solutions, for instance, feel haphazard at best. Sill, if mobile devices are the current center of most folks' overall tech strategies, it's relatively easy to see how Google stumbled (IMHO) into a leadership position.

Thing is, I think MSFT has similar anchor products to Google (like MS Office and Skype); I think it can sill leverage these to create something consumers can latch onto.

 

[nate0]

I'll be looking forward to folding screens and full voice control about the time your looking forward to quantum FTL networking then

Not that I would mind!

If I make it to see it, us folks could end up the hippest grandparents in this century

 

[Sedp23]

I'm totally ignorant on whatever developer support exists for WM, Android and iOS. That could certainly have a huge impact.

And are Android and iOS developers impacted as much and as often as WM developers by OS changes? I know some wp8.1 apps don't run on WM10 and most(all?) WM10 apps don't run on Wp8.1. How long is the lifespan of an app in Android or iOS? What are the odds that a new app in either ecosystem won't run on older phones because of OS compatibility?

Take Facebook for instance. It's available for android, ios and Windows . The windows version is completely out of date. Android and ios get updates every week. The windows 10 Mobile version hasnt been updated in 6 months

There's also alot of big name apps like chase bank, targets cartwheel app, paypal, ebay, Comcast xfinity app, and plenty others that aren't on windows 10 Mobile at all.

Sent from Idol 4s

 

[Tre Lawrence]

Take Facebook for instance. It's available for android, ios and Windows . The windows version is completely out of date. Android and ios get updates every week. The windows 10 Mobile version hasnt been updated in 6 months

There's also alot of big name apps like chase bank, targets cartwheel app, paypal, ebay, Comcast xfinity app, and plenty others that aren't on windows 10 Mobile at all.

Sent from Idol 4s

And I think that's why the app thing is so tough to conquer. So may apps, so little resources. On Android, there is an app gap, albeit much less pronounced.

 

[xandros9]

Where else can you find a mobile OS with a color profile or easily 500 nits brightness? Not to mention an incredible sunlight readability contrasting off-set that is also complimented with a Clear black display? Where can you find a OS this secure and still be able to side load apps? Without a bunch of add-ons where else can you find an OS with a Global dark them? Where else can you find a mobile OS that allows you to sync text/messaging sms/mms to your PC when you want or need to? What other mobile OS (besides 1) allows you to dock your device to a keyboard/mouse/display to work and do things as a PC would allow?

All these things may not be in every device, but it is a good reason it is not dead.

Time to play Devil's Advocate!

I know my Priv has color settings and the Galaxy S8, among other phones certainly do.

The Huawei P9 has a 500 nit display, the LG G6 and iPhone 7 Plus also can smash 500 nits in automatic mode if need be so it's all hardware dependent.

Pushbullet and other things are a solution for Android, iMessage already works across Apple devices.

Samsung's DeX and Maru OS are two Android solutions that work, and they're actually being improved I believe.

 

[anon(50597)]

I didn't know we used the "sheep" pejorative here too! Had to check the url.

I love WP, but that lack of ecosystem is what I think is the biggest barrier to mass adoption... much like BB10.

Brings back memories (sheep), eh Tre?

Sent from mTalk on my SP4

 

[anon(50597)]

No need to insult cows now. Not to mention the Ovines, many of which take it as the greatest insult to be called a cow. Sheep have very low opinions of Bovines, perhaps rightly so. I mean sheep correctly predicted the future demand for outer garments and evolved in a way to survive their creation. Not to mention making sure they remained less tasty.

Reminds me of Pink Floyd, Animals.
Off to listen to some Pigs!

Sent from mTalk on my SP4

 

[pedmar007]

It's been treated as a hobby by MS. They tend to treat W10M as second-class. Nadella doesn't seem to believe in the value of having a solid mobile presence. Granted, it's an expensive and slow affair to claw marketshare.

That is complete BS from MS as any and everyone knows that in order to gather interest or garner it that there has to be something that peaks the consumer's interests. Had MS put more effort into the OS then all the constant marketshare talk would be null and void because there would be continued interest and as such the devs would've been updating and creating apps for the OS. There's no one in the history of business that will create for a non-existing consumer base. Who at MS actually have degrees in commonsense? WHO!!! All MS had to do was to make the latest update to the Windows10 Mobile OS a true creator's update by bringing more functionality to it and bring back gestures, tweaking the home screen tiles, bringing font style change system wide along with making the OS feel truly like "Windows 10" with it's fluidity and speed. That's all MS had to do and the interest would have started to grow.

Did either Google or Apple query market share when they started or did they build and build and improve and improve to get the market share to where it is now. So what's the %$#@ issue MS?

 

[Panos Athanasiou]

Re: Why is WP having a hard time?

Well no advertisement, and the advertisement done on older WP was not that good and no new features :/

If MS starts bringing features with RS3, if they give W10M RS3 they should, give a lot of features and great ones ones that we have been asking for a lot of time, then they need to do proper marketting, that way people will think about it, people will start buying and devs will see that there is a platform that they can invest in with their apps, since for devs W10M has many great features to use out of the box