Microsoft is not ready to do "whatever it takes" for Windows Mobile

[Joshwin]

But W10M is not WP7/WP8 is it?

 

[elindalyne]

People are quick to sound smart by saying a $200 subsidized phone is really $2000 if you include the plan. But you have to pay for a plan regardless of whether you are locked into a carrier. I'd rather pay $200 for a phone than $650 for a phone even if the $650 phone allows me to jump from carrier to carrier. What's the point of jumping from carrier to carrier if the plans and prices are almost the same between carriers? It makes sense for Europe where there are so many small countries in close proximity. But in the US, the freedom doesn't give you any true benefits.

Uh.. In the past a comparable plan from ATT/VZW/Sprint would have been over double the cost of comparable prepaid plans. The phone subsidy definitely was not worth it. Prices may have dropped since then, but for the most part you will still pay less overall for a prepaid plan + phone then a contract with a subsidy....

 

[JohnIvory]

I'm happy with my HTC One M8 and I'm going to have to go with it longer than I expected.

I was so excited for the 950XL. But the latest events have soured me. It was one thing to expect me to pay the entire $650+tax upfront. But then to hear that it wasn't compatible with Verizon. You can't keep putting up barriers to your fans. Fans will meet you halfway but you have to go the other half too.

There's a lot Microsoft can do. It's not entirely out of their control. For example, they could do a payment plan like Apple. Give a way to lock people into your ecosystem the way Apple is doing with the iPhone. People are so high-minded about the freedom of unlocked phones and paying the full cost of the phone. But people prefer not to blow all their money at once. Monthly payments are much more palatable. Monthly plans can work out for Microsoft too. Rather than selling $650 phones which eventually get price reduced, they can sell the $650 phones at a lower monthly cost that never gets reduced. Guaranteed stable income. Isn't that the real reason to go to subscriptions with Office 365? Guaranteed consistent income versus the feast and famine phases of sales.

You're right, there is a lot Microsoft can do, and most people have already suggested an Apple like payment plan. What you guys fail to realise is the difference in how Apple views the iPhone and Microsoft views Windows Phone. The iPhone is Apple's bread and butter. It is the reason they are the richest company in the world. They would doing anything to keep their dominance. Their payment plan basically amounts to taking low interest loans out for each iPhone and passing the cost gradually to the consumer. That probably took a while to set up.
With Microsoft however, there simply aren't enough people trying to buy Windows Phones for them to justify wasting that kind of effort on financing. That's what I mean in my post. If there was a good chance that financing would finally move the needle, Microsoft would have done it. But we've had phones subsidised by carriers since 2010, and we're still at 3%. It would be foolish to waste any more money on this, even for the fans.

Anyway, the turn of events means I can focus money on the Surface Pro 4, the Microsoft Band 2, and the rapidly incoming Halo Xbox One. So excited!

This right here is exactly what Microsoft is betting on. That even if you don't buy a Windows Phone, there is enough value in all of their other products that they keep you around as a customer. And who knows, maybe someday integration between mobile and desktop would be so tight it will start shifting the market back in their favour.

 

[donkiluminate]

As much as I love WM I think it's going to whither and die on the vine. If MS really wanted to they could make something of it but they just don't have the will to do it. Not to disparage Gabe Aul and his team but it seams like upper management has given up on the platform and are only keeping WM alive as to not burn any bridges. WM is lacking a true platform champion to shepherd the platform.

It seems to me WM's problems really took a turn for the worse when Elop came on board.

 

[onlysublime]

Uh.. In the past a comparable plan from ATT/VZW/Sprint would have been over double the cost of comparable prepaid plans. The phone subsidy definitely was not worth it. Prices may have dropped since then, but for the most part you will still pay less overall for a prepaid plan + phone then a contract with a subsidy....

show me how a prepaid plan + phone is cheaper on a month to month basis. when owning a flagship phone

 

[onlysublime]

With Microsoft however, there simply aren't enough people trying to buy Windows Phones for them to justify wasting that kind of effort on financing. That's what I mean in my post. If there was a good chance that financing would finally move the needle, Microsoft would have done it. But we've had phones subsidised by carriers since 2010, and we're still at 3%. It would be foolish to waste any more money on this, even for the fans.

It's not about "moving the needle". It's about keeping what few fans you have left. Financing would not be hard or expensive especially if what you say is true (that no one would take advantage of it and that there would be no uptake of the option).

Microsoft has effectively turned Windows Mobile into Blackberry. The only people still buying Blackberry at full price are Crackberry fans. Blackberry has essentially told their fans that if they want their phones, go buy it at regular pricing. They've abandoned trying to sell Blackberry to regular people. Just keep milking the fans you have left.

If Microsoft has given up on trying to make their phones easy to purchase, then just give up entirely.

The only reasoning I see with the course of action they have made is these Nokia designs were so far along and fans were so itching for any kind of flagships, that they had to release these phones or else have everyone give up on the platform. But their marketing is so half-hearted. Leaving out the biggest carrier out there?

I think any Surface phones in incubation will get the full marketing push by Microsoft. I bet in 6 months, there'll be a Surface phone and it will be carried by multiple carriers. It's as if Microsoft is thinking, "the 950 and 950 XL won't sell. Why put a lot of effort into them? Let's just wait for the Surface phones to push hard." And I think a big part of the reasoning has to be the unfortunate timing of Windows 10 Mobile. It's coming in so hot and heavy. There's no fast stable build. It's almost an alpha. The idea that 950 and 950XL will get a preview build OS is crazy. By the time Surface phones are ready, the OS will be mature and stable and all that we expect Windows Mobile to be. This is when I think Microsoft will get back in the game.

 

[elindalyne]

show me how a prepaid plan + phone is cheaper on a month to month basis. when owning a flagship phone

Verizon 6GB Plan - $60/month + $20 line fee + $27.08/month - Total cost - $2569.92
ATT 5GB Plan - $50/month + 40/month for a new phone - Total cost $2160
TMobile BYOD Unlimited Plan w/7GB of tethering - $80/month + $649 phone - Total cost $2569
TMobile BYOD 5GB plan - $70/month + $649 phone - $2329
Straight Talk 5 GB Plan - $45/month - $1080 + $649 phone - Total cost $1729

You also need to remember, these plans have just changed in the last year. Prior to this year, you'd be paying even more for the ATT/VZW plans.

 

[barnyr]

show me how a prepaid plan + phone is cheaper on a month to month basis. when owning a flagship phone

On ATT, if you buy iPhone 6s+ on contract you pay $300 upfront plus an extra $25 per month for 24 months for total of $900. Off contract you pay $750.

 

[JohnIvory]

Financing would not be hard or expensive especially if what you say is true (that no one would take advantage of it and that there would be no uptake of the option).

It's not just about the money, it's about the time involved to set such things up with a financial institution, to negotiate interest rates and prices, etc. It's a lot of effort that required that Microsoft would have been looking into this probably late last year, and considering all the stuff currently going on in the company (Nokia layoffs, Windows 10 development, getting the 950s out of the gate), it is completely not surprising that financing was not a top priority. Like I said, for Apple the iPhone is their bread and butter. For Microsoft Windows Phone so far has been a money pit

It's not about "moving the needle". It's about keeping what few fans you have left.

This is where we disagree. I'm not saying Microsoft shouldn't try to keep its fans satisfied. I'm saying Microsoft shouldn't continue throwing away money when the only reward is a few satisfied fans. It's not sound business. Nadella, and Balmer before him, has a board to answer to. They took a massive write-down on the Nokia purchase. How on earth would he justify financing loans on the next batch of phones so that he can appease US customers, the same customers that have brought Windows Mobile the lowest marketshare in all the regions it has been sold? At some point you guys have to realise that Microsoft doesn't exist just for you.

Microsoft has effectively turned Windows Mobile into Blackberry. The only people still buying Blackberry at full price are Crackberry fans. Blackberry has essentially told their fans that if they want their phones, go buy it at regular pricing. They've abandoned trying to sell Blackberry to regular people. Just keep milking the fans you have left.

Yes, because for both Windows Phone and Blackberry the only people that have shown any interest in buying their phones (except for the extreme affordable low end in Windows Phone's case) are the fans. The difference is that Microsoft has their 1-OS strategy to drive sales, and tight integration between mobile and desktop could yet be a good selling point for their mobile business. It would be foolish for them to stop developing a mobile OS. What's the point of universal apps if they're only going to run on the desktop? But it would also be foolish of them to continue wasting billions every quarter on a product that a small part of the market wants.

Leaving out the biggest carrier out there?

Verizon has been a ****** to Microsoft. When the elephants fight it is the grass that suffers and in this case the fans are suffering. Sorry to all those Windows Phone fans on Verizon, but I honestly feel that this was the best decision for both Microsoft and Verizon. Microsoft gets more control over their OS; Verizon doesn't have to keep stocking Windows Phones it doesn't intend to push/sell.

I think any Surface phones in incubation will get the full marketing push by Microsoft. I bet in 6 months, there'll be a Surface phone and it will be carried by multiple carriers. It's as if Microsoft is thinking, "the 950 and 950 XL won't sell. Why put a lot of effort into them? Let's just wait for the Surface phones to push hard." And I think a big part of the reasoning has to be the unfortunate timing of Windows 10 Mobile. It's coming in so hot and heavy. There's no fast stable build. It's almost an alpha. The idea that 950 and 950XL will get a preview build OS is crazy. By the time Surface phones are ready, the OS will be mature and stable and all that we expect Windows Mobile to be. This is when I think Microsoft will get back in the game.

They say hope springs eternal, and there is no better example of this than Windows Phone fans. I've already written about how sceptic I am on this Surface Phone changing anything for the mobile division. x86-like apps on the phone? The 2000s proved that was a failing strategy. All of you pinning your hopes on the Surface Phone being some kind of revolution, good luck. I will be buying a 950/XL and enjoying what I have today.

 

[onlysublime]

On ATT, if you buy iPhone 6s+ on contract you pay $300 upfront plus an extra $25 per month for 24 months for total of $900. Off contract you pay $750.

again, I ask you. On a monthly basis, show me an off-contract situation that is cheaper than a contract for a high-end phone. again, you're calculating total cost at the end of a contract instead of monthly cost. we're talking everything. phone and service. there is no reason to go off-contract unless you're just looking at how much you're paying total over 2 years.

There's a reason why we pay for a car over the months rather than paying the car upfront. Sure, paying a car upfront in total is cheaper than paying over 3 years. But what a waste of money that can be used for investment and other expenditures. Even the ultra rich negotiate a $300/month car rather than pay the full price upfront.

Can you people not fathom monthly payments versus payments over the life of a contract?

Microsoft is asking me to pay over $700 upfront. And they're asking me to switch carriers. Inferior carriers that drop service all the time. In my business, I actually make phone calls.

 

[onlysublime]

Seriously, there's no point to having Windows Mobile at all at this point. If it's not feasible to sell phones, then just get out.

Make software for Android and iOS. If it's such a bad situation to sell phones, then don't.

 

[JohnIvory]

Seriously, there's no point to having Windows Mobile at all at this point. If it's not feasible to sell phones, then just get out.

Make software for Android and iOS. If it's such a bad situation to sell phones, then don't.

It's almost like you didn't read a word I said. It's not all or nothing. It's not either mortgage the company on mobile or get out. Microsoft needs to have a mobile operating system or the promise of Universal apps is pointless. Microsoft needs to have a mobile operating system or they are essentially ceding a good chunk of their future to the whims of Apple and Google. What Microsoft doesn't need to do is waste money on failing strategies. If the market responds favourably to Windows Mobile, Microsoft will be ready to grow and expand with its OS. That would not be possible at all if they just threw it all away.

 

[elindalyne]

again, I ask you. On a monthly basis, show me an off-contract situation that is cheaper than a contract for a high-end phone. again, you're calculating total cost at the end of a contract instead of monthly cost. we're talking everything. phone and service. there is no reason to go off-contract unless you're just looking at how much you're paying total over 2 years.

There's a reason why we pay for a car over the months rather than paying the car upfront. Sure, paying a car upfront in total is cheaper than paying over 3 years. But what a waste of money that can be used for investment and other expenditures. Even the ultra rich negotiate a $300/month car rather than pay the full price upfront.

Can you people not fathom monthly payments versus payments over the life of a contract?

Microsoft is asking me to pay over $700 upfront. And they're asking me to switch carriers. Inferior carriers that drop service all the time. In my business, I actually make phone calls.

I was totally unaware that people are unable to figure out their own financing options if they're not spoon fed to them by a store...

 

[barnyr]

There's a reason why we pay for a car over the months rather than paying the car upfront. Sure, paying a car upfront in total is cheaper than paying over 3 years. But what a waste of money that can be used for investment and other expenditures. Even the ultra rich negotiate a $300/month car rather than pay the full price upfront.

Can you people not fathom monthly payments versus payments over the life of a contract?

.

I pay for my phone upfront and pay for my car upfront. You are paying more than 10% interest on a loan to buy a phone.

 

[920Walker]

If you want to purchase a phone by financing it and paying interest simply use a credit card.

Do people really finance everything in life?

 

[StevoPhilo]

Even if Microsoft decided to pull from the mobile phone industry they would EVENTUALLY come back to it. Everything is moving to mobile computing. The future is there. They can afford to stay in the game for quite some time. As others have mentioned if app porting and the universal OS takes off then WM is in a great position.

 

[msnawe]

Why would a mobile developer on Android or iOS port apps via universal apps if they hadn't already seen any benefit for wp8.1?

For example, instagram. Why would universal apps convince developers to port their app on w10? They don't even have a MacOS client despite having one for iOS.



As soon as there is a BlackBerry 10 dual SIM, I fully quit Android.

 

[tale 85]

Has anybody thought that Windows Mobile might be thought of an accessory to the system as a whole. A piece of hardware you just add to enhance your experience.
Microsoft knows it's not going to win the phone wars. They just offer a phone to complement the OS.

 

[msnawe]

But nowadays I use my smartphone more than my PC..

As soon as there is a BlackBerry 10 dual SIM, I fully quit Android.

 

[JohnIvory]

Why would a mobile developer on Android or iOS port apps via universal apps if they hadn't already seen any benefit for wp8.1?

For example, instagram. Why would universal apps convince developers to port their app on w10? They don't even have a MacOS client despite having one for iOS.

Well assuming Windows tablets take off (and honestly they're more likely to than Windows Phones) having a universal app for tablets basically means that phones get that app as well, without any effort.

The big deal with Windows Mobile 10 however, is Astoria/Islandwood. If Microsoft can actually convince developers that it is cost-minimal to use these tools, then they basically have no reason not to port to Windows Mobile. If it takes them an extra hour of coding to transform their app to a Windows 10 app, it's basically a no brainer. For an extra hour they have added millions of potential customers. The key thing here is whether or not developers will bite.