OEMs aren't doing any favors to Microsoft

[wolf1891]

Software doesn't necessarily work like that.

Often times, having too many coders on a project will hinder it. It depends on how many different areas are being worked on. And the likelihood of people making changes and enhancements in an area that could affect what someone else is working on.

With a project like this, it is likely that underlying infrastructure for new features has to be fleshed out and tested before letting other people build on top of it. Having a bunch of extra coders waiting around does nothing.

The speed that the OS has been built up is quite impressive. Saying they should have started earlier has nothing to do with how fast they have been working. Only when the start date was.

I happen to believe that WP is already on par, and in some ways, better than the competition already? Dora it support the sheer number of features as its main competitors right now? No. But if that is the metric that you use to judge "better", then WP may not be the choice for you at this time.

I happen to love how what WP does so is implemented. I love the UI. I love the whole people/task-centric approach it takes, as opposed to being a app launcher.

This OS isn't being designed to clone what's already out there. It's a different way of doing things. And they're not going to be able to have every feature or ability available out of the gate. But those features have been coming fast.

okay, you said basically what I was TRYING to say in my post, you just said it better than I did. Thanks!

 

[Reflexx]

I agree that US carriers are a problem.

Carriers will only change their ways if they are driven there by OEMs. And OEMs will only force it if they know that the other OEMs will also do it.

Nokia used to be a huge and powerful force. Then they tried to work outside the carrier model. And look what happened to them.

 

[foosball]

I don't know if I'd say it's a conspiracy, it's just economics.

Definitely follow the money. So how does $15 fee that Android OEM's forkover to MS fit into this?

Sent from my HTC Arrive using Board Express

 

[benjiprice]

Agree with the title of the thread. I'm on android now and I want to switch to WP, but looking at what is available today and what we've seen until now for future devices, there's really nothing that I like. I'm not talking about specs because I know that doesn't matter that much, but most WP phones are just ugly. I don't like the new HTC's at all. I'm hoping Samsung can come out with something nice. I'd say the same for Nokia but it seems it's going to be a while til we see a WP from them, which actually seems really strange to me. I'd hope $1B would also buy some speed of handset development.

All said, we might be close to a tipping point with WP. OEM's using Android are facing lawsuits from both Apple and MS. Samsung itself had to pull their 7.7" tablet from IFA after they had already announced it. Furthermore there's the GOOG+Moto deal. OEMs have to be reconsidering things.
And I think there's actually a lot of latent demand for WP. A lot of people just don't know about it but it really seems like a good solution for less tech savvy people (not saying it's a bad solution for tech savvy ppl, just that android isn't a great solution for people like my mom).

 

[smartpatrol]

Definitely follow the money. So how does $15 fee that Android OEM's forkover to MS fit into this?

AFAIK HTC is the only one paying MS a licensing fee for Android and it's only $5. Although recently MS asked Samsung for $15/device, and Samsung is trying to negotiate it down to "only" $10 in exchange for putting more focus (no pun intended) on MS products. I haven't heard anything since that news came out a couple months ago, not sure if it went into effect yet or what the final amount came to.

But yeah that is a good point. MS would love to see the day when WP7 is actually LESS expensive and less risky than Android. And with Apple and Oracle very aggressively going after Android, it won't be long until that's the case. You have to wonder what companies like LG and Sony are going to do, given that their Android products are already unprofitable. . .

 

[Reflexx]

Hmmm... HTC is the only one paying a fee associated with Android so far. And out of the non-Nokia OEMs, they are putting the most focus on WP. Coincidence?

 

[theefman]

They are making money hand over fist with Android. Their only reason to experiment with WP in its infancy is to just become familiar with it in case it becomes popular.

OEMs have no interest in promoting something that isn't already proven. They will focus on where the revenue stream is.

Nobody cared about Android in the beginning. These things take a little time.

Nobody cared about android until verizon came out with their droid campaign and made it popular. Then it grew exponentially and every oem jumped on board.

If oem's are paying a license fee just to experiment with WP7 that is equivelent to throwing money away. Why pay a licence for something then make no effort whatsoever to get some kind of return from it? Experimenting in case it gets popular doesnt sound like a good reason to licence WP7.

WP7 is unknown because no one is pushing it, not OEM's, not carriers and not Microsoft. Unless one of them is willing to take a chance get out there and tell people about WP7 you wont see demand, period.

Conssumers have had it drummed into their heads for the last few years that the only smartphones worth buying are android and ios. If you dont tell them otherwise, cant expect them to choose otherwise.

Sounds to me that if OEM's just want to follow the revenue stream they shouldnt have bothered licensing WP7 at all in the first place. Pointless being a WP7 handset maker if you dont make any handsets.

 

[Pronk]

okay... now I'm not really looking to defend MS on this topic but... as a programmer I kinda resented this particular statement of yours. First off, are you a programmer? Because if so then you should know that it's not just a case of throwing bodies behind keyboards to get results. Good code takes TIME to design, develop, and TEST. Extra coders can help (in certain areas) but, it's more important to have the few, BEST programmers you can find doing what they do best rather than lots of mediocre to average coders doing okay work that will then require tons more time in the testing and debugging phases.

The mistake MS made was not in failing to develop this O/S fast enough, the mistake was letting the competition get several years head start before even beginning to develop a serious smartphone O/S option. In the little time they have had MS's WP7 development team has done a TON of great work. Would I like them to be even further along? Yes. But I also very much prefer that we have the smoothly functional and stable O/S that we have now rather than a buggy, clunky mess of an O/S that's likely to result when you rush too much and just bring in tons of extra coders to try and knock things out quickly. Better to take the extra time to do it right the first time even if it means not getting all of the features we want as soon as we'd like them.

Time, yes - and this certainly wasn't an attack on coders. But they had time: they knew what their competitors had, they knew what they had to produce to stay on par, and yet the first version of WP7 was only half-baked. Some of that was likely due to in-house teams working on getting the interim WM6.5 OS polished up before moving on. That's where having more people comes in - not to have 1000s of folk trying to do the same job and ending up with a mess (I may not be a coder, but I've worked on big projects with lots of input and I know what a car crash they can be if poorly organised), but to do separate jobs simultaneously rather than having to get one thing done that everyone knew was a stop-gap before cracking on with something new. If MS needed to make two mobile OS teams to stay on par, or at least have more staff available so the teams they had weren't stretched too thin working on two OSs at once, well then that doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me - and they certainly had the money for it.

As for the OEMs, that's most certainly about money - at the moment WP7 isn't a big enough market segment to be worth making a ton of handsets for. That's why a lot of WP7 handsets are externally - and internally for some parts - basically Android redesigns (like when they paint kids action figure toys a different colour and sell it as a new character). They're cheaper to develop and make, and the design costs are spread out. Which is what makes the Nokia efforts all the more interesting. WP7 is their key OS, not the backup plan. It'll be really fascinating to see what a handset maker can come out with when 100% of their focus is making hardware for specific software (and that route never did Apple any harm...).

 

[Reflexx]

Nobody cared about android until verizon came out with their droid campaign and made it popular. Then it grew exponentially and every oem jumped on board.

If oem's are paying a license fee just to experiment with WP7 that is equivelent to throwing money away. Why pay a licence for something then make no effort whatsoever to get some kind of return from it? Experimenting in case it gets popular doesnt sound like a good reason to licence WP7.

WP7 is unknown because no one is pushing it, not OEM's, not carriers and not Microsoft. Unless one of them is willing to take a chance get out there and tell people about WP7 you wont see demand, period.

Conssumers have had it drummed into their heads for the last few years that the only smartphones worth buying are android and ios. If you dont tell them otherwise, cant expect them to choose otherwise.

Sounds to me that if OEM's just want to follow the revenue stream they shouldnt have bothered licensing WP7 at all in the first place. Pointless being a WP7 handset maker if you dont make any handsets.

It is advantageous for OEMs to understand how the OS works on their hardware. They also want to see what their customers who buy it are telling them. It is also always good to keep relationships with companies as big as Microsoft. There can be quite a few reasons for OEMs to offer WP devices even if they aren't yet committed to the platform.

Also keep in mind that OEMs know that Nokia is betting 100% on WP. It would not be surprising to hear that a popular strategy is to let Nokia so all the had work of promoting WP while they ride the wave like what they did with Android when Motorola did all the heavy lifting.

 

[Tobyus]

The first generation of Windows Phones seemed to be Android retreads and cast-offs (LQ Quantum, really?), and even the best phone (Samsung Focus, which I have) shipped with only 8GB of storage and a SD card option that was troublesome at best and headache inducing at worst (as I and many others with SD card reset/erasing issues can attest to).

I have to defend my Quantum. It is a solid device, and the keyboard works great. Having 16GB built-in storage has been nice, and I'd prefer that as opposed to having 8 GB with a possibility of adding more memory at the cost of the headaches you mentioned. The MFG tool is very useful for making registry tweaks (and it comes installed on the device!). Plus, the LG app store in the marketplace has several very useful apps.

I hear what you are saying though, I think that the hardware overall for WP7 devices is weak compared to Android devices released around the same time. The crazy thing is, even with the lacking hardware, they still perform as well as Android devices with a lot more horsepower, and my Quantum has been the most stable smartphone I've ever used. My old Blackberry's had to have the battery pulled on a daily basis (sometimes multiple times per day). My father-in-law's iPhone 4 seems to have issues every time he visits. My mother-in-law's Android phone has had issues ever since she got it, and the Android tablet I borrowed for a weekend had to be rebooted almost every time I tried using the browser with Flash enabled.

I would love to see what a Windows Phone with a dual core CPU and upgraded GPU + more memory could do. I can't imagine the UI getting any smoother, but I could see some improvement in the gaming department.

 

[king5697#CB]

Me ranting.........I don't think Microsoft is that concerned with top notch specs as much as they are concerned with the actual experience that they are trying to sell to consumers.(ala Apple) I think we all have used and under powered device like the previous generation of Blackberry or Windows Mobile and some of us have played with high powered android devices and think we absolutely need the fastest processor or the highest pixel screen. As we all know, high horsepower comes at a cost-battery life. Bigger screens come at the same cost. I know many of us are not big Apple fans but you have to give them credit with what the have done with the iphone. The iphone never had the fastest processor nor the biggest screen... people flocked to it because of the experience. I think Microsoft is learning from their rivals and trying to follow suite by not participating in the spec war but instead, giving its consumers a wonderful experience.

 

[wolf1891]

Me ranting.........I don't think Microsoft is that concerned with top notch specs as much as they are concerned with the actual experience that they are trying to sell to consumers.(ala Apple) I think we all have used and under powered device like the previous generation of Blackberry or Windows Mobile and some of us have played with high powered android devices and think we absolutely need the fastest processor or the highest pixel screen. As we all know, high horsepower comes at a cost-battery life. Bigger screens come at the same cost. I know many of us are not big Apple fans but you have to give them credit with what the have done with the iphone. The iphone never had the fastest processor nor the biggest screen... people flocked to it because of the experience. I think Microsoft is learning from their rivals and trying to follow suite by not participating in the spec war but instead, giving its consumers a wonderful experience.

agreed. that's definitely how it seems to me too and, I'm thinking that's the smarter way to go in the long run.

 

[smartpatrol]

Me ranting.........I don't think Microsoft is that concerned with top notch specs as much as they are concerned with the actual experience that they are trying to sell to consumers.(ala Apple) I think we all have used and under powered device like the previous generation of Blackberry or Windows Mobile and some of us have played with high powered android devices and think we absolutely need the fastest processor or the highest pixel screen. As we all know, high horsepower comes at a cost-battery life. Bigger screens come at the same cost. I know many of us are not big Apple fans but you have to give them credit with what the have done with the iphone. The iphone never had the fastest processor nor the biggest screen... people flocked to it because of the experience. I think Microsoft is learning from their rivals and trying to follow suite by not participating in the spec war but instead, giving its consumers a wonderful experience.

Very true. It seems like the Android fans are the only ones concerned with specs, and that's probably because Android is laggy and choppy even on some dual-core processors.

- Nokia N8 has an ancient 680 MHz ARM11-based processor, yet Symbian runs smooth as silk on it.
- iPhone 4 has an 800 MHz single-core with an outdated PowerVR SGX935 (which is driving the highest-resolution display you can get on a smartphone), and it runs smooth as silk.
- WP7 is running on outdated 1st-gen Snapdragon processors, yet it feels faster and more responsive than far more powerful Android phones.

So I have to agree, most people are not going to be too concerned about the latest specs. Android is really the only OS that feels like it needs more power. The computer/gaming geek in me would love to have the latest 1.5 GHz dual-core CPU in my Windows Phone, but honestly I don't see much need for one.

 

[trivor]

This is in regards to the new HTC phones, but holds true for the first generation of phones.

The HTC Radar is basically a Trophy painted white with a front-facing camera. 8GB of storage with no SD card option (I haven't seen anything about this, so correct me if I'm wrong) is just inexcusable for something attempting to compete with the iPhone or the latest Android devices.

The HTC Titan is interesting, but I'm not convinced it'll find widespread adoption, as a screen that big almost relegates it to a niche market. Even so, a huge phone like this still has only 16GB of storage? Really?

Where is the mainstream 4" / 4.3" screen phone with 32gb of memory, standard?

The first generation of Windows Phones seemed to be Android retreads and cast-offs (LQ Quantum, really?), and even the best phone (Samsung Focus, which I have) shipped with only 8GB of storage and a SD card option that was troublesome at best and headache inducing at worst (as I and many others with SD card reset/erasing issues can attest to).

Looking at the leaked Nokia 703 device - 3.7" screen with 8GB storage? Seriously Nokia? I understand if it's an entry level device, but God, I hope that isn't the Nokia Sea-Ray we've all been salivating about. I really hope their flagship variant knocks our socks off, because if it isn't Nokia, then I don't know who else. Maybe Samsung.

Hopefully the Samsung Galaxy 2 variant for Windows Phone will be a high-spec'd trendsetter.

Oh well, just venting. It really doesn't seem like Microsoft's hardware partners are setting the platform up for success with awesome, mainstream phones with great build qualities and at a minimum, 16GB of storage with 32GB preferred.

Agree!!!! I would really like to get a WP7 BUT it is really hard to commit to the platform. I have yet to see EVEN ONE WP7 carried by anyone (I live in a small resort/retirement community) and my local Verizon store has NO display models or even one in stock that I can look at. Microsoft is in a chicken and egg situation right now and you can't just blame the carriers. OEMs only have so many resources to commit to development (even if they use a platform like Samsung did with its Galaxy S - the Focus is just the WP7 version of the Galaxy S line). I'm on Verizon for their network - why is in the world would I lock into a two contract on 18 month old hardware like the Trophy? There are dual core Android phones (with expandable memory), there are LTE phones (where are the announcements of LTE coming to WP7), there are phones with keyboards (BB type like the Droid Pro or sliders like the Droid 3), etc. And don't tell me I can pop open the Trophy, void my warranty and expand it (maybe) with a 32 GB card. While I understand WP7 with Mango will run great on current hardware I want to future proof myself as much as possible when I commit to a new 2 year contract. Unfortunately, Verizon doesn't have no-contract phones for cheap (I see a lot of GSM AT&T phones for less than $300 w/o a contract).

And APPs (I don't care about the number) - no sports Apps (NFL/NHL have iPhone, Android and even Blackberry - no WP7) - I am a huge sports fan and want my phone to do this for me, Travel Apps (I'm talking about things like Southwest Airlines, Hotel chains, etc.) and they still don't have Audible. And this isn't just a USA problem (worldwide adoptions sucks!!!). And relying on Nokia to save the day is a poor strategy. I'm not sure how Microsoft can turn this around (hoping for the courts to knock down Google is not a winning strategy). And, by the way, iPhone 5 is coming out soon (betting Dual Core and probably a 64 GB option like the iPod touch) and probably an iPhone 4 as the new entry level. Not getting into an Android vs iOS vs WP7 debate - strictly How is Microsoft going to gain any traction in this market.

I really wanted a WP7 at launch - no Verizon WP7 and now that it has one who wants it?

 

[trivor]

Very true. It seems like the Android fans are the only ones concerned with specs, and that's probably because Android is laggy and choppy even on some dual-core processors.

- Nokia N8 has an ancient 680 MHz ARM11-based processor, yet Symbian runs smooth as silk on it.
- iPhone 4 has an 800 MHz single-core with an outdated PowerVR SGX935 (which is driving the highest-resolution display you can get on a smartphone), and it runs smooth as silk.
- WP7 is running on outdated 1st-gen Snapdragon processors, yet it feels faster and more responsive than far more powerful Android phones.

So I have to agree, most people are not going to be too concerned about the latest specs. Android is really the only OS that feels like it needs more power. The computer/gaming geek in me would love to have the latest 1.5 GHz dual-core CPU in my Windows Phone, but honestly I don't see much need for one.

That may be true for now BUT I want a phone that will last for AT LEAST the two years of my contract. How is WP7 version x.x two years from now going to run on 3.5 year old hardware. How about only 16 GB of memory (non-expandable) for all your portable media playing (at least iPhone has a 32 GB option and I expect the iPhone 5 will have 64GB like the biggest iPod touch). How about higher res displays (Super AMOLED plus)? And so on and so forth.

 

[Judge_Daniel]

I want to future proof myself as much as possible when I commit to a new 2 year contract.

That is exactly why I am waiting for the second wave of Windows Phones. I, too, am on Verizon and I wasn't available for upgrade until just two months ago. However, I'm more willing to stay with my WinMo 6.5 Imagio than "upgrade" to the Trophy. I already talked my sister into getting the Trophy because she was moving from a dumb phone and she won't need or want the higher end stuff that most phones will have in the next year and a half, but for me, I want to make sure I can proudly show off WP7 to friends when they see the all new (to them, at least) interface.

 

[Reflexx]

I'm getting the feeling that Nokia is going to try to shore up their low-medium base to try to stop the bleeding before they attempt to release their 9xx series. And I can't blame them, no matter how much I want a flagship device from them.

So now I'm not expecting to see a 9xx device until March or April.

I'd like it to match the HTC Titan in specs. But with a 4" screen, 32 GB of storage, and a kick-*** camera.

It would also be cool if they added little things. Like a color picker for the LIVE Tiles and the background.

 

[theefman]

I'm getting the feeling that Nokia is going to try to shore up their low-medium base to try to stop the bleeding before they attempt to release their 9xx series. And I can't blame them, no matter how much I want a flagship device from them.

So now I'm not expecting to see a 9xx device until March or April.

I'd like it to match the HTC Titan in specs. But with a 4" screen, 32 GB of storage, and a kick-*** camera.

It would also be cool if they added little things. Like a color picker for the LIVE Tiles and the background.

A low end device wont get them back in the game. Look at the reactions to the Titan and Radar, both were well received but everyone is looking at the Titan, the Radar appeals to some but its not seen as the go-to second gen WP7 device. If Nokia comes out with a second string device they shouldnt be surprised if they dont get any attention when(if) samsung also releases a true flagship device.

 

[heyitwrx]

A low end device wont get them back in the game. Look at the reactions to the Titan and Radar, both were well received but everyone is looking at the Titan, the Radar appeals to some but its not seen as the go-to second gen WP7 device. If Nokia comes out with a second string device they shouldnt be surprised if they dont get any attention when(if) samsung also releases a true flagship device.

I definitely agree Nokia needs to put out a flagship device, but I don't think it needs to be the very first device they launch. Remember Elop has said there will be an initial launch and then more rolling out. If the first is a solid, stable, mid-range device at a great price (a la Astound on T-Mobile) it could do ok, not fantastic but respectable. Get everyone used to the idea with marketing, etc. and prove it is a good device then come out guns blazing on one of the follow up devices. This would work especially well if they launch different devices for different carriers at slightly staggered times.

 

[benjiprice]

I frankly have no idea what Nokia is doing. It's been 7 months since the partnership was announced and still these days there's almost more news about non-wp7 than wp7. If I were MS I wouldn't be happy with where things stand, especially after agreeing to pay $1B. It's a matter of weeks before people lock in new 2yr contracts with the iPhone5 and we'll see where ICS comes in. Would have been a great time to have a Nokia alternative, but instead it's looking closer to spring for US availability.
I realize that I know nothing of the internals of Nokia and the challenges in switching to a new OS but from the outside it seems like a pretty sad flagship effort for WP7. Hope things change soon and Nokia comes with some goodies.