Piracy in Windows

[tgp]

I doubt many here would save up to spend $1430 on a Windows license.

I know I wouldn't! I'm not a big Linux fan, but at prices like that I'd become one real quick!

Just something to throw out here; what would happen if a software company, Microsoft for example, would go after someone in a country with a lower average income. How would the user pay the fine? What would be the point of chasing them down? To make them stop using Windows? Now, I'm not condoning pirating in any way. I too believe it's not right. But in real life the chances of someone like that being prosecuted are slim to none.

 

[Chregu]

In Switzerland download of music and movies is allowed for personal use. Upload is however illegal.

I don't download music as I have a Spotify Premium subscription, I do however download movies from times to times (but I also go to the cinema often).

Downloading software is illegal, and I buy all my software anyway (except the software my university paid for).

 

[Rogozinski]

I'm from Bosnia&Herzegovina, but piracy is also allowed in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro etc.

In Croatia and Slovenia not, since they are members of the E.U.

 

[a5cent]

I know I wouldn't! I'm not a big Linux fan, but at prices like that I'd become one real quick

Exactly. I'd say the same. We can preach about morality as much as we want. At the end of the day we need a realistic solution that works. We all know that telling U.S. citizens to save up 1430.- for a Windows license wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of working. Expecting others to do that introduces a double standard. That is not fair. Of course, piracy isn't the solution either.

So again, what is?

The prices for a Windows license in Bosnia seem very high to me. Could it be that government institutions and corporations pay more to MS for official licenses, as a way to compensate for widespread consumer level piracy?

 

[Jazmac]

I'm from Bosnia&Herzegovina, but piracy is also allowed in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro etc.

Not knowing right from wrong to steal is legal in Bosnia/Herzegovina? I think we've found where Nirvana moved. What's B&E get you in Bosnia/Herzegovina? Snooze you lose?

 

[Chregu]

Not knowing right from wrong to steal is legal in Bosnia/Herzegovina? I think we've found where Nirvana moved. What's B&E get you in Bosnia/Herzegovina? Snooze you lose?

Apart from everything else that was said (it actually seems to be illegal, it's just not enforced): If it's not illegal, it's not stealing, at least as long as we accept the autonomy of countries and their laws. Are you Russian by any chance?

 

[MDMcAtee]

It's not like that, you have to understand that there are many countries where people lives with very low salaries, and it's hard to justify spending half what you earn in a month buying a copy of Windows. Normally the prices are higher for software and technology in third world countries..... imagine if you're a uni student it is almost impossible to cover the cost in software alone...

I'm sorry,but it is exactly like that.

There is no gray area here.

If a person chooses to steal what they do not legally own,it is theft plain and simple.

You can try to justify it however you want,but that doesn't change anything.

Each individual in this world has to decide if they are going to be honest,regardless of where they live,or what their financial circumstances are.

We are not discussing a matter of life and death here,we are discussing pirating software that is not legally owned.

Quite frankly I am surprised by those here that feel this practice is somehow justified because they cannot afford to pay for this,and that they have no worries because it is not enforced in their area. These same people complain about how expensive this is,and then wonder why.

 

[a5cent]

If it's not illegal, it's not stealing

Depends on whether you are making a legal or moral argument. Morally it can still be stealing, even if ut isn't legally.

Either way, it is certain that it is illegal. The state couldn't have fined a citizen for 195000 if it wasn't.

 

[Chregu]

Depends on whether you are making a legal or moral argument. Morally it can still be stealing, even if ut isn't legally.

Either way, it is certain that it is illegal. The state couldn't have fined a citizen for 195000 if it wasn't.

I'm making a legal argument. If we go into morality, I think we can discuss forever. (And you said it's illegal in your first post, I guess the quoted poster just didn't read on before making his statement.)

Just as an example: Is it right for a company to earn billions with a product because this company has a monopoly an can sell the said software for a very high price? I prefer to leave these kinds of discussions to other people ;-)

 

[a5cent]

Quite frankly I am surprised by those here that feel this practice is somehow justified because they cannot afford to pay for this,and that they have no worries because it is not enforced in their area. These same people complain about how expensive this is,and then wonder why.

IMHO this discussion has moved passed the question of whether stealing is justified. It isn't, and you are obviously correct that copyright infringement is morally corrupt. IMHO the problem with your point of view is that it is driven entirely by ideology, rather than practicality. If we're going to take a rigid ideological stand, the only reasonable thing to do would be to fine every last Bosnian out of the last few dollars they own, while telling them that they should have saved up for a legal copy, which they just can't realistically afford.

With that you'll have stopped piracy. Great. You'll also have turned Bosnia into a country where not a single consumer uses Windows, and in time, as the working population becomes more proficient with Linux than Windows, the government institutions and corporations will also switch. Basically, your good intentions will have turned all participants into losers, including MS. You'll have killed the last bit of revenue MS generates in Bosnia, and worse, you'll have forced an entire population that is proficient with Windows to use and become proficient with a competing product, while making most of them rabid MS haters.

IMHO we always have two choices: remain ideologically pure, or find a solution that actually works.

 

[Jazmac]

Apart from everything else that was said (it actually seems to be illegal, it's just not enforced): If it's not illegal, it's not stealing, at least as long as we accept the autonomy of countries and their laws. Are you Russian by any chance?

Look, doesn't matter if it is direct or tacit. That is the definition of theft. You didn't pay for a license to use it and you use a crack to get it to work. Its Theft. Doesn't matter where I'm from. Its theft all over the world.

 

[Karthik Naik]

if companies gave countries other than the US/UK the same rates as US/UK and all their services,piracy wouldnt exist
a fine example is the PS4,costs $400 in USA,costs $950 in my country that is why people dont buy it or try getting "grey" market goods etc or get a pc and pirate

 

[BataBole]

Ok everybody, first of all sorry for my bad English, I'm trying to not make mistakes.

Second, piracy in Bosnia and Herzegovina is forbidden but not enforced. So we are allowed to download everything freely.

Third, medical doctors do have average salary of 600-700$ by month in Bosnia. So we can't take half of our salary to buy some genuine product. People gotta feed kids, family, there are bills to pay every month (water, electricity) etc. Have in mind that everything here is much more expensive than it is in US.

Fourth, here is another example. Few months ago licenced Apple store is opened in my city. Few days ago it was closed. Why? Because iPhone 5 was 900$ and iPhone 5s 1100$, iPhone 5s gold 1500$ with no contract. Imagine the medical doctors buying 5s!
But iPhones are still a victim of piracy here. We have black markets where you can get iPhone 5 for 200$.

Believe it or not, I have paid my HTC 8s 250$ in licenced store.

I wanted to buy myself Surface RT when it came out but it is to expensive, in range of iPhone 5s gold. I mean it is to much for just an RT version.

Office 2013 per license cost 300$.
And what you get? Only Word, Excel, PowerPoint?!

What I wanna say is that the high prices are the main reason for piracy here. Again, I'm not supporting it but I am pirating and I will until those prices get way down low!

Cheers!

 

[Chregu]

Look, doesn't matter if it is direct or tacit. That is the definition of theft. You didn't pay for a license to use it and you use a crack to get it to work. Its Theft. Doesn't matter where I'm from. Its theft all over the world.

As you can see on this Wikipedia page, theft is defined differently from country to country. You are of course free to make your own definition and try to force it on everybody, it's just that nobody will care.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft#By_country

 

[SSgt Bruskowiz]

Second, piracy in Bosnia and Herzegovina is forbidden but not enforced. So we are allowed to download everything freely.

Third, medical doctors do have average salary of 600-700$ by month in Bosnia. So we can't take half of our salary to buy some genuine product. People gotta feed kids, family, there are bills to pay every month (water, electricity) etc. Have in mind that everything here is much more expensive than it is in US.

I wanted to buy myself Surface RT when it came out but it is to expensive, in range of iPhone 5s gold. I mean it is to much for just an RT version.

Office 2013 per license cost 300$.
And what you get? Only Word, Excel, PowerPoint?!

What I wanna say is that the high prices are the main reason for piracy here. Again, I'm not supporting it but I am pirating and I will until those prices get way down low!

Cheers!

I know wat you mean, and i agree.
But in the balkan they have internet, webstores and ebay.....
Shopping across the border is not illegal.
No matter wat you earn, it doesnt make it right to steel.
But i can understand your reasoning.

Second, piracy in Bosnia and Herzegovina is forbidden but not enforced. So we are allowed to download everything freely.

Steeling a bike here is also not enforced ( only wen caught in the act) that stil doesnt make it right.

 

[a5cent]

As you can see on this Wikipedia page, theft is defined differently from country to country. You are of course free to make your own definition and try to force it on everybody, it's just that nobody will care.

While we are at it, we can also throw in that it is largely a result of the MPAA's marketing campaign...

Piracy it's a crime - YouTube

...that a large portion of the U.S. population equates copyright infringement with theft/stealing. Even I do that occasionally, but strictly speaking it's a pile of baloney. The definition of theft or stealing implies that the original owner no longer has access to whatever was stolen. For example, if I steal your car, you can no longer drive it. That isn't true of software piracy. That is why piracy is actually neither stealing nor theft. It is copyright infringement, and while that is not the same thing, 'theft' or 'stealing' just have a better affect if you're trying to influence people who aren't lawyers.

Still, like I said, I don't think this is a worthwhile debate. Essentially everyone agrees that stealing, theft and even copyright infringement are all bad things. It's not fair. It's freeloading. It's morally corrupt. But just pointing fingers and claiming the moral high ground is useless if you don't have a solution.

If pointing fingers is all you can do, you're part of the problem. The debate should be about how the situation can be dealt with so everyone is a winner, the population of Bosnia Herzegovina and MS.

 

[Kevin N Smith]

I pirate things if I feel the developer or company is asking too much for the software. For example, with Windows 7, I think $300+ is outrageous for a slightly major update from Vista. Then, I pirate it. In the case of, for example, some more recent Mac OSX Versions, I always buy it (19.99) because I feel the dev isn't scamming customers by charging outrageous prices for it.

 

[fatclue_98]

This is not about ideology or morality. We're not talking about food or medicine, we're talking software. If my child needs blood and you're a match but don't want to give it up, what do you think I'm going to do? No brainer right? I think we can all agree on that one regardless of your socioeconomic position.

Software piracy is stealing from a person or company who depends on those revenues to support a family or a payroll. Medicine is socialized across most of Europe and doctors and pharmacists will get their paper from the government. Not so with software. It's us poor saps that pay for software who end up footing the bill by paying higher prices because of said piracy.

Want to talk to me about stealing food to feed the hungry? I'm with you all the way. Software, uh no.

 

[paulsalter]

if companies gave countries other than the US/UK the same rates as US/UK and all their services,piracy wouldnt exist
a fine example is the PS4,costs $400 in USA,costs $950 in my country that is why people dont buy it or try getting "grey" market goods etc or get a pc and pirate

If only the UK did get these bargains you say, PS4 in UK is around ?350 which is just under $600, 50% more than the US

 

[a5cent]

This is not about ideology or morality. We're not talking about food or medicine, we're talking software.



It's us poor saps that pay for software who end up footing the bill by paying higher prices because of said piracy.

1)
I already explained why legally piracy is not stealing.

2)
I think you are somewhat twisting the moral/ideological argument. This was never about whether access to software is a basic human right, like food. Obviously it is not. It was about whether strict adherence to (and enforcement of) a moral codex results in the best possible outcome for MS. As far as I can tell it doesn't. Forcing every consumer in Bosnia to use Linux is not in MS' best interest, but that seems to be the only logical consequence of strictly enforcing what would be moral.

3)
Your last point sounds right, but it's just not true in reality. We aren't paying higher prices for software than we otherwise would, because even if we made it impossible for Bosnians to pirate Windows, that wouldn't result in a single extra dime going into MS' pockets. At least not without MS drastically reducing the price of a Windows license in Bosnia, so as to make it affordable, but it appears MS does the opposite.