Questions about PCs/parts - Consulting

[QwarkDreams]

Keep in mind that there's already the next generation of sockets ahead (we already have DDR4 moduls). I wouldn't spend too much money on the mobo, CPU and RAM since they are the parts you'll need to replace when DDR4 becomes available for other sockets. Plus, new sockets will probably mean new CPUs and that the old ones (like the current ones) will not work with them. Upgrading only one of those parts is not possible.

I can't predict when this is going to happen and how the prices will change. Planning ahead on how powerful a PC must be to be able to play future games won't work. You can't predict what the requirements might be.

What you can do is choose the best CPU/GPU for the games you're playing now, because AMD has some advantage in certain games over Intel, and vice versa. Same goes for the GPUs. Look at benchmarks taken with the games you're playing and the software you use to see which CPU and GPU will give you the best performance.

I highly recommend that you go to PC-oriented forums (like LinusTechTips, TekSyndicate and Tom'sHardware) because most people there have much more knowledge about PCs than I do (I just got into this whole build-your-own-PC thing earlier this year). They will be able to help you much better than I can and they are usually pretty nice and won't bite you ;-)

 

[xboxonthego3]

Yea. I am debating about waiting for Broadwell to see what it brings. I'll look at some benchmarks for some games like you said. And make sure to check out those other forums. I've seen some videos from Linus so ill start there. Thanks again for your advice it has been beneficial!

 

[QwarkDreams]

Yea. I am debating about waiting for Broadwell to see what it brings. I'll look at some benchmarks for some games like you said. And make sure to check out those other forums. I've seen some videos from Linus so ill start there. Thanks again for your advice it has been beneficial!

Linus' videos are nice but almost 90% overkill-PCs and already outdated (except the one with DDR4 RAM, but that's a PC intended for work, not for gaming). TekSyndicate has some nice buyer's guides but unfortunetely they are outdated too (they were always price-oriented mid-level builds).

If you ask in those forums (better ask in more than one and compare the suggestions) for recommendations. Make sure to tell them what you're going to use the PC for (name of games and programs, at what resolution and Hz you're gaming), your budget, where you live (so they can adjust their suggestions to your region (for example, EVGA is not available in Europe afaik) and some details about the parts (how many drives you will use - hence SATA ports on the mobo -, parts you already have, if you need an optical drive/OS,...). The more detailed your request the better the answers will be.

I missed out on asking in one of those communities and I'm already a bit unsatisfied with my purchases because I didn't knew much about the differences and what would give me the best performance when I bought the parts ;-) Instead I got decent performance for a good price but I would gladly spend a bit more if I could (saving on the wrong parts is just as bad as spending too much) ;-)

I'm sure you'll get some great recommendation builds over there

 

[gedzum]

Hey Qwark any updates with your build?

I'm thinking of finally upgrading. I've been somewhat out of the loop when it comes to PC hardware. I'm looking for a build that will be good for some lighting design software (DiaLUX) and AutoCAD; as well as some photo and video editing. Oh and of course some gaming

I mainly just need a MoBo, CPU, RAM and maybe a new cooler (probably stick to air cooler since I won't be doing much OC). Will also consider a lower wattage, efficient power supply. Budget will probably be around ?500 but I'll say it's a somewhat flexible budget with some wiggle room especially if I consider a new PSU.

Any recommendations will be appreciated. I'll also look around at some build guides.

 

[QwarkDreams]

Hey Qwark any updates with your build?

I'm thinking of finally upgrading. I've been somewhat out of the loop when it comes to PC hardware. I'm looking for a build that will be good for some lighting design software (DiaLUX) and AutoCAD; as well as some photo and video editing. Oh and of course some gaming

I mainly just need a MoBo, CPU, RAM and maybe a new cooler (probably stick to air cooler since I won't be doing much OC). Will also consider a lower wattage, efficient power supply. Budget will probably be around ?500 but I'll say it's a somewhat flexible budget with some wiggle room especially if I consider a new PSU.

Any recommendations will be appreciated. I'll also look around at some build guides.

Not really. Now that I have some money to spend I don't know where to begin. Monitor, mouse+pad, keyboard, speakers, DAC/AMP combo, laptop, HDD/SSD, new glasses (okay, the last one is obvious^^),...
I think I'll wait with my CPU/GPU upgrade (maybe AMD releases something compelling with the 300-series or maybe the GTX960 will be nice / CPU is a bit more complicated, since I haven't encountered any disadvantages caused by my not very powerful i3-4130, so, upgrading it is not really necessary, especially when I don't know how Skylake will turn out and what AMD is cooking). Might as well be an upgrade to DDR4 if the prices drop over the next 1-2 years.

Have you looked at the i7-5820K? Even with it being the "weakest" i7-Extreme, it still is a beast for software applications and games. The downside is that it requires expensive DDR4 memory and an appropriate mobo (5820K+mobo+16GB DDR4 -> ~620 GBP, I tried to keep the price low but those are almost the cheapest parts I could find). Oh, yeah, and most 2011-3 mobos are EATX, afaik, so you would need a new case (if you're still rocking the CM 692).
A great alternative would be the i7-4790K (said to be the best choice for 1150) with a nice mobo and 16GB RAM, like this config: Intel Core i7-4790K - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom (you can change the mobo to anything you want and pay less, I only chose this one because the Maximus series is supposed to be top notch).

Are your GPUs still doing a good job? Don't know how 460s perform in SLI. Might look into a 970. (but the stuff above PLUS a new GPU will definately blow your budget)

 

[gedzum]

Not really. Now that I have some money to spend I don't know where to begin. Monitor, mouse+pad, keyboard, speakers, DAC/AMP combo, laptop, HDD/SSD, new glasses (okay, the last one is obvious^^),...

haha def the new glasses

Have you looked at the i7-5820K? Even with it being the "weakest" i7-Extreme, it still is a beast for software applications and games. The downside is that it requires expensive DDR4 memory and an appropriate mobo (5820K+mobo+16GB DDR4 -> ~620 GBP, I tried to keep the price low but those are almost the cheapest parts I could find). Oh, yeah, and most 2011-3 mobos are EATX, afaik, so you would need a new case (if you're still rocking the CM 692).
A great alternative would be the i7-4790K (said to be the best choice for 1150) with a nice mobo and 16GB RAM, like this config: Intel Core i7-4790K - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom (you can change the mobo to anything you want and pay less, I only chose this one because the Maximus series is supposed to be top notch).

Hmm the first i7 extreme build is def a bit more than I want to go for. At that point I might look to add a new, lower wattage PSU for the cheaper 4790K build. The second build looks more up my alley. I tried looking around and made some slight changes to those parts more for the aesthetics to match the EVGA 780.

Intel Z97 ATX Asus Motherboard Socket 1150 - Z97-AR - Scan.co.uk
Intel Core i7-4790K Socket 1150 'Devils Canyon' (22nm) Quad Core Processor Retail with Heat Sink Fan - BX80646I74790K - Scan.co.uk
Corsair Memory Vengeance Pro Series Silver 16GB DDR3 1866 MHz Dual Channel Desktop - CMY16GX3M2A1866C9 - Scan.co.uk

Do those look ok? Total comes to around ?520

This mobo also caught my eye for only a few more pounds:

Asus SABERTOOTH Z97 MARK 2, Intel Z97, Socket 1150, Motherboard - Scan.co.uk

Are your GPUs still doing a good job? Don't know how 460s perform in SLI. Might look into a 970. (but the stuff above PLUS a new GPU will definately blow your budget)

Ah I totally forgot to list my current rig :eck:

CPU: AMD 955
RAM: 4GB G Skill
GPU: EVGA GTX 780
PSU: XFX 750W
SSD: Samsung 840 EVO 250GB
HDD: 2x 1TB drives
Case: CM692

 

[QwarkDreams]

haha def the new glasses



Hmm the first i7 extreme build is def a bit more than I want to go for. At that point I might look to add a new, lower wattage PSU for the cheaper 4790K build. The second build looks more up my alley. I tried looking around and made some slight changes to those parts more for the aesthetics to match the EVGA 780.

Intel Z97 ATX Asus Motherboard Socket 1150 - Z97-AR - Scan.co.uk
Intel Core i7-4790K Socket 1150 'Devils Canyon' (22nm) Quad Core Processor Retail with Heat Sink Fan - BX80646I74790K - Scan.co.uk
Corsair Memory Vengeance Pro Series Silver 16GB DDR3 1866 MHz Dual Channel Desktop - CMY16GX3M2A1866C9 - Scan.co.uk

Do those look ok? Total comes to around ?520

This mobo also caught my eye for only a few more pounds:

Asus SABERTOOTH Z97 MARK 2, Intel Z97, Socket 1150, Motherboard - Scan.co.uk



Ah I totally forgot to list my current rig :eck:

CPU: AMD 955
RAM: 4GB G Skill
GPU: EVGA GTX 780
PSU: XFX 750W
SSD: Samsung 840 EVO 250GB
HDD: 2x 1TB drives
Case: CM692

I often see the 4790K being recommended as the best Intel CPU for gamer PCs. It should last you a long time.
The 780 seems to be a bit overkill for your current rig^^ But it will do a great job in your new rig.

Have you considered AMD CPUs? Or do you really want to switch to Intel?
An FX-8350 paired with an 990FX mobo and 16GB RAM costs under 350GBP.
AMD FX-8350 - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom
I know, the FX-series is quite old but the CPUs still offer a great bang for the buck and are said to be easy to overclock with a massive increase in clockspeed.
Of course, they are most likely inferior to Intel CPUs in benchmarks (in some games Intel is better, in some others AMD is better).
You can watch JayzTwoCents' videos about AMD vs Intel (he switched from AMD to Intel and wasted a huge amount of money for almost zero increase in performance - unfortunately I can't find the video about it - , then he switched to X99), myths about Intel being so much better than AMD, and also about Intel vs AMD power consumption (how much an AMD system will really cost you more per year). https://www.youtube.com/user/Jayztwocents/search?query=intel+vs+amd

With the AMD-route you could easily get the CPU, mobo, RAM and still have enough left of your 500GBP budget for a nice, more efficient PSU ;-) (like a Corsair AX760i/AX860i - both are 80Plus Platinum certified -, and still be within your budget -> AMD FX-8350 - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom ).

But please do some research if AMD can really deliver the perfomance for your tasks! I probably have less knowledge (and certainly less experience) than many other people on the interwebz^^
90% of people in forums like linustechtips, tomshardware, teksyndicate, jayztwocents, etc. can give advice that is much more based on experience and knowledge than mine ;-)

Edit: HA! Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvLRZxRL8N8&list=PLOXo4ndvQK7-ZXn1HricYaaiogjT94XLw (it's a commentary, so just ignore the video^^)

 

[gedzum]

I often see the 4790K being recommended as the best Intel CPU for gamer PCs. It should last you a long time.
The 780 seems to be a bit overkill for your current rig^^ But it will do a great job in your new rig.

Have you considered AMD CPUs? Or do you really want to switch to Intel?
An FX-8350 paired with an 990FX mobo and 16GB RAM costs under 350GBP.
AMD FX-8350 - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom
I know, the FX-series is quite old but the CPUs still offer a great bang for the buck and are said to be easy to overclock with a massive increase in clockspeed.

With the AMD-route you could easily get the CPU, mobo, RAM and still have enough left of your 500GBP budget for a nice, more efficient PSU ;-) (like a Corsair AX760i/AX860i - both are 80Plus Platinum certified -, and still be within your budget -> AMD FX-8350 - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom ).

Yeah I picked up that 780 a while back when the price dropped and it came with some nice games I was interested in too so it seemed like a good value then. I actually intended to upgrade sooner but other things came up so I pushed it back. I've tried AMD and it's served me well, but I guess it's more about me being curious to try an Intel build this time around. But you your points are good and I hear you. Thanks for that video link too..glad you found it Makes very good points.

I've had my current build for quite a while and so I'll be looking for similar long term performance again and as you said, I feel I'll get good performance for the tasks I need in the relative long term. I may order the parts tonight or tomorrow. Looking forward to tinkering with the PC again. Thanks for all the info and links, really appreciate it mate. I'll post back if something comes to mind.

 

[QwarkDreams]

Yeah I picked up that 780 a while back when the price dropped and it came with some nice games I was interested in too so it seemed like a good value then. I actually intended to upgrade sooner but other things came up so I pushed it back. I've tried AMD and it's served me well, but I guess it's more about me being curious to try an Intel build this time around. But you your points are good and I hear you. Thanks for that video link too..glad you found it Makes very good points.

I've had my current build for quite a while and so I'll be looking for similar long term performance again and as you said, I feel I'll get good performance for the tasks I need in the relative long term. I may order the parts tonight or tomorrow. Looking forward to tinkering with the PC again. Thanks for all the info and links, really appreciate it mate. I'll post back if something comes to mind.

Yeah, the prices have been dropping quite a bit since the 970 and 980 came out. I can get a new 780 for as low as 300€ right now (although it's not a brand I've heard much about), and a Zotac 780 OC (+ game bundle) costs only ~325€ (and that's even from a big electronics store that's not really into PC parts anymore). But the lower power consumption and benchmarks would really suggest getting a 970 over a 780^^ AMD really needs to step up their game in order to be taken seriously as a competitor - for both nVidia and Intel.

Intel always looked a bit more "reliable" to me (regarding accuracy of the shown temps, stability, less power consumption, running cooler), while I considered AMD to be more for people who like to "tinker around" with their CPUs (like, overclocking as soon as it's on the mobo, much more heat output and power consumption for the sake of the highest possible/stable overclocks,...) but with a terrific price tag (I think Intel's top CPUs start at ~300€, while AMD's strongest CPUs don't even cost 300€ and give you 8x 4.7GHz out of the box). Same goes for AMD/ATI vs nVidia.
The difference in technology (Intel: lower power consumption and lower temperatures vs AMD: raw power, regardless the temps and power consumption) looks/feels more "advanced" to me and less "troublesome" (high temps = need for very good (expensive) cooling solutions, high power consumption = need for more expensive, efficient PSUs). And it's only natural for people feeling that there has to be a catch if both CPU brands offer great performance, but one is significantly cheaper.

JayzTwoCents is not the only one praising AMD CPUs and standing up against the exaggerated disadvantages. Logan from TekSyndicate likes AMD too (this might be a useful comparison -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgrAP2_GfOo , some nice productivity benchmarks).

Also, you should ask yourself: are ~200GBP more (PSU included) worth 1-2min less rendering time? Does it give you that much better performance to justify the price? Those minutes/seconds matter for professionals/companies, where it makes a huge difference when they can render more videos on a day.

If you still want to go the Intel route you could even consider an i5 4690K (here's some Benchmarks including 4790K and 4690K from Anandtech AnandTech | Devil?s Canyon Review: Intel Core i7-4790K and i5-4690K ).
Intel Core i5-4690K - System Build - PCPartPicker United Kingdom (config with your prefered RAM and the ASUS mobo) should save you about 50GBP. It depends on you if you're willing to spend that money on the i7 4790K.

It's a tough decision, but if you're undecisive and willing to wait a little longer you could consider waiting for Skylake coming out next year. (afaik 1150 mobos will not be compatibal to Skylake CPUs, because they introduce a new socket, 1151).
Although some people recommend to not wait because you'll never be able to plan that much ahead in terms of "getting the best system for 'futureproofing'".

 

[Muessig]

DAC/AMP combo

Have you considered getting an Objective 2 Dac/Amp from Mayflower Electronics? I just got one and its amazing!

 

[QwarkDreams]

Have you considered getting an Objective 2 Dac/Amp from Mayflower Electronics? I just got one and its amazing!

I know it and got it recommended a bunch of times on other forums but the thing is that they are located in the US and I'm in Europe. The Objective 2 costs already ~$240+ and I'm afraid there will be some import taxes added to it (along with the shipping). RMAs would be annoying too, I like to keep the places where I shop for electronics close to my location and shipping to a minimum.
But yes, that would most likely be the ideal solution for me. Maybe I'll get myself to order it in the future (that being when I have a new monitor, mouse, keyboard, GPU,....^^).

 

[Muessig]

I'm in the UK too and just got it shipped over. You do get customs charges, but the thing is hand made and the company have posted complete deconstruction videos on their site.

If you're really worried, though, you should look into a uk company called Epiphany Audio that do Objective 2 amp/dacs.

 

[QwarkDreams]

I'm in the UK too and just got it shipped over. You do get customs charges, but the thing is hand made and the company have posted complete deconstruction videos on their site.

If you're really worried, though, you should look into a uk company called Epiphany Audio that do Objective 2 amp/dacs.

It's not the companies who sell it I don't trust but the shipping companies. They're not very trustworthy here (multiple packages that obviously contained discs - DVDs, BRs, games - "disappeared", don't get notifications in my mailbox and stuff gets sent back, package-handling is terrible (getting dropped when there's obviously something fragile in it - like my X360 which got dropped right in front of me).
That's why I tend to order as little as possible and go to stores (even if that means paying a bit more).

 

[QwarkDreams]

In other news: I finally decided to purchase the first of my (too many) peripheral replacements and ordered the Dell UltraSharp U2414H today. Should arrive in 2 days from Amazon. I think that's going to be the 4th monitor I ever possessed in total (CRT, crappy 4:3 Gericom TFT, current Samsung SyncMaster P2250 1680x1050 LCD and the - eagerly awaited - Dell).
1080p.....I'm kinda late to the party but I'll finally be able to join it :-D

 

[QwarkDreams]

T-t-t-triple post! (not sure if this is a good thing^^)

Got the Dell U2414h yesterday and....well, I'm kinda torn on this one.

The image quality is outstanding! IPS all the way! This huge difference might be because my Samsung monitor was only a cheap-ish 1680x1050 TN panel. But the colors are so much better on the Dell, it's mindblowing for me.

The thing that damped the experience yesterday was that at first everything was awesome: unboxed it, put the stand on, plugged in all the cables (power, mini-Displayport-to-Displayport and the USB cable for the built-in USB hub), installed the drivers and it worked like a charm. Then, after a few hours, something went wrong. Suddenly my mouse wasn't responding well (at first I thought it might be the mousepad again, since it's already worn out, then I thought some dust was in the sensor which wasn't the case), then the mouse cursor stopped moving entirely and then nothing responded anymore. Tried to use the keyboard, didn't work. Wasn't able to go to the task manager. I pressed the reset button and I was greeted by the message "Energiesparen aktivieren" (which means "activate power saving"). Turned off the monitor, turned it back on, checked the cables, pressed the reset button again. Didn't work. Enabled Displayport 1.2 in the on-screen menu of the monitor. Didn't make a difference. Then I connected the monitor via HDMI and it suddenly kinda worked. "Kinda" because the scaling was messed up (there was a thick, black border around the screen). Got it working but HDMI on an IPS panel decreases the color range (and lets face it: the colors are the best thing about IPS panels). Switching back to mini-Displayport input (by selecting the input on the on-screen menu) only brought up the message from before (power saving blahblah) while all other options (regular Displayport and the second HDMI) just showed "no cable detected". Googled the problem, only "useful" information I got was that some U2414H monitors have issues with Displayport (detecting it) and that the mini-Displayport-to-Displayport cable that came with the monitor (which is the only video-cable you get in the box) ain't the best. Decided to order a new one (but the variety of Displayport cables ain't the best) and went to bed.

Got up in the morning, turned on the PC and was greeted with a simple blue screen (no text on it and not the same shade of blue of the infamous bluescreen). Changed the input from HDMI to mini-Displayport (still the same blue screen) and suddenly it booted normal again. Now mini-Displayport suddenly works again.
I hope this russion roulette thing with the cables doesn't turn into a regular thing. If that's the case I have to send it back and decide on a different monitor which is kinda sad because the image quality is amazing.

I'll keep you guys updated if anything like this happens again. Unfortunately there ain't much information about issues like mine on the web.

Update: Today I was having issues with severe lag. It wasn't exclusive to certain programs but it first appeared when I was using Firefox with multiple tabs open, so I thought it was Adobe Flash acting up (wouldn't have been the first time for it being the reason for problems). When I managed to close Firefox (which wasn't that easy because it kept lagging pretty bad) the lags didn't stop.
Long story short: the Dell Display Management (DDM) application was causing the problem. It showed that I should connect a supported monitor but I was already using the Dell U2414H. I uninstalled it and - tada - the problem was gone. Seems like there is a certain version of DDM that is pretty buggy. The only purpose of the application is to manage how windows are displayed (no preferance, full window, half screen, different ratios,...) and how it acts in different software (Firefox, Office, etc.). Not much of a loss of features.

The strange thing was that it was even interfering before the I got a post, which shouldn't be possible since it should need to boot the OS first because without OS it can't really be started).

 

[gedzum]

Sorry to hear you are experiencing a few problems with your monitor. Hope you figure it out soon.

 

[QwarkDreams]

Sorry to hear you are experiencing a few problems with your monitor. Hope you figure it out soon.

Thanks.
It looks A LOT like the reason for that problem was a well stired mixture of my "pffff, I know how to set up a monitor and install drivers, I don't need no stinkin's manual" overestimate of my tech-cleverness and a little sentence in a manual you have to ******* download because Dell is too cheap to include it in the package (come on, Dell, really?).

Summary: DDM does not work and will **** up if DP1.2 is enabled.

Now everything works fine. I disabled DP1.2 in the OSD menu and even installed DDM again....no issues whatsoever.

 

[QwarkDreams]

Little question for you guys who are using the Intel stock cooler and maybe even an ASRock mobo: how high do your stock cooler go regarding RPMs when gaming? I'm asking because a) it seems that my mobo (ASRock H87 Pro4) does not regulate my 3pin fans at all (I actually got this confirmed by ASRock support, only 4pin fans will be regulated. 3pin fans will always spin at the max RPM on this mobo) and b) my Intel stock cooler ramps up to 2000rpm when the CPU is under load and is getting pretty loud. The min RPM is also ~1600 when idle. Looks like I'll be getting an aftermarket cpu cooler but I wanted to see if this is normal behaviour for stock coolers.

 

[Keith Wallace]

What are you using to track fan speed? I have nothing to do that. I don't game heavily, but I'm running a stock-cooled 4670K with an ASRock Extreme 4 myself, and I don't notice excessive fan noise ever. Like I said, I don't track fan speed though. If you have some software you use that's free, I could DL it and play a few games and report back.

 

[QwarkDreams]

What are you using to track fan speed? I have nothing to do that. I don't game heavily, but I'm running a stock-cooled 4670K with an ASRock Extreme 4 myself, and I don't notice excessive fan noise ever. Like I said, I don't track fan speed though. If you have some software you use that's free, I could DL it and play a few games and report back.

I use CPUID HWMonitor and ASRock's Fan-tastic Tuning (included in their A-Tuning Suite). But it looks like either ASRock has no clue about fan control (since they can't even manage to control 3pin fans via voltage) or the fan control on my mobo is broken. Or the CPU fan is broken....

In this picture you can see that the CPU fan is supposed to only ramp up to 50-60% (= ~1350-1450RPM) when the CPU temps reach 60?C but that's not the case. I get 100% and more (a little over 2000RPM) even when the max temps are at 50?C. Right now while I'm typing (and in the picture) the RPM are correct and behave according to the chart.

I already checked all the cables but they were already connected correctly.