So, who's gonna get a Surface Pro 3?

[xchange]

Nope. Laptops and these tablet-esque devices are not being built to last years anymore. I stick to my trusty desktop for when PC tasks are required and cheap $300 tablets for portable stuff. I like the ability to swap out one faulty component on my desktop rather than having to warranty and/or replace an entire device. More expensive portable devices are a model that's advantageous to the manufacturer, not me. I'm also not going to lug around all my paper documents and my printer with me everywhere I go around my house. That's what a desk is for, so I might as well have a computer on it

 

[EwingMCSE]

If my SP2 wasn't working so well I'd consider getting a SP3, but I can't justify the cost while my existing machine is meeting all of my needs. My work laptop is a dusty relic that I never even power on anymore. SP2 has made me the BYOD guy in my department.

 

[anon(5445874)]

I think the Surface Pro 3 (and beyond) is going to change the way we work and live our lives. With the docking station and 4k monitor, even a heavy PC user wouldn't need an actual desktop. And it'll be way better than hauling around a heavy laptop and a tablet. Back when I had a regular desk job, I would often do all my work on it instead of using the company computer. It's just so handy to have that one device that does it all. Too bad there wasn't a way to merge phone capability into it. Just a thought here... But if you had a Bluetooth earpiece and combined that with a smartwatch, they both connect to a Surface, would you still need an actual phone? (as much as I would hate not having my WP!) But really, that might be all a person needs.

 

[Reflexx]

Yeah just like for "audiophiles" mp3 doesn't cut it they would tell you, they can so hear the night and day difference - until they are subjected to a properly done double blind test where 99% of the time they actually fail to tell the difference between mp3 and lossless. Placebo and confirmation bias is a strong effect, just the word "lossy" vs "lossless" are enough to deceive "audiophiles" to think that mp3 are just going to be inferior. For something like sensing 256 levels of pressure vs 1024 levels of pressure in a pixel? Let's say I'm going to be skeptical about such claims of night and day difference too. I'd like to see a double blind test done on these digitizers, Myth Buster style for bonus points, so this whole "OMG not Wacom deal killer!!!!111" can be put to rest.

Well, I'm an artist and I can tell the difference between Wacoms that have 256 and 1024.

That's not to say that N-trig is the same. But their old stuff wasn't that hot.

The new stuff... well, maybe it's pretty good.

As for comparing artists and audiophiles... well, are you just talking about enthusiasts or professionals? I'm pretty sure that professionals would be able to tell the difference.

 

[xboxonthego3]

Lol responded to this thread earlier. I didn't considering getting this because I just bought a Yoga 2 Pro about 2 months ago. If everything pans out ill be selling the Yoga and getting the surface pro I have always wanted!!

 

[Reflexx]

My wife won't allow me to get this. Some weird excuse about "money"... whatever that means.

She thinks that our Surface RT, Surface Pro, Windows 8 desktop, Windows 8 laptop, Windows 7 laptop, Windows 8 Sony VAIO giant "tablet", 2 Dell Venue 8 Pros, and Windows 7 netbook are "enough".

She just doesn't understand....

 

[sr!]

Just completed my pre-order. wanted to wait for i7, but that would take too long. So went with i5, 256gb. Can't wait.

 

[anon(5445874)]

Just completed my pre-order. wanted to wait for i7, but that would take too long. So went with i5, 256gb. Can't wait.

i5 is fast enough. might be better on battery life anyway.

 

[rabit1]

As soon as they bundle the keyboard...

 

[houkoholic]

Well, I'm an artist and I can tell the difference between Wacoms that have 256 and 1024.

That's not to say that N-trig is the same. But their old stuff wasn't that hot.

The new stuff... well, maybe it's pretty good.

As for comparing artists and audiophiles... well, are you just talking about enthusiasts or professionals? I'm pretty sure that professionals would be able to tell the difference.

Actually professionals can't either when it is a proper double blind test (not just looking at the thing, being told that they are doing a test between lossy/lossless then swap between - that is not a double blind test). A proper scientific test also shows that professionals and musiians couldn't tell the difference between SACD/DVD-Audio to plain old CD, which those formats was supposed to beat the pants off CDs (and by extension a high quality mp3 made from the same source, freed from horrible after-processing, is almost identical to CDs, so think about what this is implying). That's why I made the comparison and wants a properly conducted test instead of relying on old preception and supposedly "common concenses" that N-trig is inferior by default.

 

[sr!]

Hope so. From Daniel's hands on video, it looked like it was fast enough. hoping to laod some trading software and such. trading charts are usually resource hogging. Time will tell how it performs. keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[anon(5445874)]

I'm getting tired of hearing about these so called 'artists' trying to say they need a thousand points of pressure on a 12 inch screen. The fact is you do not, at least for most things. And seriously, that's only if your are using a huge brush but at that point you might as well just be doing it in vector. For common painting or drawing, 256 is more than enough. Maybe we should start checking people's 'artist' cards at the door.

 

[ExTrAbUtTa]

I'm definitely in the building at my local Microsoft Store, the MOMENT these are available. No questions. My wife is game for her i3 model and I'll be waiting for an i7 model (still deciding on whether to get 256Gb or 512GB). We currently have a Dell Venue Pro 8, SP1/2, Surface 2, Samsung laptop (a power PC), ChromeBook (it was given to use and continually collects dust.. lol), however I'll most likely sell off a few items. Usually, that helps her agree to this non-essential purchases. Lol. That and my ability to get her excited about the device (then she can't say "No!"). Plus, this is the cheapest "hobby", you could say, I have. The parts I buy for my car are in another arena all together (built motors, big turbos, wider wheels, etc.), that hobby usually results in me breaking something at an autocross and it costing a lot (which usually results in a car sitting in the driveway for a couple months). Anyways, I can't wait to have the SP3 in my hands.

 

[Reflexx]

I'm getting tired of hearing about these so called 'artists' trying to say they need a thousand points of pressure on a 12 inch screen. The fact is you do not, at least for most things. And seriously, that's only if your are using a huge brush but at that point you might as well just be doing it in vector. For common painting or drawing, 256 is more than enough. Maybe we should start checking people's 'artist' cards at the door.

"So called artists"?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many of us do this for a living. It's our livelihood. There's nothing "so called" about it.

Is it very possible that the N-trig sensitivity curve is done in such a way that it's good enough for professional work? Sure it is.

But in the past it hasn't been. That's why artists are taking a "wait and see" approach. It's prudent based on past performance.

Maybe technically 256 points should be enough. But you don't take those 256 points an an even curve. At what level of pressure does it start? At what level of pressure is the maximum? Is it a natural level of pressure? At what point in the curve does it more sensitive? At what points in the curve is it less sensitive?

Also take into consideration that we're dealing with more than just line width. There's also opacity.

With 1024 levels, the customizations are easier per artist. I can set a different curve than someone else. At 256, there's less to work with.

Maybe you need to check your "I think I know what I'm talking about" card at the door.

...

Sorry if I sound annoyed; but I took offense to that "so called artist" comment.

 

[anon(5445874)]

"So called artists"?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many of us do this for a living. It's our livelihood. There's nothing "so called" about it.

Is it very possible that the N-trig sensitivity curve is done in such a way that it's good enough for professional work? Sure it is.

But in the past it hasn't been. That's why artists are taking a "wait and see" approach. It's prudent based on past performance.

Maybe technically 256 points should be enough. But you don't take those 256 points an an even curve. At what level of pressure does it start? At what level of pressure is the maximum? Is it a natural level of pressure? At what point in the curve does it more sensitive? At what points in the curve is it less sensitive?

Also take into consideration that we're dealing with more than just line width. There's also opacity.

With 1024 levels, the customizations are easier per artist. I can set a different curve than someone else. At 256, there's less to work with.

Maybe you need to check your "I think I know what I'm talking about" card at the door.

...

Sorry if I sound annoyed; but I took offense to that "so called artist" comment.

I wasn't necessarily talking about one person or another. You might be an artist and so am I, well I mostly do other creative things, but I do a lot with digital pens and such. But you have to understand that message boards in general are faceless people who often claim to be who they are not. I've been around on the internet for a while to know that people are often not who they claim to be. And the fact that people are making all kinds of claims on a product they've never used is nonsense.

 

[Reflexx]

I wasn't necessarily talking about one person or another. You might be an artist and so am I, well I mostly do other creative things, but I do a lot with digital pens and such. But you have to understand that message boards in general are faceless people who often claim to be who they are not. I've been around on the internet for a while to know that people are often not who they claim to be. And the fact that people are making all kinds of claims on a product they've never used is nonsense.

What claims are people here making about the product?

Most of us are taking a wait and see approach. We base our current cautious attitude on past performance and experience.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But you are here making assumptions about people you've never met. You state a dubious "fact" to these people in an insulting way.

 

[houkoholic]

"So called artists"?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many of us do this for a living. It's our livelihood. There's nothing "so called" about it.

Careful there, what you are doing here is what is called "argument from authority". ie because I use these tools for a living I know more about it than you. This is infact not true. Again refer to my professional/musician example above. Just because musicians and mixing engineers does many things with music, it doesn't give them expertise in music algorithum, or even straight biology (biology gives us understanding of our hearing limits). So even if a musician, by his profession and how he "makes a living" from music, can claim that he can hear 100kHz, every person can pretty much call out on this as BS because it is bioloigically impossible for a human to do so thus we don't have to automatically give respect to his claims. Ergo, just because artists claims they can tell the different pressure levels because "they know it", we can still be skeptical and call them out to show us the evidence or hold it until they try it.

But in the past it hasn't been. That's why artists are taking a "wait and see" approach. It's prudent based on past performance.

The problem is most of these self-proclaimed artist aren't being this reasonable (refer to many threads all over the internet, even on this very board, about how N-trig is automatic deal breaker), its the artists whom are giving themselves a bad rep here due to the big whining they are doing now.

 

[Reflexx]

Careful there, what you are doing here is what is called "argument from authority". ie because I use these tools for a living I know more about it than you. This is infact not true.

"Argument from authority" is when you claim someone's else's authority and use it for your argument.

"Joe Shmoe likes this product, therefore is must be good."

The fact is that people who do something for a living will generally know more about the needs of that job than people who don't.

Or do you think that there is no knowledge gained from experience?

Again refer to my professional/musician example above. Just because musicians and mixing engineers does many things with music, it doesn't give them expertise in music algorithum, or even straight biology (biology gives us understanding of our hearing limits). So even if a musician, by his profession and how he "makes a living" from music, can claim that he can hear 100kHz, every person can pretty much call out on this as BS because it is bioloigically impossible for a human to do so thus we don't have to automatically give respect to his claims. Ergo, just because artists claims they can tell the different pressure levels because "they know it", we can still be skeptical and call them out to show us the evidence or hold it until they try it.

Wait... so it's okay for you to call BS on professional artists, but there's somehow something wrong with artists being skeptical about claims of commercial product?

But it's somehow okay to be totally sold on the marketing and not be skeptical of the product.

So, one group needs to use it in order to have any reservations... but the other group doesn't need to use it to sing its praises.

The problem is most of these self-proclaimed artist aren't being this reasonable (refer to many threads all over the internet,

Should I lump you guys in with other people "all over the internet" too? Are you all one homogenous group?

even on this very board, about how N-trig is automatic deal breaker), its the artists whom are giving themselves a bad rep here due to the big whining they are doing now.

So, if a few artists take a hard stance, it's suddenly "the artists" or "so called artists" that get called out as a general group instead of specifically calling out individuals?

Good job there...

 

[anon(5445874)]

So, if a few artists take a hard stance, it's suddenly "the artists" or "so called artists" that get called out as a general group instead of specifically calling out individuals?

I think you are missing the point. People on this forum are saying that the Surface Pro 3 is a no deal because of N-Trig. And they are telling us that the reason their opinion is fact is because they are an artist, and therefor should be considered the ultimate authority in the discussion. But myself and many other artists who actually look at the facts realize that the N-trig tech is actually just as good, if not better than the Wacom tech. I actually draw and paint on the SP2 and it's great, but the tech falls to pieces on the edges of the machine. I shouldn't have to zoom or pan my painting just because i'm near the edge. Even in the middle of the screen, it's not 100% accurate.

 

[houkoholic]

"Argument from authority" is when you claim someone's else's authority and use it for your argument.

"Joe Shmoe likes this product, therefore is must be good."

No, argument from authority also applies to one claiming to be an expert on the subject matter and thus their opinion should be taken as factually correct.

From Wiki definition:
The argument from authority can take several forms. As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:

A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.

Artists says that N-trig sucks.
Artists should be trusted on subject matter related to digital art.
Therefore, Artists are correct to say N-trig sucks.

This is classic argument from authority.

The fact is that people who do something for a living will generally know more about the needs of that job than people who don't.

This is completely false. Again see my musician example regarding music compression or human biology of hearing. Even a person using tools of trade everyday may not know how their tools work. A digital artist may be using their Wacom digitizers everyday, but damn if they know how the actual electronics is calculating the cursor position or the pressure applied is communicated via the driver and API level better than the engineers who made and programmed it, in fact I would bet they won't know anything about it.

Or do you think that there is no knowledge gained from experience?

Only of subject matter of actual relevance. Just like I wouldn't put much trust a musician to tell me about how human ear evolution works or how signal processing works, I also don't automatically put faith in the artists telling me that they can "feel" the difference in 256 levels vs 1024 levels of very small pressure exerted on a tiny pixel because I know humans are actually very much prone to bias and errors and our senses are easily fooled by all sorts of tricks or even emotional state of mind.
Matters which I would automatically have more trust an artist on? Things such as colour coordination, how to draw anatomically correct human prosture, that sort of thing. But hell I would automatically listen to artists tell me about how they can feel the "wrongs" of electronics (I'm an engineer BTW, but then I would be arguing from authority too)

Wait... so it's okay for you to call BS on professional artists, but there's somehow something wrong with artists being skeptical about claims of commercial product?

I don't mind if they are actually skeptical, but that is not what's happening. Go to this forum and look for the thread titled "N-triq over Wacom kills the Pro 3 for me. " Is that someone expressing skepticism? NO. He made the conclusion before having hands-on experience. And there are many of these people in EVERY SINGLE Surface thread all over the internet. We are calling out these people for being unreasonable.

But it's somehow okay to be totally sold on the marketing and not be skeptical of the product.

Again, they are not being skeptical when they flat out declare it DOA simply because it is N-trig.

Should I lump you guys in with other people "all over the internet" too? Are you all one homogenous group?

And what group would we be in?

So, if a few artists take a hard stance, it's suddenly "the artists" or "so called artists" that get called out as a general group instead of specifically calling out individuals?

Good job there...

Again, the few but also extremely vocal ones are giving the reasonable ones a bad image. You can't fault people for thinking artists are being unreasonable when the reasonable ones refuse to speak out and let the vocal ones speak so loudly and so unreasonably about something they haven't even tried by already pronounced DOA.