Universal apps are failing

[ntice_521]

Patch things up with Google and develop world-class native client apps that access Google services. Don't rely on Google to do it. They have their own thing going with Android and besides nobody knows the Modern UI paradigm better than MS.

Before doing that, they should develop "world class" apps for their own services. Why does Windows Phone have the worst Skype app, for example?

 

[tangledW]

"Universal apps are failing"

You know, those Universal apps for the Windows 10 mobile update that has been out for 2 weeks on 2 phones and on the new Xbox OS for a couple of weeks. Ridiculous.

Do I think Universal are a magic bullet? Absolutely not, I mean it could be with time & support, but I don't see it happening. However, let's give them time to actually be born before we pronounce their life as a failure

 

[b-funny]

Universal App are the biggest news of the last few months!

 

[tgp]

With a billion devices - any developer ignoring universal apps at that point would not be very bright.

What's a billion? More than one billion Android devices will sell in 2015 alone (probably already did, but Q4 2015 isn't yet reported).

 

[rhapdog]

What's a billion? More than one billion Android devices will sell in 2015 alone (probably already did, but Q4 2015 isn't yet reported).

Well, no one said that developers would ignore Android to develop for the UWP. As long as Android holds a decent market share, and they are far from losing it at this point, a developer would be self-loathing to ignore Android. However, Windows 10 having a billion devices can garner a lot more attention than the paltry market share that is currently held. iOS didn't hit a billion devices sold until 2015, yet had a large enough market share to command a lot of attention. When (yes, I say when, because I believe it will) Windows 10 hits a billion devices, it will garner more attention. It has already started getting the attention, which will only grow.

 

[tgp]

Well, no one said that developers would ignore Android to develop for the UWP. As long as Android holds a decent market share, and they are far from losing it at this point, a developer would be self-loathing to ignore Android. However, Windows 10 having a billion devices can garner a lot more attention than the paltry market share that is currently held. iOS didn't hit a billion devices sold until 2015, yet had a large enough market share to command a lot of attention. When (yes, I say when, because I believe it will) Windows 10 hits a billion devices, it will garner more attention. It has already started getting the attention, which will only grow.

You completely missed my point. What I meant was that 1 billion is not some magical, astronomical number. How significant is 1 billion users? Sure, the number has a lot of zeros, but what does it mean?

How will the developers respond? Sure, take 1 billion W10M devices, and they'd be all over it. Or take 1 billion devices running W10 desktop, and they might be all over it (for sure if x86 apps would no longer be an option). But divide 1 billion up among desktop (with some of them in tablet form), mobile, xBox, and IoT devices. How do the developers respond then?

All we can do is wait and see.

 

[ajayden]

Context is important. Yeah, you did that and it's great, but that doesn't actually do anything for the lack of apps on Windows. The problem that Universal apps need to solve as pointed out by Ballmer and others is getting missing apps that people need onto the platform.

Like I said earlier, if we saw something like Snapchat (not even important for me personally, but it's a huge symbol), Starbucks, Google apps, etc... then I'd say that wow, the Universal app strategy to get apps on phone might have a chance. Right now, all we're seeing is apps like yours - developers who are already developing on Windows putting out W10 Universal apps. Again, great, but how does that fix any of W10M's problems?

First of all Balmer is a loser who did not do anything but marketing gimmicks during his tenure.

Next, I would like put back the question to you. If what you say is right, then based on your analysis what is your suggestion for Microsoft?

Snapchat is a huge symbol?? for what??

Google apps are not on windows because google does not want them to be there. They know that once Google apps come on windows phone, most of the users will move away from them. Google is scared even though they command higher market share.

Next I would also like to bring to everyone's attention :

Having 1 Billion or more apps does not mean that they have quality. What is the point of having a 1000 selfie apps and no one even rate it in the store. That shows the quality control of the OS.

On Windows, Most of the tasks are neatly done by the apps provided by the OS and you don't need another set of 1000 apps to do one task.

These are my observations being a developer on all the three OS. Everybody else's view might vary.

 

[jhoff80]

First of all Balmer is a loser who did not do anything but marketing gimmicks during his tenure.

This alone pretty much discounts everything you say, but for the hell of it...

Next, I would like put back the question to you. If what you say is right, then based on your analysis what is your suggestion for Microsoft?

There's no easy solution. There's not really much they can do about it. Obviously they have to keep trying, but there's nothing that will magically fix all their woes. Android apps on W10M had the best shot, in my opinion. If they did 99% of the work for the developer like the goal of Astoria was to do, then maybe the developers would put in that last 1% of the effort to get an app on the store. Otherwise, I just don't see much changing no matter what Microsoft does.

Snapchat is a huge symbol?? for what??

It's a symbol because it's a hugely popular app (despite claims to the contrary on this site, it's used for far more than teenage sexting - at over 100 million active users daily, it's far larger than Windows 10 Mobile) from a startup that couldn't care less about Microsoft. There's a ton of other startups that have the exact same sentiment, and unfortunately, it's not going to be easy to change their minds. It's doubtful that any hot new service, device, app, game, etc. is going to come to Windows. Still, getting something like Snapchat would be a sign that the attitude is changing.

Google apps are not on windows because google does not want them to be there. They know that once Google apps come on windows phone, most of the users will move away from them. Google is scared even though they command higher market share.

Sure, Google doesn't want to bother with Windows as a platform. And of course, why should they help out a struggling competitor? But seriously? Most of their users are automatically going to change operating systems and throw away the entire way they interact with their phone (as well as all of the content they've purchased over the years) just because Google puts out a couple apps for the competition? Sounds like a fantasy world.

Having 1 Billion or more apps does not mean that they have quality. What is the point of having a 1000 selfie apps and no one even rate it in the store. That shows the quality control of the OS.

Not a single person is saying that we need a billion apps. It'd be nice to have an app for my bank and my credit card though. And the airlines I use. And the coffee shop I go to. And the streaming service I use. And the eBook service I use. And the smarthome hardware I'd like to use. And the dating services I use. And the social networks I use. And for some people the smartwatches they might want to use. And the cars they want to use. And so on and so forth. Reducing this argument to a quality versus quantity thing is just wrong.

On Windows, Most of the tasks are neatly done by the apps provided by the OS and you don't need another set of 1000 apps to do one task.

See above. The stuff that's missing and is hugely important is not being provided by the OS. Now again, I would absolutely love Universal apps to change this. I would love Windows 10 Mobile to grow into an actual competitor to the other two platforms in terms of market share. But there's very little reason to think anything is changing. As I said already, it's great we're seeing a ton of Windows 8/WP8 apps updated to Universal apps... but there's been nothing yet that demonstrates the 'app gap' issue is changing. We'll have to see new-to-the-platform apps before there's any evidence that this Universal app strategy has made any difference whatsoever.

 

[tushar_kp]

The APIs are different and now universal apps share around 90% of code..so it is much more easier than it used to be on WP8.1..

 

[rhapdog]

You completely missed my point. What I meant was that 1 billion is not some magical, astronomical number. How significant is 1 billion users? Sure, the number has a lot of zeros, but what does it mean?

How will the developers respond? Sure, take 1 billion W10M devices, and they'd be all over it. Or take 1 billion devices running W10 desktop, and they might be all over it (for sure if x86 apps would no longer be an option). But divide 1 billion up among desktop (with some of them in tablet form), mobile, xBox, and IoT devices. How do the developers respond then?

All we can do is wait and see.

No, I didn't miss your point, tgp, really. I just didn't understand why you think 1 billion users wouldn't make much of a difference. I don't think you understand the details of programming for the Universal Windows Platform. I was a developer for many years before I retired. If I was still in the business, I'd be jumping all over this as fast as I could. I've been tempted to come out of retirement just to get in early and establish a unique app at the top of the new system, but my family is more important than money at this point, and we have enough.

That's all I've got for you, tgp.

For everyone else that thinks the Universal Windows Platform has already failed, read on. I've got some more rant.

How significant is 1 billion users? How significant is it for Android? How significant is it for Apple? While Apple has sold over a billion devices, that is since the very first iPhone, and it doesn't have near a billion users active. Android has a billion active users, maybe. It's up for debate. I've heard people say Android has reached a billion active users, and they may have. I just haven't read the official report showing the actual numbers. A report in December 2013 showed at that time there were 300 million active users of iPhone and 800 million active users of Android.

1 billion is 1/7th of the world's population. Yes, it is divided up between desktop, tablet, mobile, Xbox, and IoT, but they only have to write for the Universal Windows Platform, and they can target the entire 1 billion potential. Now, for the first time, an Android developer outfit can ADD an extra billion possible users by adding one additional platform to develop for. As a developer, it would make me salivate.

The thing is that Android's store has enough of a user base to make developers sit up and take notice. The Windows Store, as One store, will do the same. Some developers are already starting to take notice, and we are getting the universal apps coming in. I believe the rate will pick up as the Windows 10 adoption numbers rise.

Right now, for Android or iPhone, or even Windows Phone, the only way to increase their numbers is to get more people in the world to adopt using a phone. This is difficult to do in developing countries where the cost of the service is more of an issue than even the cost of the device, though the cost of the device plays a major role as well.

However, Microsoft has found a way to increase those numbers without increasing their phone market share. A brilliant move, I believe.

All I'm saying is, as new as the Universal Windows Apps for Windows 10 is, it can not be said to either be succeeding OR failing at this point. Android took a bit of time before it took off and got the apps. iOS didn't have the apps in the first 6 months either. Windows 10 is an entirely new player on the market, and the store thus far is much more successful than the Windows 8 store was during the last several years, and it's only 6 months old, and Mobile really hasn't gotten off the ground yet in any meaningful manner. Let's get official roll-outs to existing phones and more new phones from different manufacturers released and we'll see where that goes.

 

[tgp]

All I'm saying is, as new as the Universal Windows Apps for Windows 10 is, it can not be said to either be succeeding OR failing at this point. Android took a bit of time before it took off and got the apps. iOS didn't have the apps in the first 6 months either. Windows 10 is an entirely new player on the market, and the store thus far is much more successful than the Windows 8 store was during the last several years, and it's only 6 months old, and Mobile really hasn't gotten off the ground yet in any meaningful manner. Let's get official roll-outs to existing phones and more new phones from different manufacturers released and we'll see where that goes.

You may be correct. Who knows?

Bookmark this line: at the end of 2016 (one year from now), we're going to have Microsoft apologists saying, "Soon! Soon, it will take off! Soon, devices running Windows, specifically mobile, will be all over the place! Developers will be all over Windows! Coming soon™!"

And you know what? One of these days it will probably be correct! We've been shouting this for the last five years, and we will continue to do so. When you shoot at a target blindfolded, chances are you will eventually hit it, given enough time and ammo.

 

[rhapdog]

You may be correct. Who knows?

Bookmark this line: at the end of 2016 (one year from now), we're going to have Microsoft apologists saying, "Soon! Soon, it will take off! Soon, devices running Windows, specifically mobile, will be all over the place! Developers will be all over Windows! Coming soon™!"

And you know what? One of these days it will probably be correct! We've been shouting this for the last five years, and we will continue to do so. When you shoot at a target blindfolded, chances are you will eventually hit it, given enough time and ammo.

You've seen me post it several times, I know. I believe it will take several years before Universal Windows Apps get to where they need to be. I do believe they will get there, but people claiming failure after 5 months PC release and before a mobile release (when this thread was started on December 2) is just incorrect, and possibly just wishful thinking by Apple and Google.

I like your target analogy. I'm going to add to it just a bit. The thing is, Microsoft has an abundance of "time and ammo" and can continue shooting at this target for the next 10 years without running out of either. Since they are determined, the more they shoot, the more they learn HOW to shoot and how to properly aim their weapon. Yeah, there's been a few times that they decided they were using the wrong gun and changed their weapon of choice, PPC 2000-2003, WM5, WP7, WP8(.1), and now W10M, but it looks like they've gotten entrenched rather well with all their weight behind the Windows 10. Imagine if you will, going from a pea shooter, to a derringer, to a BB gun, to a shot gun, to a nice long range rifle. Well, they've settled on the long range rifle for the mobile, but at the same time they are shooting a bazooka (tablet) and firing ballistic missiles (PC) along with throwing hand grenades (Xbox) and getting some new ammo ready, like an Uzi (HoloLens), and more (SurfaceHub, IoT, etc.) and they are shooting EVERYTHING at ONCE at the target. With some of the firepower at hand, they only need to get close to the target, not hit it, in order to obliterate it.

Does that mean they are going about it right? Hey, I don't know. But I know it's going to be hard for Microsoft to fall over, and I'd hate to be the one being the target. While the target is standing there laughing, it is in very real danger as the blindfolded tank driver begins to errantly drive right over it, because the target wasn't moving fast enough to get out of the way.

 

[tgp]

Imagine if you will, going from a pea shooter, to a derringer, to a BB gun, to a shot gun, to a nice long range rifle. Well, they've settled on the long range rifle for the mobile, but at the same time they are shooting a bazooka (tablet) and firing ballistic missiles (PC) along with throwing hand grenades (Xbox) and getting some new ammo ready, like an Uzi (HoloLens), and more (SurfaceHub, IoT, etc.) and they are shooting EVERYTHING at ONCE at the target. With some of the firepower at hand, they only need to get close to the target, not hit it, in order to obliterate it.

Hey don't overanalyze my analagy! :wink: But to add to yours, so far Microsoft's weapons have been more like Iraq's Scud missiles in the first Gulf War. Remember those? They tended to miss the target by about 3 countries.

 

[Nogitsune Micah]

Lol even going into 2016, people still flame and troll with windows. Considering the OS is it infancy, I am not sure how it failed.

 

[colinkiama]

Pretty sure we universal apps haven't failed. It's only been 1 month since mobile has officially released.

 

[rhapdog]

Hey don't overanalyze my analagy! :wink: But to add to yours, so far Microsoft's weapons have been more like Iraq's Scud missiles in the first Gulf War. Remember those? They tended to miss the target by about 3 countries.

LOL, yeah, they also had a very short range. Seems a lot of MS services have been too concentrated on US only or not far from that.

But for now, MS isn't even fighting. They are retrenching and arming themselves. Let's just hope they don't blow up the planet when they come back out. Or, metaphorically, perhaps that would be a good thing?

Happy New Year!

 

[dkediger]

"Ready - Fire - Aim" is an effective management strategy if you have a general target and a robust iterative feedback process.

Posted via the Windows Central App for Android

 

[rhapdog]

"Ready - Fire - Aim" is an effective management strategy if you have a general target and a robust iterative feedback process.

Posted via the Windows Central App for Android

Microsoft currently had the best feedback process in the biz.

 

[BBJonbo]

The fact Ballmer doesn't think it will be successful brings me hope

+1M. Steve's opinion holds no merit. He would still be CEO if he had the correct vision and leadership. His opinion is right up there with The Verge which both are totally useless.

 

[BBJonbo]

No, I didn't miss your point, tgp, really. I just didn't understand why you think 1 billion users wouldn't make much of a difference. I don't think you understand the details of programming for the Universal Windows Platform. I was a developer for many years before I retired. If I was still in the business, I'd be jumping all over this as fast as I could. I've been tempted to come out of retirement just to get in early and establish a unique app at the top of the new system, but my family is more important than money at this point, and we have enough.

That's all I've got for you, tgp.

For everyone else that thinks the Universal Windows Platform has already failed, read on. I've got some more rant.

How significant is 1 billion users? How significant is it for Android? How significant is it for Apple? While Apple has sold over a billion devices, that is since the very first iPhone, and it doesn't have near a billion users active. Android has a billion active users, maybe. It's up for debate. I've heard people say Android has reached a billion active users, and they may have. I just haven't read the official report showing the actual numbers. A report in December 2013 showed at that time there were 300 million active users of iPhone and 800 million active users of Android.

1 billion is 1/7th of the world's population. Yes, it is divided up between desktop, tablet, mobile, Xbox, and IoT, but they only have to write for the Universal Windows Platform, and they can target the entire 1 billion potential. Now, for the first time, an Android developer outfit can ADD an extra billion possible users by adding one additional platform to develop for. As a developer, it would make me salivate.

The thing is that Android's store has enough of a user base to make developers sit up and take notice. The Windows Store, as One store, will do the same. Some developers are already starting to take notice, and we are getting the universal apps coming in. I believe the rate will pick up as the Windows 10 adoption numbers rise.

Right now, for Android or iPhone, or even Windows Phone, the only way to increase their numbers is to get more people in the world to adopt using a phone. This is difficult to do in developing countries where the cost of the service is more of an issue than even the cost of the device, though the cost of the device plays a major role as well.

However, Microsoft has found a way to increase those numbers without increasing their phone market share. A brilliant move, I believe.

All I'm saying is, as new as the Universal Windows Apps for Windows 10 is, it can not be said to either be succeeding OR failing at this point. Android took a bit of time before it took off and got the apps. iOS didn't have the apps in the first 6 months either. Windows 10 is an entirely new player on the market, and the store thus far is much more successful than the Windows 8 store was during the last several years, and it's only 6 months old, and Mobile really hasn't gotten off the ground yet in any meaningful manner. Let's get official roll-outs to existing phones and more new phones from different manufacturers released and we'll see where that goes.

Well said and totally agree.