Why WP7 could still fail.

[N8ter]

Apple got a pass on missing features for years. What do they do? Bake cookies?

Android was missing some features through I think Froyo? What does Google do? Spreadsheets? They aren't poor either.

Apple was new to the smartphone market. The first iPhone was a true 1.0 product. WP7 wasn't. Microsoft and RIM had years of headstart on Apple, so naturally WP7's limitations incited more boggled minds than Apple's missing features. Palm was similar to Microsoft/RIM, except they were much smaller and bordering on bankrupcy so you could sort of understand where rushing the product to market was necessary just to keep the business afloat.

FroYo was released in Mid-2010. Two years later you're trying to bash Eclair for missing features? Really Eclaire wasn't missing many features. You're thinking back to before eclair when Android was missing stuff like Multi-Touch Support, and things like that. So more than 2 years.

Please explain to readers why what Android and iOS was like in 2007/8/9 matters in 2012 when WP7 has to compete with Android 4.0 and iOS 5.0?

Apple was bashed for not having MMS, 3G back then, and for the poor multi-tasking and users lamented their lame pop-up notifications for years until they introduced the Notification Center. They did get bashed, but that doesn't change the fact that the iPhone was a revolutionary device that really ushered in the consumer smartphone revolution. Android similar was bashed for its UI, performance, lack of multi-touch, poor on-screen keyboards, etc. back then as well. All platforms seen fair criticism.

Issue is they're competing against weak opponents. RIM/WinMo/Palm were weak competitors to Android/iOS in the consumer market and WP7 isn't a strong competitor right now.

 

[AngryNil]

WP7 could fail. It's true. Yet:

USB Mass storage/Local file manager/Bluetooth file transfer/TV Out/NFC

Stupidest rationale ever.

 

[jabtano]

WP7 could fail. It's true. Yet:


Stupidest rationale ever.

Really, how so Define that.

 

[N8ter]

WP7 could fail. It's true. Yet:


Stupidest rationale ever.

All of those are very useful. You are making absolutely 0 sense.

 

[cp2_4eva]

#enjoyingtheshow

#wantshisownhighhorse

#missingasoapbox

#lovemyWP7

#rideswithM$now

#willalsosayitoldusonextyear.

 

[socialcarpet]

Apple was new to the smartphone market. The first iPhone was a true 1.0 product. WP7 wasn't. Microsoft and RIM had years of headstart on Apple, so naturally WP7's limitations incited more boggled minds than Apple's missing features. Palm was similar to Microsoft/RIM, except they were much smaller and bordering on bankrupcy so you could sort of understand where rushing the product to market was necessary just to keep the business afloat.

Well, that's true. Microsoft isn't new to smartphones. That said, the story I heard is that they were in the process of revamping Windows Mobile when the iPhone came out. They took one look at the iPhone and they realized what they had was not going to be able to compete. So they threw it all out and basically started all over again. So that essentially put them behind by at least the amount of time that it took Apple to develop the iPhone.

It's not as if Windows Phone 7 was just a re-skin of Windows Mobile, they had to essential redesign the thing from the ground up. I'm sure they were able to reuse bits and pieces but it was no small undertaking.

I'm confident that the few things that are missing will be addressed in the next major update and they won't be a point of contention anymore.

 

[socialcarpet]

Really, how so Define that.

Like it or not, these are not features that make or break a smartphone for the majority of users.

While they may be for power users and enthusiasts, the truth is for Windows Phone to succeed in the market, it is far more important for them to have 4 versions of Angry Birds, Draw Something, a decent Facebook app and better MMS.

It may be stupid, but these are the things the majority of consumers are looking for. Access to the file system, NFC, things like that are really secondary. Most people are not going to use them. It's the truth.

Windows Phone isn't a good choice for the power user right now. It may never be. It's clearly much more targeted at the consumer market and intended to be as simple and uncluttered as possible.

Anyone who really needs to see a tree view of folders and view all the system files with arcane names and have the ability to tweak everything ought to be using Android at this point.

If I were that type of user, I would never have bothered with Windows Phone and I'm not sure why anyone else would. Windows Phone is really just as simple and locked down as the iPhone is.

 

[fatclue_98]

Like it or not, these are not features that make or break a smartphone for the majority of users.

While they may be for power users and enthusiasts, the truth is for Windows Phone to succeed in the market, it is far more important for them to have 4 versions of Angry Birds, Draw Something, a decent Facebook app and better MMS.

It may be stupid, but these are the things the majority of consumers are looking for. Access to the file system, NFC, things like that are really secondary. Most people are not going to use them. It's the truth.

Windows Phone isn't a good choice for the power user right now. It may never be. It's clearly much more targeted at the consumer market and intended to be as simple and uncluttered as possible.

Anyone who really needs to see a tree view of folders and view all the system files with arcane names and have the ability to tweak everything ought to be using Android at this point.

If I were that type of user, I would never have bothered with Windows Phone and I'm not sure why anyone else would. Windows Phone is really just as simple and locked down as the iPhone is.

Really? That must be the reason my update for Skydrive 2.0 came in this morning. The same reason that MS follies about the Office Hub. Let's face it, we are all "consumers" and the enterprise set doesn't really have a choice since the boss is the one who doles out the phones. That being said, there are quite a few small business owners and self-employed types who need more than 4 versions of Angry Birds at their disposal. WP7 has the best feature set for that crowd right now AND a decent camera, an awesome eBay app and Facebook app. Have you tried the Pageonce app? It makes MS Money look like Monopoly money.

 

[canesfan625]

Apple was new to the smartphone market. The first iPhone was a true 1.0 product. WP7 wasn't. Microsoft and RIM had years of headstart on Apple, so naturally WP7's limitations incited more boggled minds than Apple's missing features. Palm was similar to Microsoft/RIM, except they were much smaller and bordering on bankrupcy so you could sort of understand where rushing the product to market was necessary just to keep the business afloat.

FroYo was released in Mid-2010. Two years later you're trying to bash Eclair for missing features? Really Eclaire wasn't missing many features. You're thinking back to before eclair when Android was missing stuff like Multi-Touch Support, and things like that. So more than 2 years.

Please explain to readers why what Android and iOS was like in 2007/8/9 matters in 2012 when WP7 has to compete with Android 4.0 and iOS 5.0?

Apple was bashed for not having MMS, 3G back then, and for the poor multi-tasking and users lamented their lame pop-up notifications for years until they introduced the Notification Center. They did get bashed, but that doesn't change the fact that the iPhone was a revolutionary device that really ushered in the consumer smartphone revolution. Android similar was bashed for its UI, performance, lack of multi-touch, poor on-screen keyboards, etc. back then as well. All platforms seen fair criticism.

Issue is they're competing against weak opponents. RIM/WinMo/Palm were weak competitors to Android/iOS in the consumer market and WP7 isn't a strong competitor right now.

neither the mobile, apps, or even phone part were something apple hadn't tried before. That phone contraption from the 80s, they had some kinda iPad device designed around the same time and then project Newton.

between mango/ios5/gingerbread we have just arrived back at everyone borrowing everyone's features.
-edit- as for froyo/eclair I couldn't remember which. Eclair was the one that finally added an account sync system that wasn't crap and fixed messaging and some other issues

 

[socialcarpet]

What I'm really trying to get across is that MS is super slow. the Mobile world is super fast. simple is ok to a point. But when that simple is less than what is available else where for the same price.

Apple and Android have, at minimum, a two year head start on Microsoft.

Yes, Microsoft needs to catch up.

If you look at where the OS is compared to where iOS and Android were after two years, Windows Phone has made excellent progress.

That said, Microsoft has to make up for that lost time, and I think they will. Aside from a few details, I think the Windows Phone OS is 80% of the way there. More apps, build in the few bits of functionality and it'll be very competitive. I don't think there should be any doubt that WP8 will meet that goal.

 

[socialcarpet]

Really? That must be the reason my update for Skydrive 2.0 came in this morning. The same reason that MS follies about the Office Hub. Let's face it, we are all "consumers" and the enterprise set doesn't really have a choice since the boss is the one who doles out the phones. That being said, there are quite a few small business owners and self-employed types who need more than 4 versions of Angry Birds at their disposal. WP7 has the best feature set for that crowd right now AND a decent camera, an awesome eBay app and Facebook app. Have you tried the Pageonce app? It makes MS Money look like Monopoly money.

I'm not saying it's an either/or scenario. We can have it all, and I think we soon will.

 

[N8ter]

neither the mobile, apps, or even phone part were something apple hadn't tried before. That phone contraption from the 80s, they had some kinda iPad device designed around the same time and then project Newton.

between mango/ios5/gingerbread we have just arrived back at everyone borrowing everyone's features.
-edit- as for froyo/eclair I couldn't remember which. Eclair was the one that finally added an account sync system that wasn't crap and fixed messaging and some other issues

That phone wasn't a smartphone, and was basically a failed research project for cutesy office equipment. It was in the 1980s. Microsoft had Windows Mobile/Pocket PC out and the Blackberry was out for over half a decade before the iPhone and Android were on the market - nevermind Palm's devices. They had more than enough time to innovate and bring revolutionary devices to the market. They didn't, becuase they didn't care about consumers. They only cared about business users who were very utilitarian in their smartphone use (i.e the types of people USB Mass Storage and SD Card slots are a showstopper for, for example, and who generally don't care about camera quality and things like that).

Eclair was released at the beginning of 2010 or so. That's over 2 years ago. I already said that was the big Android update that really made it usable. Glad you agree. But it was a long time ago and WP7 came out the gate competing against phones being released with FroYo on board, and by the time Mango rolled around GB was coming on all new phones. Between Mango and Apollo they'll probably skip ICS and have to compete with JB at Apollo launch. WP7 competed against iOS 4 and 5. Eclair and iOS4 were released before WP7 was even RTM'd. Phones like the Galaxy S/Droid X and iPhone 4 were released months before WP7 devices arrived in carrier stores.

Nevermind, WP7 had its own issues on release. Copy/Past, Multi-Tasking, Video MMS, IM, Decent Browser, etc. were all missing on release so even the platform we use had to wait a year before it was at least on par for competititiveness.

I still think WP7 is suffering from a bit of bad stigma from launch, cause the platform wasn't ready then. Releasing something like Mango back then and then building on top of it would have put them in a MUCH MUCH better position these days, but people form opinions, keep them, and share them a lot. Consumer-based interpersonal marketing and marketing through peer pressure works way better than commercial and add campaigns on the internet that half of people probably don't see due to addblock add-ons and using smartphones to browse, anyways...

 

[N8ter]

Well, that's true. Microsoft isn't new to smartphones. That said, the story I heard is that they were in the process of revamping Windows Mobile when the iPhone came out. They took one look at the iPhone and they realized what they had was not going to be able to compete. So they threw it all out and basically started all over again. So that essentially put them behind by at least the amount of time that it took Apple to develop the iPhone.

It's not as if Windows Phone 7 was just a re-skin of Windows Mobile, they had to essential redesign the thing from the ground up. I'm sure they were able to reuse bits and pieces but it was no small undertaking.

I'm confident that the few things that are missing will be addressed in the next major update and they won't be a point of contention anymore.

No. They only really redesigned the UI layer and used new app frameworks and libraries. The core of the OS is still very similar, it's just updated. It's still a CE-based OS. They basically did one half for WP7/7.5 and will finish off the rest in Apollo (swapping out underpinnings from CE to NT).

Some things have been missing since launch and people have been saying the same thing. I'm not so wililng to lemming that statement anymore, not that I care at this point.

 

[tekhna]

I still think WP7 is suffering from a bit of bad stigma from launch, cause the platform wasn't ready then. Releasing something like Mango back then and then building on top of it would have put them in a MUCH MUCH better position these days, but people form opinions, keep them, and share them a lot. Consumer-based interpersonal marketing and marketing through peer pressure works way better than commercial and add campaigns on the internet that half of people probably don't see due to addblock add-ons and using smartphones to browse, anyways...

I think people have totally forgotten about the launch. I just think no one cares about much other than the iphone and Android right now. WP7 just isn't really relevant, for better or worse.

 

[madhouse1616]

Well, that's true. Microsoft isn't new to smartphones. That said, the story I heard is that they were in the process of revamping Windows Mobile when the iPhone came out. They took one look at the iPhone and they realized what they had was not going to be able to compete. So they threw it all out and basically started all over again. So that essentially put them behind by at least the amount of time that it took Apple to develop the iPhone.

It's not as if Windows Phone 7 was just a re-skin of Windows Mobile, they had to essential redesign the thing from the ground up. I'm sure they were able to reuse bits and pieces but it was no small undertaking.

I'm confident that the few things that are missing will be addressed in the next major update and they won't be a point of contention anymore.

not entirely from the ground up...they stole their own zune team who designed the zune hd interface..anyone with a zune instantly recognizes the features and those who have a zune absolutely love the interface simplicity

 

[N8ter]

I think people have totally forgotten about the launch. I just think no one cares about much other than the iphone and Android right now. WP7 just isn't really relevant, for better or worse.

People don't forget their opinions. That's what I meant.

"First impressions are lasting impressions."

Issue is, like WebOS, WP7 really didn't make a great first impression. WebOS sort of got killed by putting it on one carrier here in the beginning, arguably the worst carrier in the US (Sprint) and the hardware was bad. WP7 sort of defeated itself by launching beta-quality software in a competitive market.

Also, people put way too much hope in the Nokia deal which I'm sure doesn't really give the other OEMs much reason to "innovate" in this ecosystem. Microsoft shouldn't have played favorites with their partners, IMO.

 

[tekhna]

People don't forget their opinions. That's what I meant.

"First impressions are lasting impressions."

Issue is, like WebOS, WP7 really didn't make a great first impression. WebOS sort of got killed by putting it on one carrier here in the beginning, arguably the worst carrier in the US (Sprint) and the hardware was bad. WP7 sort of defeated itself by launching beta-quality software in a competitive market.

Also, people put way too much hope in the Nokia deal which I'm sure doesn't really give the other OEMs much reason to "innovate" in this ecosystem. Microsoft shouldn't have played favorites with their partners, IMO.

That's my point--WP7 didn't make an impression at all. Like basically nothing. It's not about bad impressions, it's just that when you don't make an impression at all no one remembers you're there. I'd bet outside of nerd circles and those people who ran into a WP7 phone at a store, no one knows it exists. My dad, who's relatively tech savvy (for a guy his age) and uses Microsoft products for everything except his phone didn't even know Microsoft had a phone OS anymore.

I'd be willing to bet if you went around asking random folks on the street what they know about WP7, I'd bet half of them would tell you they didn't even know Microsoft made a phone OS anymore. It's not just that WP7's marketshare is effectively 0%, their mindshare is effectively 0% too, outside of design and nerd circles.
This is absolutely dreadful, but, and this is an important but--this is Microsoft's chance to score big with WP8. Totally reboot the OS, the phones, cut off legacy devices and damn the torpedos.

 

[diplomat696]

That was kinda the point. You're sorta giving MS a pass because the other guys did the same thing. Yet a lot has changed since then, and that was back when smartphones, all smartphones, simply sucked. Heck, most people didn't even know what a smartphone was.

iOS & Android have been around for a long time now (in tech years anyway). They got a pass because they were first & no one knew any better. Now we do. So how are you going to convince Joe & Jane Consumer to give MS a pass the same way, when they could just go with one of the more mature ecosystems?? Honest question.

Microsoft seems like they're always playing catchup.

Yeah they are playing catch up because the OS has only been in the wild for roughly 18 months or so.

I would love to know how many regular (non-power users) of smart phones really use copy and paste functions a lot. I have a use for it on very rare occasions when someone asks me for a link from twitter via a text message or something of this kind but otherwise I rarely use it either to be honest.

My wife and mother in law both just got Lumia 900s but I have not shown them the copy and paste function and neither one has asked me about it or even hinted that they would need such a function or something similar and they both text and email a lot.

My belief is that MS did not see C&P as a need for the masses at the time of the original release and as many other posters have stated were looking for a simplistic easy to use smart phone experience. I believe truly that WP7 is a one of a kind experience in terms of visuals and simplicity. The experience is what sells people and the more people that are exposed to the OS itself I think the more it will catch on.

It is kind of tiresome also to still see trolls talking about how back in 2010 WP did not have a copy and paste feature, guess what, it has one now and has done since a long time ago!!! The features are gradually coming, apollo is going to add even more (can't wait) but yet the droid/crapple fanbois are gonna keep on hating because they can't let go and let's face it EVERYONE HATES CHANGE right......

 

[jabtano]

That's my point--WP7 didn't make an impression at all. Like basically nothing. It's not about bad impressions, it's just that when you don't make an impression at all no one remembers you're there. I'd bet outside of nerd circles and those people who ran into a WP7 phone at a store, no one knows it exists. My dad, who's relatively tech savvy (for a guy his age) and uses Microsoft products for everything except his phone didn't even know Microsoft had a phone OS anymore.

I'd be willing to bet if you went around asking random folks on the street what they know about WP7, I'd bet half of them would tell you they didn't even know Microsoft made a phone OS anymore. It's not just that WP7's marketshare is effectively 0%, their mindshare is effectively 0% too, outside of design and nerd circles.
This is absolutely dreadful, but, and this is an important but--this is Microsoft's chance to score big with WP8. Totally reboot the OS, the phones, cut off legacy devices and damn the torpedos.

You make a great point on impressions. Lets face it most of us here are WP7 users I for one do not want to see this fail, fact is I want to succeed. But MS has this way of well.. even win8 is a few months behind win7 at the same time frame with prevue releases There are a few things that would really make an impression. One of them we are seeing now with Nokia Lumia 900 it's a great looking device with a great price and apps. we have yet to see what MS is going to do with WP8 but if they add landscaping and other features they could make lasting impressions one other thing when they show off the OS rather than just show the plan color tiles show the ones that are actually live and updating like the people tile.I think that if WP8 doesn't push this OS forwarded more then it will never go MS is really coming from the back of the pack in mobility and tablets... lets see what they can do

 

[Raptor007]

MS needs to name the platform something else. No one cares if you have a desktop/laptop with XP vs Win7 vs Win8 its a desktop OS and it gets the job done. Most people buy a new desktop and get the new OS.

In the world of smartphones MS thinks you can still follow the same naming method, calling the platform WP7, WP7.5, WP7.5 Refresh, WP8 is stupid and tells people your device is date old or fragmented from the pack. No one should care or really notice what version of the OS you have, what they should notice is the Metro UI and know is the "Fill In blank Here" platform.

XBox has a great name, Zune . . . well it was crappy hardware and too little way too late. Perhaps if they put all of their entertainment/mobile, etc folks together and made them work together stuff would actually work well.

I'm coming back to WP with a Trophy, but honestly if MS can't get their stuff together with WP8 it may be short lived. I'm tired of Android, sick of iOS and "having" to get the new phone every year or else you look dated or worse your phone doesn't get an OS update for say 9-12 months if ever.

MS really has a shot to take it big, but as they always do they could fall flat on their face again.