WP10 - does it make sense to buy phone with it? How the future of this OS will look like?

[slivy58]

Why didn't you say that before?

Because I like to see the Cat & Mouse play... Just kidding :winktongue:

There's no denying W10M is deeply flawed, but it remains the easiest and most dependable for the most basic functions of a communications device.

I'll agree with you there except on the "dependable" front because that hasn't necessarily been the case for me. The reason for saying that stems from the inconsistencies I've become accustom too w/WM, one day it hits its mark then the next day it'll be off. Got to remember, I came from 8.1 which was actually very smooth and consistent, IMO any ways.

We can debate apps and app stores all day long, and Windows will lose that battle for the most part.

And there is where some of the frustrating aspects have surfaced for me, back in the 8.1 days we had most apps needed although they lacked compared to their counterparts, less feature-rich. Now move forward to today and it has become a real issue in my realm, apps once used no longer work w/10, those 3rd-party ones that do, changed little. Then there's those that are supposedly available yet crash upon launch, or won't install from store period. You can say it is the Dev's problem but I've been in contact with a few of them and according to their investigations, and now mine as well, it's Microsoft that keeps messing things up.
Some can argue that if an app is unavailable then just access what needs to be through a web portal, IMO that is nowhere near the same or as good as astand-alone app. As an example, there's a popular chain store here in Canada w/no app developed for platform, use to access via browser on 8.1 but on WM (for longest time) it kept coming back with "sorry, we don't support your browser", same results on any browser we tried. Now it is semi-working yet still wonky, refuses to display pages properly. Yes it could be their problem but never ever had an issue accessing that particular site on another device including 8.1. I know, that is only one scenario yet there have been several more which highlights the fact(s), in my case, the app-gap isn't the only problem.

But the crucial ones that are part of the core OS stand on their own against any other system.

And that is where the difference lies between say, you and me. What is considered crucial to you may be the total opposites for me and vice versa. That's why I mentioned and feel, "good enough" doesn't quite cut it in some respects with MORE always being better, allows for a broader base to be covered giving user?s "CHOICE" since, ?one size does not fit all?.


Contrary to the way it may look we do have a soft-spot for the platform and attempt to give it an honest go often, yet at every turn a brick wall seems to appear causing us to abandon that effort. Purchased a 650 recently and was really impressed with this device, the only problem is that, in many ways, its functionality mirrors my 830 (speed not withstanding). Seeing that can only allow me to conclude that the OS is to blame and nothing else.
Had the notorious screen flash/flicker on my 830 too so was expecting no such anomaly with my 650, wrong, to my surprise it was actually worse... Then my 650 encountered hardware issues and we had to return it but that's another story. Being that this is only a small example of MY woes we've encounter I'm sure you get my gist in that, on my turf things are not quite as rosy as yours nor are my needs the same. Would love nothing more that a "smooth operator" but so far that has not happened.

 

[slivy58]

You're completely missing the point and failing to separate what I'm actually saying and what I'm not saying, and in doing so you're (I hope) inadvertently merging the terms "opinion" and "fact" to mean essentially the same thing. Opinions we all have and we have a right to them, but facts are what they are. I'm far more annoyed by the state of public discourse these days than I am of several facts that are being discussed.

So when I'm saying that you have your experiences and I have mine, I'm not saying that your experience is invalid or that what you say happened didn't happen, what I'm saying is there's a limit to what broader knowledge we can draw from supposed personal experience. So to give an example;

There's one poster who has declared W10M dead since back in April (I think), and he used certain arguments to support that assertion. One argument was that there are no banking apps that allow for payments, and I stated that mine does allow for that. His own experience of his own bank not having an app or not allowing it in-app is limited to him and his bank, and the broader statement that no such apps exist period is simply factually untrue. He further more explained that there was no more support of the OS and no more development - back in April - and then he repeated that claim recently; but between then and now we've had several new phones come to market, several updates, and several statements by MS officials about upcoming updates. So, again, his experience of not getting what he wants is valid, but his extrapolation was factually inaccurate.

So when I accuse people like him of having bad arguments that can be objectively verified. It's NOT a matter of opinion. His argument was that platform WM lacks X and therefore Y is the result. If I show that X exists then his argument falls apart. None of that is "different opinion", it is simple logic.

So you're right, if you state that WM doesn't rise to what you need then that's your opinion and I don't dispute that. All I was saying was that if any single user's experience is enough to make a broader statement then this is surely true for any single user for any OS. If that is not the case then we have a logical problem, a fundamental problem with reasoning. So again, we can possibly try to compare the platforms based on different parameters but we're going to run into some problems for some of them. App-gap is an easy enough parameter to use as an example: I agree that the other two have far more apps available, so if the parameter is just "How many apps?" then it's not much of a discussion to be had. Of course, a million apps that nobody uses is of use to nobody, so if the question is "How many apps that a person needs and uses?" then the answer might be slightly different. Still though, it's easy enough to evaluate, and in the context of the thread it's partially a personal decision that matters - 'do I get what I want out of this?'

But if we're talking about bugs and errors etc it's a completely different matter and far harder. I'm totally willing to compare devices or OS and we can pick whatever parameters you want and then decide how to evaluate the parameters or data, and then we can come to a conclusion. But as was already pointed out, just how are you going to quantify "bugs"? By reports by users on a forum? By bloggers on their blogs? By more 'recognized' and 'respected' journalists? By official admission? And then once they're confirmed, how are they going to be weighted? Do we judge Samsung by the burning phones, or just that model? Do we judge Apple by the recent reports of OS problems, or no? Is MS' Win Phone inferior because it doesn't have as many phones on sale on the market as Android - and if that's how it is then what about Apple?

See what I'm saying? It's about being equal in our evaluation and clear in what we say and don't say. I know that's an acquired taste these days but you can't blame a guy for aiming higher, can you? I'm by no means super-clear myself, but I try to be.

Sorry and no offence, but I think you are digging too deep here :wink:

DEAD??? No one can say that for certainty but if you are one who followed, lived, breathed and read articles about WP/WM, I can see how easily that could be perceived for some. For me, I am on the fence with that one. I was BB through and through back in the day and we know where that ended up, many dispute that was different yet IMO all that matters is the end results.

If my experiences show time and time again that Android or iOS rivals WM in many ways then that is all I need to know, in essence I'm being equal in my evaluation to MYSELF and simply relaying that message, to the best of my knowledge, here. I'll speak the truth in the context that "this one works better" because it does for me and not for reasons that I'm partial to one or the other.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Sorry and no offence, but I think you are digging too deep here :wink:

I don't think so. There are in my opinion far greater issues facing us than WM of course, but when we train ourselves to be shallow simply because we don't care about the "lesser" issues we'll reap the not so good rewards when we inevitably apply the same shallowness to more important ones. And I'm not saying you're shallow btw, I'm only saying that I'm the type of person who asks people like you a bunch of questions and can thereby figure out what you mean, but many people will pick - to form an opinion - a simple sentence that has been condensed and distilled and either no longer reflects a complete reality or is even misleads people. Their opinion will then not be well founded.

I'd also argue that IF we like WM, and IF an app-gap or poor app quality / development is an issue, and IF the reason for the latter is a small market, then it would be in our collective interest to present an honest but 'measured' recommendation that has a chance of increasing the customer base; a self-fulfilling (reverse-)prophecy.

If my experiences show time and time again that Android or iOS rivals WM in many ways then that is all I need to know, in essence I'm being equal in my evaluation to MYSELF and simply relaying that message, to the best of my knowledge, here. I'll speak the truth in the context that "this one works better" because it does for me and not for reasons that I'm partial to one or the other.

Right, except my beef is with condensing "this one works better for me" to "this one works better", because the two imply two very different situations. The former leaves the possibility of personal preferences and habits and quirks, and the latter does not. The latter pretty clearly implies that the device simply works better, period, without any caveats. And so we're back to discussing to what extent we can actually know that.

I honestly don't think we're too far apart on the factual stuff, it's more a matter of what importance expression has to us, and how we perceive what people write.... maybe....

 

[fatclue_98]

Sorry and no offence, but I think you are digging too deep here :wink:

DEAD??? No one can say that for certainty but if you are one who followed, lived, breathed and read articles about WP/WM, I can see how easily that could be perceived for some. For me, I am on the fence with that one. I was BB through and through back in the day and we know where that ended up, many dispute that was different yet IMO all that matters is the end results.

If my experiences show time and time again that Android or iOS rivals WM in many ways then that is all I need to know, in essence I'm being equal in my evaluation to MYSELF and simply relaying that message, to the best of my knowledge, here. I'll speak the truth in the context that "this one works better" because it does for me and not for reasons that I'm partial to one or the other.

Where did BB end up? I just received a fresh OS update with many bug fixes as well as NIAP certification for government use. Dead means there is zero support, zero development and shuttered app stores. Symbian and webOS are dead. Even WM6.5 is getting updated on a regular basis but you don't know it because it's for Enterprise (https://www.zebra.com/us/en/products/mobile-computers/handheld/mc45.html).

Consumers think that what they see and hear from their favorite sources is the Gospel truth. We don't have sales figures for the HP x3 so we don't know how it's doing. But I'm wagering they didn't design and manufacture it without commitments in place and purchase orders in hand. BlackBerry still has obligations from varying clients and they have to honor those contracts. A quick example, the Hummer brand has been dead since the GM bailout of 2009 but they're (GM) still delivering HMMVs to the military.

Just because something's not available to the general public doesn't make it dead.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

 

[slivy58]

Where did BB end up? I just received a fresh OS update with many bug fixes as well as NIAP certification for government use. Dead means there is zero support, zero development and shuttered app stores. Symbian and webOS are dead. Even WM6.5 is getting updated on a regular basis but you don't know it because it's for Enterprise (https://www.zebra.com/us/en/products/mobile-computers/handheld/mc45.html).

Consumers think that what they see and hear from their favorite sources is the Gospel truth. We don't have sales figures for the HP x3 so we don't know how it's doing. But I'm wagering they didn't design and manufacture it without commitments in place and purchase orders in hand. BlackBerry still has obligations from varying clients and they have to honor those contracts. A quick example, the Hummer brand has been dead since the GM bailout of 2009 but they're (GM) still delivering HMMVs to the military.

Just because something's not available to the general public doesn't make it dead.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

Didn't imply any of them were physically dead, was just pointing out the fact that many may/will perceive them as going the way of the dinosaur due to their standings in the marketplace today, and contextually it could mean they are dead to a certain entity such as the general public. So, theoretically most of those that you speak of are dead to the masses, unless that metaphor doesn't meet your criteria either. :smile:



I still have my HTC P4000 running WMP 6.0 and it didn't get the update, what gives? :winktongue:

 

[fatclue_98]

Didn't imply any of them were physically dead, was just pointing out the fact that many may/will perceive them as going the way of the dinosaur due to their standings in the marketplace today, and contextually it could mean they are dead to a certain entity such as the general public. So, theoretically most of those that you speak of are dead to the masses, unless that metaphor doesn't meet your criteria either. :smile:



I still have my HTC P4000 running WMP 6.0 and it didn't get the update, what gives? :winktongue:

It's not a metaphor and my criteria is quite simple. If a product, whether it be a smartphone or a vacuum cleaner, is actively being supported by its manufacturer - it's not dead Jim.

 

[anon(50597)]

Depends on our meaning of "support". That can be very subjective.

Sent from mTalk

 

[Wolfjt]

Where did BB end up? I just received a fresh OS update with many bug fixes as well as NIAP certification for government use. Dead means there is zero support, zero development and shuttered app stores. Symbian and webOS are dead. Even WM6.5 is getting updated on a regular basis but you don't know it because it's for Enterprise (https://www.zebra.com/us/en/products/mobile-computers/handheld/mc45.html).

Consumers think that what they see and hear from their favorite sources is the Gospel truth. We don't have sales figures for the HP x3 so we don't know how it's doing. But I'm wagering they didn't design and manufacture it without commitments in place and purchase orders in hand. BlackBerry still has obligations from varying clients and they have to honor those contracts. A quick example, the Hummer brand has been dead since the GM bailout of 2009 but they're (GM) still delivering HMMVs to the military.

Just because something's not available to the general public doesn't make it dead.

Sent from Alcatel Idol 4S with Windows via mTalk

Win Mobile 6.5 will be end of support in 2020, it's dead Jim

 

[slivy58]

I don't think so. There are in my opinion far greater issues facing us than WM of course, but when we train ourselves to be shallow simply because we don't care about the "lesser" issues we'll reap the not so good rewards when we inevitably apply the same shallowness to more important ones. And I'm not saying you're shallow btw, I'm only saying that I'm the type of person who asks people like you a bunch of questions and can thereby figure out what you mean, but many people will pick - to form an opinion - a simple sentence that has been condensed and distilled and either no longer reflects a complete reality or is even misleads people. Their opinion will then not be well founded.

I'd also argue that IF we like WM, and IF an app-gap or poor app quality / development is an issue, and IF the reason for the latter is a small market, then it would be in our collective interest to present an honest but 'measured' recommendation that has a chance of increasing the customer base; a self-fulfilling (reverse-)prophecy.



Right, except my beef is with condensing "this one works better for me" to "this one works better", because the two imply two very different situations. The former leaves the possibility of personal preferences and habits and quirks, and the latter does not. The latter pretty clearly implies that the device simply works better, period, without any caveats. And so we're back to discussing to what extent we can actually know that.

I honestly don't think we're too far apart on the factual stuff, it's more a matter of what importance expression has to us, and how we perceive what people write.... maybe....

Not quite sure what you are getting at in the broad sense...

To me the words "great", "awesome", "happy" or, "crap", "garbage", "unhappy" pretty much explains what one is thinking or dealing with. No matter how it is written it is usually pretty eventide if the user is fore or against, if they throw in another platform as being better I'm sure they think it is at that time.

I look at every post as being an "individuals opinion" unless otherwise stated, not sure how else you could look at it. If they say "this works better" then obviously it does for them and does not mean I should be acceptant of their claim. Could take offence or fire back a rebuttal with my claim that "it does not". The bottom line, use what you read for your betterment if that's your intent, only way of doing that is trying it on for size yourself (hands-on), either you'll end up with an anticipated yay or "get outta here " nay, in most cases no harm done.

I can make (and have) the claim that Android and iOS work better than WM, but where is that claim coming from, ME. Is it wrong for me to make that claim, of course not because that is the outcome going by MY hands-on experiences. What about an article touting the same, is it gospel or just an individuals opinion after hands-on testing? The only way you can refute something is by experiencing it first-hand yourself, even then there is no guarantee because what works for you may not work for others and vice versa... It is a proven fact that not everything is created equal no matter how alike they may appear.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Win Mobile 6.5 will be end of support in 2020, it's dead Jim

So anything that won't be supported in the future is currently dead? Is that the logic you're applying?

 

[Wolfjt]

So anything that won't be supported in the future is currently dead? Is that the logic you're applying?

For sure, Especially in the enterprise where win mobile and CE.net live. Companies can not afford to be on a platform that will not be supported. Companies rely on 5 years of life and 5 more years after that for support. End of story

 

[Wolfjt]

So anything that won't be supported in the future is currently dead? Is that the logic you're applying?

Will you go buy a Pebble watch or a Microsoft Band now? Do you consider them dead?

 

[fatclue_98]

Win Mobile 6.5 will be end of support in 2020, it's dead Jim

It's 2016. Contrary to your Nostradamus-like abilities, it's very much alive.

 

[fatclue_98]

Will you go buy a Pebble watch or a Microsoft Band now? Do you consider them dead?

Pebble is indeed dead. But that's because the manufacturer, not you, said so. The Microsoft Band will be dead when Microsoft says it is, not you.

 

[Wolfjt]

It's 2016. Contrary to your Nostradamus-like abilities, it's very much alive.

Man, unbelievable, it is a cold hard fact that Win Mobile and CE are end of support in 2020. Companies are preparing right now to re-write all their applications for Android iOS or Windows 10. Look it up its all true. Also, there is a certain Windows 10 that will be end of life in 2018.

 

[Wolfjt]

It's 2016. Contrary to your Nostradamus-like abilities, it's very much alive.

Actually it's Win 10 mobile will be end of life in 2018 http://www.pcworld.com/article/3011...n-end-of-life-date-surrounded-by-mystery.html

 

[fatclue_98]

Man, unbelievable, it is a cold hard fact that Win Mobile and CE are end of support in 2020. Companies are preparing right now to re-write all their applications for Android iOS or Windows 10. Look it up its all true. Also, there is a certain Windows 10 that will be end of life in 2018.

I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore because it's not worth it to me. I love the ignore list.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Not quite sure what you are getting at in the broad sense...

What I'm getting at is that you know what you mean, and that I now know what you mean, but that a lot of people express themselves carelessly and a lot of people read poorly (and some people comprehend poorly), and between all of those options some big misconceptions arise and thrive. Therefore we should be careful when we express ourselves. Words matter and we actually do have a responsibility for what we say and write.

That's the broad sense of what I'm saying.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Originally Posted by mattiasnyc

So anything that won't be supported in the future is currently dead? Is that the logic you're applying?

For sure, Especially in the enterprise where win mobile and CE.net live. Companies can not afford to be on a platform that will not be supported. Companies rely on 5 years of life and 5 more years after that for support. End of story

Will the current iPhone 7 be supported in perpetuity?

 

[Wolfjt]

Will the current iPhone 7 be supported in perpetuity?

Not sure of the point? Obviously nothing is supported forever. But the iPhone has an ecosystem (devs) that does support it, unlike Windows. That's my point, about this whole thing. Devs are not supporting the platform at this time. So, I could not recommend it to anyone. I'm not saying there won't be support, I'm not saying I don't like Windows 10. I'm not sure why people are taking g things so personally either.