WP8 with HSPA+42 on T-Mobile USA?

[Mystictrust]

Even after T-Mo refarms, you'll be getting single-channel HSPA with a non-AWS device. That will be 3 megabits/second versus an average of 24 to 36 using a proper AWS HSPA+42 device like one of HTCs or Samsung's WP8 handsets made for T-Mo.

The unlocked iPhone promo is strictly a value play for people who would otherwise get Sprint and their "slow-as-EDGE" 3G speeds. T-Mo isn't guaranteeing availability of HSPA for iOS devices on the 1900 MHz band.

First of all, here's an IPhone running on T-Mobile in one of the areas where 1900 is working... it's not 3Mbps. Keep in mind that iPhone 4S has a max speed of HSPA 14.4:

Everything I've read shows that T-Mobile is bringing their "4G HSPA+" network over to the 1900 PCS band to make room for LTE on the current AWS bands. It would be real dumb to try and move as many people as they can over to 1900 and throw aside all the work they've been doing with HSPA+42 and higher. Highly doubt T-Mobile is actually going to flaunt around a network refarm, entice unlocked phone owners (with their obvious focus on the iPhone), and then go ahead and give them slower speeds.

?We are going to make our network iPhone compatible. We?ve got over a million customers on the iPhone now,? my T-Mobile source said.

It felt that a fully iPhone compatible network, offering HSPA+ 42/84 and eventually LTE speeds coupled with T-Mobile's much more affordable voice, messaging and data plans would entice users to bring their off contract or unlocked iPhones over.

Source

Also, directly from a T-Mobile press release - why would they advertise 70% faster speeds on their network versus AT&T?:

In fact, we?re already starting to turn up 4G HSPA+ service in our 1900 MHz spectrum. With sites already live in cities like Seattle, Las Vegas, Washington DC and the New York metro area, don?t be surprised to hear reports of iPhone ?speed sightings.? We expect to have these improvements deployed in a large number of markets later this year.

Our internal tests of unlocked iPhone 4S devices running over 4G (HSPA+) on our 1900 network recorded on average 70% faster download speeds than iPhone 4S devices on AT&T?s network.

Source

 

[Mystictrust]

Hmm. It seems that the article says that the chip set is able to support a pentaband radio but doesn't say that the Lumia actually uses one. It would be great if it did, but we need actual confirmation.

-- Sent via mobile

Directly from Nokia about the Lumia 820/920: "Both phones will be available in select markets in pentaband LTE and HSPA+ variants later this year."

If they indeed bring the T-Mobile AWS bands to the new Lumias as they did with the pentaband 808 Pureview, then nobody will have to worry about which markets are fully refarmed when unlocked Lumias are available for purchase. (Unless T-Mobile picks up both phones anyway)

Source: Nokia Conversations : the official Nokia blog

 

[eric12341]

Please don't report posts unless they violate site rules. Anyway T-mobile will begin rolling out category 10 LTE over the AWS band in Q4 of this year and it will be complete complete and blanket their current HSPA+ AWS footprint by the end of 2013

 

[Garrett92C]

Directly from Nokia about the Lumia 820/920: "Both phones will be available in select markets in pentaband LTE and HSPA+ variants later this year."

If they indeed bring the T-Mobile AWS bands to the new Lumias as they did with the pentaband 808 Pureview, then nobody will have to worry about which markets are fully refarmed when unlocked Lumias are available for purchase. (Unless T-Mobile picks up both phones anyway)

Source: Nokia Conversations : the official Nokia blog

Ah, I didn't see that. Thanks for pointing it out. It would be perfect if the 920 has AWS since I'm a T-Mo user and still haven't decided between the 8X and 920.

 

[travisel]

Samsung ATIV S has no LTE support!

Im not happy about this but you mite be?

The Samsung ATIV S has no LTE support!

HSPA＋ 42Mbps 850/900/1900/2100MHz
EDGE/GPRS 850/900/1800/1900MHz

ATIV S - Samsung ATIV

LTE is next gen and if you are like me stuck in a 3 year plan you want the newest and greatest from now to 2015 eh?

 

[brmiller1976]

Thanks to Mystic for providing the marketing spin... but here's the reality.

The 1900 MHz bandwidth that T-Mobile is deploying is a small sliver that AT&T provided as part of their breakup fee. It's between 2.5 MHz and 10 MHz of spectrum (in most urban markets it's as low as 5 MHz).

A single screenshot of a phone running on a completely open bit of spectrum (which 1900 on T-Mo is right now) will not provide anywhere NEAR an accurate view of the day-to-day experience once it's up, running and national. A fully-filled chunk of spectrum on HSPA+14 will average about 2 to 3 mb/second).

(Incidentally, I could provide the peak speed of my Radar HSPA+14 at 12 mb/s and say "it's faster than my Lumia 900's average on AT&T was!", and it would be equally misleading -- actually, less-so, since AWS on T-Mo is still a heavily-used frequency, not a brand-new open slice).

Once that paper-thin 1900 MHz 2.5, 5 or 10 MHz spectrum on T-Mo fills up, speeds on 1900 will take a nosedive due to on-air congestion.

HSPA+42 and 84 will only make it worse, since 42 is essentially your phone opening three simultaneous connections downstream and 84 is opening SIX! Goddess help the poor, hapless soul who is stuck in 2.5 MHz of 1900 on T-Mo, clogged up with HSPA+84 devices sucking up all that precious spectrum.

AWS devices, in contrast, will have between 15 and 25 MHz of airspace to play in... much better for HSPA. And T-Mo's LTE network will use between 10 and 20 for LTE, which is much, much more spectrum-efficient than HSPA and delivers faster data speeds and more connections in less frequency bandwidths.

In short, if you bring a 1900 HSPA device to T-Mo, you'll do faster than EDGE, but much, much slower than the same device with AWS, and rapid degradation in performance if a large swathe of people bring unlocked 1900 devices over at the same time and fight for bandwidth over 2.5 or 5 MHz blocks. An AWS-equipped phone will ALWAYS outperform a comparable 1900 device on T-Mobile, all other things being equal, due to simple physics.

That physics also explains why LTE on MetroPCS is slower than HSPA+14 on T-Mobile... lack of frequency bandwidth for MetroPCS.

The "70% faster than AT&T" ad campaign is likely citing average HSPA+42 speeds on T-Mo's entire network, and won't likely reflect performance on the 1900 MHz spectrum (which is an oddball frequency unlikely to be supported by T-Mo's own devices).

 

[travisel]

Samsung ATIV S is the only WP8 with out LTE support right now! Why? Too make T-Mobile people happy eh?

 

[brmiller1976]

ATIV will have LTE support in the USA on Verizon (at the very least).

LTE is even more of a mess than HSPA. LTE spectrum rarely overlaps, so phones with LTE will have to be targeted towards a particular carrier in order to be usable, and "unlocked LTE handsets" will be well-near useless. As a result, phone vendors are unlikely to discuss LTE configuration specifics at launches (just as Galaxy S III "premiered" as an HSPA+ phone despite being an LTE device on three of the four US carriers).

 

[Mystictrust]

The 1900 MHz bandwidth that T-Mobile is deploying is a small sliver that AT&T provided as part of their breakup fee. It's between 2.5 MHz and 10 MHz of spectrum (in most urban markets it's as low as 5 MHz).

Do you know how much 1900 that T-Mobile owns in total (not just what they got from AT&T)? I personally don't know. That could make more of a difference in saying what possible speed or availability will be on 1900 HSPA+

In a recent FCC filing, T-Mobile said by mid-2013, its expects half of its 1900 MHz spectrum to be devoted to GSM while the other half will run HSPA+ services, and that by then half of its AWS spectrum will support HSPA+ and the other half LTE.

Source

To me, that says they are using more than just what AT&T gave them, they are using their entire existing portfolio of 1900 Mhz spectrum, combined with the new spectrum that they got. In some press release, T-Mobile has also stated that there are not as many people using their 2G GSM network as there used to be, and that is where most of their 1900 lies, so they'll be breaking that up as well.

As part of the network upgrade, T-Mobile will install new equipment in 37,000 cell sites and will deploy HSPA+ in its PCS 1900 MHz spectrum band, which it is currently using for 2G GSM services Source

If all they used was what AT&T gave them, I'm not sure it could go nationwide :-/

 

[brmiller1976]

Do you know how much 1900 that T-Mobile owns in total (not just what they got from AT&T)? I personally don't know. That could make more of a difference in saying what possible speed or availability will be on 1900 HSPA+

The PCC filings are all there to read. In many major cities, like NY, you're looking at spreads as small as 5 MHz. If you want to share a tower connection with 1,000 other HSPA+42 iPhones with a 5 MHz-wide 1900 MHz downstream, be my guest. I'll stay on AWS before doing that.

To me, that says they are using more than just what AT&T gave them, they are using their entire existing portfolio of 1900 Mhz spectrum

Most 1900 MHz spectrum they have comes from the AT&T transaction. Prior to that, they owned very little frequency spread in those ranges, only enough to provide 2G voice and GPRS. That's why they bid on AWS in the first place.

T-Mobile has also stated that there are not as many people using their 2G GSM network as there used to be, and that is where most of their 1900 lies, so they'll be breaking that up as well.

Yes, and that's where the 10 MHz wide gaps come in -- 5 MHz of T-Mo plus 5 MHz of former AT&T frequency.

This tends to be concentrated in rural areas, with fewer users, and could be entirely tolerable assuming a combo of good coverage and low population density. That will be a minority of users however.

If all they used was what AT&T gave them, I'm not sure it could go nationwide :-/

That's what allowed them to go nationwide on 1900 in the first place. Otherwise, they'd have to shut down ALL 2G service to offer 1900 HSPA+ (and I don't believe the FCC would allow that).

Net-net, service will improve for iPhone users versus EDGE/GPRS, but the experience on 1900 is going to be nowhere near as good as on AWS HSPA+ or AWS LTE.

 

[Mystictrust]

That's what allowed them to go nationwide on 1900 in the first place. Otherwise, they'd have to shut down ALL 2G service to offer 1900 HSPA+ (and I don't believe the FCC would allow that).

Net-net, service will improve for iPhone users versus EDGE/GPRS, but the experience on 1900 is going to be nowhere near as good as on AWS HSPA+ or AWS LTE.

If that is the way it's all going down, I suppose we'll find out just how it is soon enough (by the beginning of next year) when all those iPhones on T-Mobile start to light up with those speeds and people start raving (or complaining) about it.

Do you think that T-Mobile's position in number of subscribers and number of people with unlocked phones on the network could benefit in this case? I mean, compared to the other carriers they have a much lower subscriber count and an even lower number of unlocked phones on the network. That could be a very big positive.

 

[brmiller1976]

T-Mobile will still provide average faster speeds over 1900 MHz than Verizon and Sprint EVDO, so I'm not sure there will be a lot of complaining. I'm just saying you'll get a much, much better experience with AWS HSPA+ (and LTE).

Do you think that T-Mobile's position in number of subscribers and number of people with unlocked phones on the network could benefit in this case?

Depends on where the subscribers are. If they sign three million new members on AWS, it's a huge benefit for them and the users. If they sign three million new members who bring 1900-restricted devices, and they're all in NYC, Chicago, and LA, well... depends.

T-Mo 1900 is a screaming deal at $70/month for all-you-can-eat, but it's not gonna set the world on fire speedwise. I'd rather go with AWS for the extra bandwidth.

 

[TJWINS]

The PCC filings are all there to read. In many major cities, like NY, you're looking at spreads as small as 5 MHz. If you want to share a tower connection with 1,000 other HSPA+42 iPhones with a 5 MHz-wide 1900 MHz downstream, be my guest. I'll stay on AWS before doing that.



Most 1900 MHz spectrum they have comes from the AT&T transaction. Prior to that, they owned very little frequency spread in those ranges, only enough to provide 2G voice and GPRS. That's why they bid on AWS in the first place.



Yes, and that's where the 10 MHz wide gaps come in -- 5 MHz of T-Mo plus 5 MHz of former AT&T frequency.

This tends to be concentrated in rural areas, with fewer users, and could be entirely tolerable assuming a combo of good coverage and low population density. That will be a minority of users however.



That's what allowed them to go nationwide on 1900 in the first place. Otherwise, they'd have to shut down ALL 2G service to offer 1900 HSPA+ (and I don't believe the FCC would allow that).

Net-net, service will improve for iPhone users versus EDGE/GPRS, but the experience on 1900 is going to be nowhere near as good as on AWS HSPA+ or AWS LTE.

So what would guarantee that our AWS devices will automatically pick up the 1700 band as priority while the 1900 band is live? The last thing we need is our AWS devices throttling down to 3G should it recognize the 1900MHz band after refarm.

 

[Winterfang]

All three High End phones will have LTE. I think they just don't say it, because is to be expected.

 

[brmiller1976]

So what would guarantee that our AWS devices will automatically pick up the 1700 band as priority while the 1900 band is live? The last thing we need is our AWS devices throttling down to 3G should it recognize the 1900MHz band after refarm.

The definition of AWS is 1700/2100. AWS by definition will only use 1700 for the downstream channel.

 

[eric12341]

So what would guarantee that our AWS devices will automatically pick up the 1700 band as priority while the 1900 band is live? The last thing we need is our AWS devices throttling down to 3G should it recognize the 1900MHz band after refarm.

They will pick up whatever provides a stronger signal. If you have strong AWS coverage then you'll continue to receive that. If you have weak AWS coverage (like me because of trees around my house) then the PCS signal will be received.

All three High End phones will have LTE. I think they just don't say it, because is to be expected.

It's mostly because the LTE bands in those devices are unknown but rumor has it they will support VZ,AT&T and upcoming T-mobile LTE.

 

[fatclue_98]

Guys, you may all be right or wrong. It depends where you live. Here in Miami, T-Mo is already on LTE. I'm on Straight Talk with the T-Mo sim and my speed tests show that my 1900 phone (on EDGE) is consistently faster than my wife's AT&T-branded HSDPA phone which is on the AT&T sim. I'm guessing that it's traffic related since AT&T just rolled out their LTE in this area too. Has anybody experienced this in another part of the country?

 

[brmiller1976]

Here in Miami, T-Mo is already on LTE.

I doubt it, unless there's some experimental tower and experimental phone -- I don't believe there are any LTE handsets out there right now that support T-Mo's LTE radio.

I'm on Straight Talk with the T-Mo sim and my speed tests show that my 1900 phone (on EDGE) is consistently faster than my wife's AT&T-branded HSDPA phone which is on the AT&T sim.

I'd put that down to faulty testing software (or the smaller possibility that the HSDPA tower your wife is hanging off of is severely overloaded or otherwise defective).

 

[fatclue_98]

I doubt it, unless there's some experimental tower and experimental phone -- I don't believe there are any LTE handsets out there right now that support T-Mo's LTE radio.



I'd put that down to faulty testing software (or the smaller possibility that the HSDPA tower your wife is hanging off of is severely overloaded or otherwise defective).

I-95 is littered with billboards. Radio ads are played to the point of puking. Enough sign holders on street corners to drive the unemployment rate down in Florida and you think it's an experimental tower? Whether or not there are any LTE-capable sets available, the system is up and running. So is AT&T and even MetroPOS. Sprint is the only carrier without LTE in South Flori-Duh. As for the testing, I've swapped sims on both phones and achieved the same results.

To put it plainly, EDGE on T-Mobile is faster than AT&T 3G in Miami, Florida. I don't know about Cowpattie, Minnesota or wherever you are, but that's the way it is here.

 

[brmiller1976]

Those billboards and ads are for HSPA+. No LTE is going online until 2013 at the earliest.

EDGE on T-Mobile is faster than AT&T 3G in Miami, Florida

I am not a believer in absolutes, so I will say that I am merely 99.99999999% certain this is simply untrue -- unless AT&T's network is about 14,000% oversubscribed down there, or they're using dial-up modems for backhaul. EDGE's top theoretical speeds are only about 1/4 that of the most basic GSM 3G/WCDMA from five years ago.